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[TheKomandorShepard]

Are event described in WoT true part of history or just like codex entry?

[Hellion Rex]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Are event described in WoT true part of history or just like codex entry?

I would say that they are probably the most accurate information we have at the moment.

[Silfren]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Are event described in WoT true part of history or just like codex entry?

I think we're supposed to take them the same way as codex entries.

[durasteel]

Info in WoT comes in two broad categories: history book, and in-character. The history book text is just that--it reads like a simple statement of fact. I would suggest that this is in fact "probably the most accurate information we have at the moment." The in-character bits are letters, journal entries, excerpts from Genitivi, etc. I think it is fair to say of these passages that "we're supposed to take them the same way as codex entries."

[MisterJB]

The main text is written from a neutral viewpoint that uses phrases such as "The Tevinters claim that Dumat taught the first Magister blood magic" to show that what is written is simply the belief system of the different thedosians.
Meanwhile, there are also codex-like entries that are written from the viewpoint of thedosians and those are the ones we can take with a grain of salt.

[The Elder King]

I haven't read WoT, and I don't know how exactly the part about the Dales-Orlais conflict is described.
My opinion is that until we know more (if we'll ever do), both sides were at fault for wha happened.

Modifié par hhh89, 19 février 2014 - 04:25 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

So informations in WoT are rather that what peoples in certain cultures belive rather than actual truth and shouldn't be taken as word of god if i understand correctly?

[durasteel]

So that we’re all on the same page, here is the relevant material from The World of Thedas.

     When Andraste and her Cult of the Maker rose to prominence, they brought a successful war against the Imperium, forcing the empire to pull back its borders. Led by the controversial elven disciple Shartan, enslaved elves of Tevinter rose up to aid Andraste’s cause. For their service, the elves were freed and given the Dales, a land in southern Orlais, and a new capital called Halamshiral. The exodus to their new homeland was called the Long Walk.
     In the dales, the elves attempted to rebuild their culture and once again worship their pantheon of lost gods. After generations under Tevinter, much of the old ways were gone, even some of their gods’ names. The elves practices what they could remember and adopted new beliefs to fill in the gaps.
     Relations with humans remained hostile, and the elven rejection of the Maker became cause for Chantry ire. The elves founded a legion, known as the Emerald Knights, to protect their land from human intrusion. Tensions mounted, and when a small elven raiding party attacked the human village of Red Crossing, the Chantry called an Exalted March to crush the elven people and conquer the Dales in a series of brutal battles.

Timeline

-165 Ancient – For their service in battle against the Imperium, Maferath gives the elves a new homeland in the Dales. The Long Walk begins as a massive influx of elves settle the region.

2:9 Glory – Elven forces capture the Olesian town of Red Crossing. The atrocities they are said to commit enrage humans across Thedas.

2:10 Glory – The elves capture Montsimmard, a major strategic settlement for Orlais, then march on Val Royeaux.

2:10 Glory – Divine Renata I calls for a holy war against the elves. This becomes known as the Exalted March of the Dales.

Modifié par durasteel, 19 février 2014 - 04:55 .

[The Elder King]

If the first isn't written by a character, I'd say both are valid. As I said before, we need more info on what really happened.

Modifié par hhh89, 19 février 2014 - 04:44 .

[durasteel]

While I agree we need more info, some things do stand out. The underlying dispute seems to be territorial, between the Dalish and the Orlesians (the "human intrusion" that prompted the formation of the Emerald Knights.) This conflict escalated and a "small raiding party" of elves attacked Red Crossing, and the elves took Montsimmard.

So far this seems to be the kind of dispute you might see between, for example, Ferelden and Orlais. At this point, though, the Chantry steps in, apparently because of their ire that the elves refused to convert to the Cult of the Maker. Their response was the eradication of the Dalish nation.

[The Elder King]

No, if the elves conquered Montsmimmard and were really marching towards Val Rouyeaux, the Chantry didn't step up because the elves were refusing to convert. They step up because the elves were threatening them directly, expecially based on the atrocities that the elves might've committed. It's completely reasonable that the Chantry stepped up to defend humanity in this case: If the events on the timeline are true, the elves were about to conquer Orlais; it wouldnt be different from what happened later in the qunari invasion, when the Chantry declared an EM to free the Northern Andrastian countries from the qunari.
If this is what really happened, the elves have their fair share of blame.
That of course don't justify  at all what the Chantry and Orlais did after the victory, which I'm firmly against. But it proved that both sides are at fault for what happened.

Modifié par hhh89, 19 février 2014 - 05:07 .

[durasteel]

The language of the timeline entry, "The atrocities they are said to commit," suggests to me that there was some creative reporting by the Orlesians who were trying to justify their own attacks.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I don't think orlais was wrong in calling an exalted march, considering their territories were being seized one after another and their capital was sacked. If my capital city was sacked, I would want to call any and all resources available to push out and pursue the attackers.

[Cainhurst Crow]

durasteel wrote...

The language of the timeline entry, "The atrocities they are said to commit," suggests to me that there was some creative reporting by the Orlesians who were trying to justify their own attacks.

It also suggests that the elves were commiting atrocities in the city. "said to commit" is not the same thing as "were lied about".

Most likely the raid played out like any other raid by a ideologically opposed group, regardless of race. Men were gathered and slain, women and children brutally attacked and possibly raped by the conquering soliders as a victory ritual. Sites of importance were burned or destroyed, most likely any andrastian symbols were meticulously destroyed and those who fought against such actions brutally killed. Valuables were stolen and supplies ransacked before they withdrew or stayed in their newly aquired territory to use as a new forward base of operation.

Of course there is also a possibility that the atrocities were even worse then that. We don't know, and for all we know they could have been doing actions similar to that of the terrorists who attacked the kenya mall attacks.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 19 février 2014 - 05:17 .

[Iakus]

eluvianix wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Are event described in WoT true part of history or just like codex entry?

I would say that they are probably the most accurate information we have at the moment.

They're as accurate as any researched topic you;ll find in a history book.  The author believes the events to be true and accurate, and researched them thoroughly.  But he may be mistaken or letting preconceived notions cloud his judgement.

[Br3admax]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I don't think orlais was wrong in calling an exalted march, considering their territories were being seized one after another and their capital was sacked. If my capital city was sacked, I would want to call any and all resources available to push out and pursue the attackers.

Yeah I agree, Orlais is completely justified in responding to the attacks from the Dalish. This is one thing that I feel no sympathy for the Dalish towards.

[The Elder King]

durasteel wrote...

The language of the timeline entry, "The atrocities they are said to commit," suggests to me that there was some creative reporting by the Orlesians who were trying to justify their own attacks.

They didn't need any justification. The war started after Red Crossing, and according to the timeline the elves conquered one of Orlais' major cities and were marching toward the capital. I wouldn't say it definitely happen, but war isn't kind, and I wouldn't be surprised if the elves committed those acts. They're not better than humans, and humans proved to not be kind in victory.
regardless of the atrocities, if the timeline is correct the Chantry did nothing wrong in declaring an EM.  The complete annihilation of the Dales and the formation of the alienages isn't something that I approve, but as I said, both sides have faults in this war. 

Modifié par hhh89, 19 février 2014 - 05:21 .

[Hellion Rex]

iakus wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Are event described in WoT true part of history or just like codex entry?

I would say that they are probably the most accurate information we have at the moment.

They're as accurate as any researched topic you;ll find in a history book.  The author believes the events to be true and accurate, and researched them thoroughly.  But he may be mistaken or letting preconceived notions cloud his judgement.

True, perhaps. But we must make do with what we have, considering that no information we have is unbiased. It's the best we have at the moment.

[Jaison1986]

Br3ad wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I don't think orlais was wrong in calling an exalted march, considering their territories were being seized one after another and their capital was sacked. If my capital city was sacked, I would want to call any and all resources available to push out and pursue the attackers.

Yeah I agree, Orlais is completely justified in responding to the attacks from the Dalish. This is one thing that I feel no sympathy for the Dalish towards.

I don't. Orlais have an history of wanting to conquer every nation around them because they feel entitled of doing so. I would root for the Dalish to squish them. They surely had it coming for an long time now.

[Br3admax]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I don't think orlais was wrong in calling an exalted march, considering their territories were being seized one after another and their capital was sacked. If my capital city was sacked, I would want to call any and all resources available to push out and pursue the attackers.

Yeah I agree, Orlais is completely justified in responding to the attacks from the Dalish. This is one thing that I feel no sympathy for the Dalish towards.

I don't. Orlais have an history of wanting to conquer every nation around them because they feel entitled of doing so. I would root for the Dalish to squish them. They surely had it coming for an long time now.

Ah, the "They had is coming," argument. Because that justifies killing innocent people for the country they were born in, and the religion they believe in. 

[durasteel]

The attacks the Orlesians were trying to justify comprised the "human intrusion" that the Dales were trying to defend themselves from. It is interesting that those attacks aren't considered "war" but the attack of a small elven raiding party on a human village is.

[durasteel]

Br3ad wrote...
Ah, the "They had is coming," argument. Because that justifies killing innocent people for the country they were born in, and the religion they believe in. 

The argument seems to be very effective when used against the elves.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Br3ad wrote...


Ah, the "They had is coming," argument. Because that justifies killing innocent people for the country they were born in, and the religion they believe in. 

Wait we are talking about dales , orlais or chantry because this fits to every 3 of them

Simple there is no reason agrgue who was justified because if you want you can justify everything some will accept justification others not. 

If you argue who was clean i can say that no one because we don't have clean organisation or country in dragon age at best we have grey.

If you argue who was blame you can blame everyone you want...

And that was for everyone who try blame elves or chantry or orlais...

[The Elder King]

@Jaison1986: so you'll root for the elves in killing all human in Orlais?

[durasteel]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
I don't think orlais was wrong in calling an exalted march, considering their territories were being seized one after another and their capital was sacked. If my capital city was sacked, I would want to call any and all resources available to push out and pursue the attackers.

I have looked for any indication that Val Royeaux was sacked by the elves. I haven't found it. I don't think it happened.