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[JimboGee]

 

I will equate it to a child who tries to put their hand near a fire. "No" shrieks the parent " dont do that you'll hurt yourself". "Why?" Asks the child. "Because it's hot and will burn you" explains the parent. "You're just trying to control me I know what I'm doing" Cries the child. The child then burns their hand on the fire and then goes running to the parent. 

 

I'm not saying I agree with making them tranquil but mages do get constantly warned about the dangers. If someone has been warned several times about the consequences to their actions and doesn't listen, can you really have sympathy for them?

[The Elder King]

True. Still a good example of why the Seekers should have checked the Templars better. They left a young mage to rot, then covered it up, then mages started getting killed and only when the Lord Seeker takes control of the Tower is the matter investigated in a decent way.

Oh, I agree with this (Kirkwall was another case when Seekers should've intervened). I was just pointing put that templars/Seekers didn't start investigate because templars got killed.

[dragonflight288]

Oh, I agree with this (Kirkwall was another case when Seekers should've intervened). I was just pointing put that templars/Seekers didn't start investigate because templars got killed.

 

We don't know if this is the reason or not. If templars were killed, which they were, and no one was punished, that would be plenty of reason to have Seekers come in anyway. 

 

Either way, the Seekers were not doing their job. 

[Inprea]

I will equate it to a child who tries to put their hand near a fire. "No" shrieks the parent " dont do that you'll hurt yourself". "Why?" Asks the child. "Because it's hot and will burn you" explains the parent. "You're just trying to control me I know what I'm doing" Cries the child. The child then burns their hand on the fire and then goes running to the parent. 

 

I'm not saying I agree with making them tranquil but mages do get constantly warned about the dangers. If someone has been warned several times about the consequences to their actions and doesn't listen, can you really have sympathy for them?

 

That only applies if they get burned. They can point to the Warden Commander who if a mage and played benevolent does a lot of good. There is also Hawke's father and Aneran the healer if they know of them. Mages living free outside the circle and apparently doing a lot of good. Then there is the fact that mages are used during war. So it isn't like the parent is telling the child not to touch a hot stove. It'd be more like saying. Only touch the hot stove when I tell you to.

[Helios969]

...Yeah I'm reading. I have to admit I felt like that playing DA2...out of shear frustration. I just wanted to get out of the way and let Meredith and Orsino have at one another.

Cat, Helios, if you're reading this, that's TKS. He's pretty much the one of the only posters active on either side of this debate on the DA forums that thinks that "kill 'em all" is the best solution. I assure you that's he's a minority here.

[Lulupab]

I will equate it to a child who tries to put their hand near a fire. "No" shrieks the parent " dont do that you'll hurt yourself". "Why?" Asks the child. "Because it's hot and will burn you" explains the parent. "You're just trying to control me I know what I'm doing" Cries the child. The child then burns their hand on the fire and then goes running to the parent. 

 

I'm not saying I agree with making them tranquil but mages do get constantly warned about the dangers. If someone has been warned several times about the consequences to their actions and doesn't listen, can you really have sympathy for them?

 

The number of mages becoming an abomination/blood mage because they were desperate for several reasons far outnumbers those who were not careful. My point was to reduce that desperateness as much as possible by making circles autonomous and more free in general but keeping the necessary restrictions.

[The Elder King]

We don't know if this is the reason or not. If templars were killed, which they were, and no one was punished, that would be plenty of reason to have Seekers come in anyway. 
 
Either way, the Seekers were not doing their job.

When were templars killed in Asunder? I might remembering something wrong.

[dragonflight288]

When were templars killed in Asunder? I might remembering something wrong.

 

I misread, and was thinking of DA2 and Kirkwall. Sorry. 

 

The Seekers didn't do their job either way in the end. 

[Lulupab]

I misread, and was thinking of DA2 and Kirkwall. Sorry. 

 

The Seekers didn't do their job either way in the end. 

 

The Seekers are much harsher than Templars when getting recruits. Unlike Templars who recruit anyone who can fight The Seekers only pick from capable and sane Templars, or so they claim. Given that Lambert was the leader of whole organization I say Seekers are quite incapable of doing anything properly or doing their job. 

[The Elder King]

The Seekers are much harsher than Templars when getting recruits. Unlike Templars who recruit anyone who can fight The Seekers only pick from capable and sane Templars, or so they claim. Given that Lambert was the leader of whole organization I say Seekers are quite incapable of doing anything properly or doing their job.

Cassandra disagrees with you. Seekers aren't recruited exclusively between templars' ranks.
And Lambert being the leader doesn't mean anything about the Seekers' capability. And he was in my opinion capable enough.

[AresKeith]

Alrik was bald lest we forget.

He couldn't help his immorality. It was only exacerbated by the fact that he was a Kirkwallian Templar. Whom are inherently evil as prerequisites to their training.

Implying all Kirkwall Templars are evil

[Cat Lance]

...
 
Cat, Helios,  if you're reading this, that's TKS.  He's pretty much the one of the only posters active on either side of this debate on the DA forums that thinks that "kill 'em all" is the best solution.   I assure you that's he's a minority here.

I'm not really sure how to respond to this. That is, being treated as an uninvested newb who needs coaxing to stick around. I know probably lone of you, besides Lotion, know me. I don't expect you to. But man is that weird!

So, let's just say, despite an extended hiatus that I'll sum up as life/**** happens, I'm vested and highly familiar with how the bio forums work as a group.

So, I don't need posts trying to talk me into staying around. No worries, I'm unlikely to go anywhere.

Feel free to pm me if I start to lock horns with someone you know is unreasonably set on something. No need to end up in needless and potentially frustrating arguments.

----

Back on topic!

When I left last night it seemed we were in a decent place on the reformation issue?

[TK514]

The number of mages becoming an abomination/blood mage because they were desperate for several reasons far outnumbers those who were not careful. My point was to reduce that desperateness as much as possible by making circles autonomous and more free in general but keeping the necessary restrictions.

I've been wondering about this.

Blood Magic out of desperation, I get. An "I'm going to die, breaking the law is the least of my problems..." Thought process. You've got everything to gain and nothing to lose.

But Abominations? No, I don't get that at all. What's the upside? Where's the appeal in becoming a melted wax horror meat puppet for some Fade entity? You might as well be dead.

[Xilizhra]

I've been wondering about this.

Blood Magic out of desperation, I get. An "I'm going to die, breaking the law is the least of my problems..." Thought process. You've got everything to gain and nothing to lose.

But Abominations? No, I don't get that at all. What's the upside? Where's the appeal in becoming a melted wax horror meat puppet for some Fade entity? You might as well be dead.

Erm, it doesn't really happen on purpose. It's more a side effect, sometimes, of huge amounts of stress in an area with a weakened Veil.

[Cat Lance]

Implying all Kirkwall Templars are evil

I think they were joking.

[Cat Lance]

I've been wondering about this.
Blood Magic out of desperation, I get. An "I'm going to die, breaking the law is the least of my problems..." Thought process. You've got everything to gain and nothing to lose.
But Abominations? No, I don't get that at all. What's the upside? Where's the appeal in becoming a melted wax horror meat puppet for some Fade entity? You might as well be dead.

  

Erm, it doesn't really happen on purpose. It's more a side effect, sometimes, of huge amounts of stress in an area with a weakened Veil.

I think it's also a sign of just how much some of the mages want to see an end to the current system. They realise they are trading their life for the chance to free others. Even if it is terrible logic.

[Mistic]

Cassandra disagrees with you. Seekers aren't recruited exclusively between templars' ranks.
And Lambert being the leader doesn't mean anything about the Seekers' capability. And he was in my opinion capable enough.

 

In theory, yes, they are recruited among the templars. It's even stated in Dawn of the Seeker. For all we know, Cassandra might have been a very promising Templar trainee (like Alistair; we know there's some kind of training before making it official) who caught the eye of a Seeker talent scout. In fact, after what happened to her brother, I think it makes more sense for her to start heading to the Templars until someone told her about the Seekers.

 

Also, they're supposed to be chosen for their loyalty to the Chantry and the Divine. The one who was examining Lambert on that part must have been asleep. However, I agree with you, he treid to do his job. At first. Who cared about the assassinations in the White Spire? The Templars? No, it was Lambert. Who guessed correctly that Cole was not what he claimed to be? The mages? No, it was Lambert.

 

However: who discovered the conspiracy behind the assassination attempt on the Divine? The Lord Seeker? No, nobody did and nobody has done it yet.

 

 

[KainD]

But Abominations? No, I don't get that at all. What's the upside? Where's the appeal in becoming a melted wax horror meat puppet for some Fade entity? You might as well be dead.

 

That's a suicide bomber mostly.

[TK514]

I think it's also a sign of just how much some of the mages want to see an end to the current system. They realise they are trading their life for the chance to free others. Even if it is terrible logic.

Terrible logic is right. It's directly counter-productive. Mages will never be successful as free and part of the world without the trust and acceptance of the masses. Abominations foster the exact opposite, and just serve to reenforce the Templar position.

[Inprea]

I've been wondering about this.

Blood Magic out of desperation, I get. An "I'm going to die, breaking the law is the least of my problems..." Thought process. You've got everything to gain and nothing to lose.

But Abominations? No, I don't get that at all. What's the upside? Where's the appeal in becoming a melted wax horror meat puppet for some Fade entity? You might as well be dead.

 

Well in a situation where you're about to die you have three choices.

 

1. Don't go abomination and hope that the powers that be spare you somehow. I can see a person with a strong faith or idealism going this path.

 

2. Don't go abomination because it's unethical. If you do manage to survive you're going to hurt a lot of people possibly innocent.

 

or

 

3. Go abomination because you're dead anyway and you might as well take as many of those jerks with you!

 

Three isn't about surviving it's about making those who hurt you pay. I would personally probably go with 1 due to my faith and the nurturing my parents gave me. However, if I went with my nature I'd go with 3. If I'm probably going to die I want to make those who took my life suffer as much as possible. I am not a good person to be left holding a dead man's switch.

[The Elder King]

In theory, yes, they are recruited among the templars. It's even stated in Dawn of the Seeker. For all we know, Cassandra might have been a very promising Templar trainee (like Alistair; we know there's some kind of training before making it official) who caught the eye of a Seeker talent scout. In fact, after what happened to her brother, I think it makes more sense for her to start heading to the Templars until someone told her about the Seekers.
 
Also, they're supposed to be chosen for their loyalty to the Chantry and the Divine. The one who was examining Lambert on that part must have been asleep. However, I agree with you, he treid to do his job. At first. Who cared about the assassinations in the White Spire? The Templars? No, it was Lambert. Who guessed correctly that Cole was not what he claimed to be? The mages? No, it was Lambert.
 
However: who discovered the conspiracy behind the assassination attempt on the Divine? The Lord Seeker? No, nobody did and nobody has done it yet.

Cassandra isn't shown to possess templar abilities though.
As for Lambert, he wasn't even recruited by the normal templar ranks. He's from Tevinter. We don't know if he immediately became a Seeker, and I think it's likely that he was recruited before Teh current divine rose to position.
We don't know who Lambert sent to investigate the assassination attempt, or how difficult might be in finding the culprit.

[TK514]

Well in a situation where you're about to die you have three choices.
 
1. Don't go abomination and hope that the powers that be spare you somehow. I can see a person with a strong faith or idealism going this path.
 
2. Don't go abomination because it's unethical. If you do manage to survive you're going to hurt a lot of people possibly innocent.
 
or
 
3. Go abomination because you're dead anyway and you might as well take as many of those jerks with you!
 
Three isn't about surviving it's about making those who hurt you pay. I would personally probably go with 1 due to my faith and the nurturing my parents gave me. However, if I went with my nature I'd go with 3. If I'm probably going to die I want to make those who took my life suffer as much as possible. I am not a good person to be left holding a dead man's switch.

So Orsino, basically.

[Inprea]

So Orsino, basically.

 

Pretty much yes. The issue I have with Orsino is he self destructed with allies near by. He not only gave up on his survival but theirs as well.

[Master Warder Z]

Pretty much yes. The issue I have with Orsino is he self destructed with allies near by. He not only gave up on his survival but theirs as well.

 

The issue i hold with Orsino is that not only was the man an incompetent blood mage, he went out of his way to escalate Kirkwall's problems at every given chance.

 

._. also it is whom the SN suggests...you go to register games and this happens...

[The Elder King]

The issue i hold with Orsino is that not only was the man an incompetent blood mage, he went out of his way to escalate Kirkwall's problems at every given chance.
 
._. also it is whom the SN suggests...you go to register games and this happens...

What happened? Did your account get cancelled?