8640 réponses à ce sujet

[Helios969]

Cool...have to go to work now, but I'll definitely be checking this thread out.

[Grieving Natashina]

Cool...have to go to work now, but I'll definitely be checking this thread out.

Read up over the next few days when you can.  There is a lot in this thread and the conversation has taken some very odd turns.  Have a good day at work!

[Lulupab]

Ah, a good visual representation.  Thanks Lulu.  I can tell I'm getting a little tired.  

 

Time to refuse on coffee.  I have things to do in a few hours.

 

In my first play through I really got angry during that quest. When justice told me "everyone one them will feel Justice burn" I was like
YES! they will BURN" but that was just a moment of anger and I calmed down while justice didn't... not without Hawke's help anyway.

 

Have you ever tried being angry as Hawke in that scene? Here check this out, see what Hawke says after Justice says he will kill all templars. You must see it. I actually chose this option when I was angry

 

[Grieving Natashina]

I've played both the most fanatic hardcore Mage Freedom Fighter and the most staunch supporter of the Templars before (taking it the extra mile and playing as a Templar spec.)  I wanted to see the game from both sides, and I'm glad I did.  

 

I've picked the same answer as your video clip did on my Mage Freedom Fighter session as well.

[EmissaryofLies]

Alrik was bald lest we forget.

He couldn't help his immorality. It was only exacerbated by the fact that he was a Kirkwallian Templar. Whom are inherently evil as prerequisites to their training.

[Aimi]

For the extremists among the pro-Mages?  A man cackling with glee as he beats and rapes a mage repeatedly.   While his friends chuckle about the latest mage they killed and the latest mage they made Tranquil.  Just missing a twirling mustache and surely they crave "UNLIMITED POWAH!" over the mages as well.  
 
In case you haven't been able to tell, I'm not a pro-extremist, no matter if it's robe or skirt.  
 
I think both of the extremists in these factions are letting fear do more talking than reason.

 
Oh yes. I can tell.
 
Ordinary Men is one of the most important history books ever written. It discussed the experience of individual members of the German 101st Reserve Police Battalion, a formation of reservists and policemen that participated in the Final Solution in Poland in 1941 and 1942. The conclusions in the book were frankly earth-shattering when it came out, and I won't try to summarize them here. But there were a couple of real psychos and sadists in the group. I imagine somebody like Lieutenant Hartwig Gnade being cut-and-pasted into a Templar uniform for anti-Circle propaganda.
 

Even before the shooting began, First Lieutenant Gnade had personally picked out some twenty to twenty-five elderly Jews. They were exclusively men with full beards. Gnade made the old men crawl on the ground in the area before the grave. Before he gave them the order to crawl, they had to undress. While the totally naked Jews crawled, First Lieutenant Gnade screamed to those around, "Where are my non-commissioned officers? Don't you have any clubs yet?" The non-commissioned officers went to the edge of the forest, fetched themselves clubs, and vigorously beat the Jews with them.

The title, "ordinary men", makes for a fairly dramatic link to all this talk of "mundanes" and "non-magic users", I think.

[Grieving Natashina]

Hmm, good point and some food for thought.  

[DKJaigen]

And that is roughly the truth.

 

There are no perfect systems. Mages, by their nature, must be restricted. No matter what restrictions you put in place, there will ALWAYS be someone who will resent them.

And they will fight back.

 

Do our laws and police force prevent crime? No. Does our trial/punishment system do a good job in stopping the people from committing crime? No.

Does that mean it's a failure?

 

At the end of the day, there is no system that could put in place that would satisfy everyone. And unless everyone is satisfied, there is always someone who will cause problems.

 

A system should allow all groups to thrive and prosper. but this is not the case. the chantry is acting like  a parasite to the mages. a System where one group actively discrimination another group is vulnerable from outside influence  . or do you believe a demonic invasion is just coincidence when the only group of people suddenly is no longer available. and at the same time templars are sniffing red lyrium. 

 

I know your a fan of WH40k and you like mirror the templars to the imperium but imperium is stupid and losing the battle.

[Grieving Natashina]

I agree, ideally that would be the goal.  Yet, as Sara pointed out in another thread, a compromise is going to make at least some people unhappy.  That's just the way it is.  The question that has been hovering around the thread for awhile is:  What would you do?  Keep the current system and try to restore order?  Keep the current system with some changes?  Or have a new system all together?  

 

For example, to sum up several posts I've made in here on the subject: I liked the way Rivain's system seemed to work for years. Allowing mages to have families and influence in society, have more personal freedoms, but with some minor Chantry oversight to make sure no one got out of hand as well as an agreement to aid the nation's templars when required.   That works in my opinion, but there are many conflicting ones in the thread.

[The Elder King]

Cole was left to die of starvation and dehydration. Doesn't matter if it was done on purpose or not it was done and the templars just-oh well one less mage. Hell they didn't even really start looking into the murders until a templar was killed. Oh well a few less mages. Not really people dying so what.

 
As far as I recall Cole didn't kill any templars.

Spoiler

He killed a female mage in the first chapter, then we saw the assassination attempt to the Divine, and then Rhys being called by Lambert.

 

Alrik was bald lest we forget.He couldn't help his immorality. It was only exacerbated by the fact that he was a Kirkwallian Templar. Whom are inherently evil as prerequisites to their training.

Thrask and Keran were recruited in Kirkwall and they weren't evil.

[Cat Lance]

And that is roughly the truth.
 
There are no perfect systems. Mages, by their nature, must be restricted. No matter what restrictions you put in place, there will ALWAYS be someone who will resent them.
And they will fight back.
 
Do our laws and police force prevent crime? No. Does our trial/punishment system do a good job in stopping the people from committing crime? No.
Does that mean it's a failure?
 
At the end of the day, there is no system that could put in place that would satisfy everyone. And unless everyone is satisfied, there is always someone who will cause problems.

Except that when our system is not working we do try to correct the busted parts.

Also, there is no viable reason not to correct the acknowledged issues. I thought that we as a group had gotten to a fairly decent place together, last night.

[TheKomandorShepard]

It's late, and I'm a little bored.

 

I think I can sum up what all the more fervent pro-Templar folk think that mages are going to do the second they have some personal freedoms.

 

 

You may joke about it but it rly leads to that not 5 second after geting freedom but year or few and mages will start shift toward tevinter mindset.

[JimboGee]

From what I know of the whole situation, mages started this whole darkspawn business. They tried to get into heaven and god kicked them out ( I wonder where I've read that before) Do I think all mages are bad people? No. Do I think that any type of super human power needs to be controlled? Absolutley. Templars are protecting mages from themselves. People dont like being protected from themselves because they think they are fine. until it hits the fan.

 

I'm not against mages but i see the logic behind why they do what they do.

[Mistic]

 As far as I recall Cole didn't kill any templars.

Spoiler

He killed a female mage in the first chapter, then we saw the assassination attempt to the Divine, and then Rhys being called by Lambert.

 

True. Still a good example of why the Seekers should have checked the Templars better. They left a young mage to rot, then covered it up, then mages started getting killed and only when the Lord Seeker takes control of the Tower is the matter investigated in a decent way.

[Lulupab]

From what I know of the whole situation, mages started this whole darkspawn business. They tried to get into heaven and god kicked them out ( I wonder where I've read that before) Do I think all mages are bad people? No. Do I think that any type of super human power needs to be controlled? Absolutley. Templars are protecting mages from themselves. People dont like being protected from themselves because they think they are fine. until it hits the fan.

 

I'm not against mages but i see the logic behind why they do what they do.

 

There is nothing wrong with this idea but there is thing called going too far in name of "protection". Mages have save the world several times, from the blight, Qunari etc... There was no hope in such situations and mages turned the tide. That said Thedas should be much kinder to its mages. The restrictions should be there but the mages should be able to live properly. Hence the mages who rebelled want an Autonomous circle not absolute freedom. To govern themselves and only be policed by Templars.

[DKJaigen]

From what I know of the whole situation, mages started this whole darkspawn business. They tried to get into heaven and god kicked them out ( I wonder where I've read that before) Do I think all mages are bad people? No. Do I think that any type of super human power needs to be controlled? Absolutley. Templars are protecting mages from themselves. People dont like being protected from themselves because they think they are fine. until it hits the fan.

 

I'm not against mages but i see the logic behind why they do what they do.

 

We only know that the magisters reached the golden/black city what happened afterwards is something we dont know. it could be very well that they are not responsible for the darkspawn. As for needing protection. if i was a mage i sacrafice a lot of my freedoms personal growth and knowledge for it and when **** does hit the fan the templars cowards as they simply run away and leave you to die. That doesn't sound to appealing.

[DKJaigen]

You may joke about it but it rly leads to that not 5 second after geting freedom but year or few and mages will start shift toward tevinter mindset.

 

Nope

[TheKomandorShepard]

Nope

yep there is reason why mages become as they are in tevinter twice after winning independence

[Lulupab]

yep there is reason why mages become as they are in tevinter twice after winning independence

 

Tevinter was always like that since its existence. They did not "become" anything, they just were.

[Grieving Natashina]

...

 

Cat, Helios,  if you're reading this, that's TKS.  He's pretty much the one of the only posters active on either side of this debate on the DA forums that thinks that "kill 'em all" is the best solution.   I assure you that's he's a minority here.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Tevinter was always like that since its existence. They did not "become" anything, they just were.

Nope they was part of chantry before and after they broke we had and "evil" empire continues...

 

 

...

 

Cat, if you're reading this, that's TKS.  He's pretty much the one of the only posters active on either side of this debate on the DA forums that thinks that "kill 'em all" is the best solution.   

 

Because it is there is a little to argue that it is only certain and most effective way to achieve safety and stability so well if you refuse to see that it is your call... 

[Grieving Natashina]

<sigh> 

 

I wasn't stating how right or wrong you were in your opinion.  It's your opinion, and I know that nothing will change that.  I mostly learned to agree to disagree with you some time ago.  I was simply stating a fact for the newcomers.  I'm too tired to debate with you right now.

[TheKomandorShepard]

<sigh>

 

I wasn't stating how right or wrong you were in your opinion.  It's your opinion, and I know that nothing will change that.  I mostly learned to agree to disagree with you some time ago.  I was simply stating a fact for the newcomers.  I'm too tired to debate with you right now.

Hah thats not opinion thats fact and there is little to add if you kill assassin s/he won't kill you same with mage if you kill mage s/he won't cause disaster or harm anyone those are facts.

[Grieving Natashina]

Whatever TKS.  Anyhow, newcomers, just be aware of his stances if you choose to debate with him.

 

I'm going to bed.  

[dragonflight288]

There is nothing wrong with this idea but there is thing called going too far in name of "protection". Mages have save the world several times, from the blight, Qunari etc... There was no hope in such situations and mages turned the tide. That said Thedas should be much kinder to its mages. The restrictions should be there but the mages should be able to live properly. Hence the mages who rebelled want an Autonomous circle not absolute freedom. To govern themselves and only be policed by Templars.

 

This WAS the original Nevarran Accord. Most modern templars don't follow it, however. Heck, even Gregoire seems to have far more power than the Nevarran Accord granted templars.