8640 réponses à ce sujet

[EmissaryofLies]

Implying all Kirkwall Templars are evil

Normally I'd take that and run wild on it, brother.

 

I'll just say that the ones who stood by and did nothing are just as culpable.

 

I do not have the time or patience to explain the troposphere.

[Master Warder Z]

What happened? Did your account get cancelled?

 

Different Machine?

 

Same email though, apparently it created a new machine, and this children is why Account's shouldn't be IP based.

[Master Warder Z]

The issue i hold with Orsino is that not only was the man an incompetent blood mage, he went out of his way to escalate Kirkwall's problems at every given chance.

 

._. also it is whom the SN suggests...you go to register games and this happens...

 

 

The whole "following order's doesn't excuse it" Logic eh?

 

._.

[wcholcombe]

For the extremists among the pro-Mages?  A man cackling with glee as he beats and rapes a mage repeatedly.   While his friends chuckle about the latest mage they killed and the latest mage they made Tranquil.  Just missing a twirling mustache and surely they crave "UNLIMITED POWAH!" over the mages as well.  

 

In case you haven't been able to tell, I'm not a pro-extremist, no matter if it's robe or skirt.  

 

I think both of the extremists in these factions are letting fear do more talking than reason.

You left out the fact that the Divine and the Grand Clerics are all dancing around a burning mage.

[Mistic]

Cassandra isn't shown to possess templar abilities though.

 

Word of God said, much to my surprise, that you do need lyrium to use Templar abilities. I suppose that Alistair could use them without it because he had some lyrium in his blood from the training or took some during DA:O. If Cassandra hasn't drunk lyrium in a while, she shouldn't show Templar abilities.

 

As for Lambert, he wasn't even recruited by the normal templar ranks. He's from Tevinter. We don't know if he immediately became a Seeker, and I think it's likely that he was recruited before Teh current divine rose to position.
We don't know who Lambert sent to investigate the assassination attempt, or how difficult might be in finding the culprit.

 

Sadly, he was the one supposed to investigate, but got distracted because of the whole Tranquility thing. Lambert was at the White Spire because the mage who tried to assassinate the Divine came from there.

 

And yes, it's strange that coming from Tevinter he got so high in the ranks. I'm not suspecting foul play from him, but it was stated that the previous Divine in her last years was in a pretty bad shape. Maybe someone took advantage of it to put a hard-liner with dubious antecedents as Lord Seeker? DA:I promotional messages have hinted at some conspiration behind the events of the game.

 

Through the preview of The Masked Empire we also learnt that the ball where the mage tried to assassin the Divine was a show. Celene wanted the Divine to make a public speech to soothe the tensions and appeal to unity. What a coincidence that an assassin derailed it and the man in charge of the investigation decided to pursue a personal agenda instead of fulfilling his first duty, isn't it?

 

 

 

[Dean_the_Young]

I've been wondering about this.

Blood Magic out of desperation, I get. An "I'm going to die, breaking the law is the least of my problems..." Thought process. You've got everything to gain and nothing to lose.

But Abominations? No, I don't get that at all. What's the upside? Where's the appeal in becoming a melted wax horror meat puppet for some Fade entity? You might as well be dead.

 

Think of it as the reverse side of Tranquility: extreme emotion rather than extreme lack of emotion. Neither is a state people consider normal for being alive, but not everyone considers either the equivalent of death.

[Master Warder Z]

You left out the fact that the Divine and the Grand Clerics are all dancing around a burning mage.

 

 

Sound i put on my "fine ol solution" squidbilles T-shirt?

[Dean_the_Young]

   I think it's also a sign of just how much some of the mages want to see an end to the current system. They realise they are trading their life for the chance to free others. Even if it is terrible logic.

 

Meh- I can't think of anyone besides Anders merging with Justice who took that as a rationalization. Wanting power, either in  a desperate bid to live (desperation) or to take as many Templars down as possible (spite) seems to be more common.

[wcholcombe]

This WAS the original Nevarran Accord. Most modern templars don't follow it, however. Heck, even Gregoire seems to have far more power than the Nevarran Accord granted templars. 

How exactly does Gregoire have far more power--from the in game portrayal Wynne and the mages are free to leave the tower to help the Warden without so much as a by you leave to Gregoire.  Wynne doesn't even ask Gregoire's permission to travel with the Warden, she just informs Irving she is going.

 

Also in the Calling, the mages of the circle are able to meet with the Architect and even come out and intercept Maric and company without a templar in sight.

 

The biggest failing is this debate is the vast overselling  of what the kirkwall circle represents compared to other circles, and the inane stupid idea that the Templar crackdown in response to kirkwall and the fleeing of apostates from circles following it, is in any way some idea of the norm.

[EmissaryofLies]

Four hundred pages!

 

celebrate good times, come on!

[wcholcombe]

When were templars killed in Asunder? I might remembering something wrong.

Cole killed Templars when freeing Rhys. but that is all I am aware of.

[wcholcombe]

   I think it's also a sign of just how much some of the mages want to see an end to the current system. They realise they are trading their life for the chance to free others. Even if it is terrible logic.

From Rhyss's portrayal of being tempted, it is an extremely tempting offer of all the power they will ever need.  Or at least that is more or less how it appeared to him in Asunder.

[Dean_the_Young]

How exactly does Gregoire have far more power--from the in game portrayal Wynne and the mages are free to leave the tower to help the Warden without so much as a by you leave to Gregoire.  Wynne doesn't even ask Gregoire's permission to travel with the Warden, she just informs Irving she is going.

 

Also in the Calling, the mages of the circle are able to meet with the Architect and even come out and intercept Maric and company without a templar in sight.

 

The biggest failing is this debate is the vast overselling  of what the kirkwall circle represents compared to other circles, and the inane stupid idea that the Templar crackdown in response to kirkwall and the fleeing of apostates from circles following it, is in any way some idea of the norm.

 

There's also the fact that we don't really know whatthe Neverran Accord actually entailed: without knowing what rights and privileges the Templars and Mages were supposed to have, we don't really have any grounds to claim whether they've increased their powers or not, let alone if they've done so improperly.

[wcholcombe]

Well in a situation where you're about to die you have three choices.

 

1. Don't go abomination and hope that the powers that be spare you somehow. I can see a person with a strong faith or idealism going this path.

 

2. Don't go abomination because it's unethical. If you do manage to survive you're going to hurt a lot of people possibly innocent.

 

or

 

3. Go abomination because you're dead anyway and you might as well take as many of those jerks with you!

 

Three isn't about surviving it's about making those who hurt you pay. I would personally probably go with 1 due to my faith and the nurturing my parents gave me. However, if I went with my nature I'd go with 3. If I'm probably going to die I want to make those who took my life suffer as much as possible. I am not a good person to be left holding a dead man's switch.

3 is worse than becoming a tranquil.  You are imprisoned in your mind and the abomination has the ability to destroy your enemies as well as your friends and perpetrate far greater evil than your death would have ever been.  I am sorry, this is a thread of logic I cannot follow.  Its basically I the Thedas version of I have a room full of hostages and the cops are about to get me, I might as well take everyone with me ?

[dragonflight288]

How exactly does Gregoire have far more power--from the in game portrayal Wynne and the mages are free to leave the tower to help the Warden without so much as a by you leave to Gregoire.  Wynne doesn't even ask Gregoire's permission to travel with the Warden, she just informs Irving she is going.

 

Also in the Calling, the mages of the circle are able to meet with the Architect and even come out and intercept Maric and company without a templar in sight.

 

The biggest failing is this debate is the vast overselling  of what the kirkwall circle represents compared to other circles, and the inane stupid idea that the Templar crackdown in response to kirkwall and the fleeing of apostates from circles following it, is in any way some idea of the norm.

 

Gregoire has more power in that he can call on the Rite of Annulment, which didn't exist when the Nevarran Accord was written. Irving also states that the Chantry often gets involved with the Circle's decisions, interfering in many ways, and if were simply up to him things would be different. He also makes it clear that being in the Circle (mage origin) is less about learning and progressing and more about surviving. "If you wish to survive, you must learn the rules and know that sometimes sacrifices are necessary."

 

I'm not entirely sure when the Rite of Tranquility was brought into practice, but I don't think that was a punishment that templars could dish out to mages in the original Nevarran Accord either. 

 

Yes, in The Calling, mages could do that, and Irving does grant Wynne leave to leave the tower to accompany the Grey Wardens, but it's also important to note that the Chantry and the Templars in Ferelden are also walking a fine line since after they supported Orlais in The Stolen Throne, they were only a hair away from being kicked out of the country. Ferelden mages have more liberties than other places we've seen (White Spire and Kirkwall.) And even then, it seems to be limited only to those the First Enchanter has given permission to, and the First Enchanter in the Calling

Spoiler

was working with the Architect.

 

We don't know if these freedoms would be granted to anyone else in any other country save Rivain because of political tensions. 

 

And yes, it is hard to separate Kirkwall from other Circle's, but based on Lambert being implied to want the Divine assassinated and replaced with someone more inclined to give him more power, Meredith's almost total seizure of power without any Seekers looking into her, and an unjustified annulment in Rivain, it's also hard not to see the whole system as corrupt at an institutional level. 

[wcholcombe]

Word of God said, much to my surprise, that you do need lyrium to use Templar abilities. I suppose that Alistair could use them without it because he had some lyrium in his blood from the training or took some during DA:O. If Cassandra hasn't drunk lyrium in a while, she shouldn't show Templar abilities.

 

 

Sadly, he was the one supposed to investigate, but got distracted because of the whole Tranquility thing. Lambert was at the White Spire because the mage who tried to assassinate the Divine came from there.

 

And yes, it's strange that coming from Tevinter he got so high in the ranks. I'm not suspecting foul play from him, but it was stated that the previous Divine in her last years was in a pretty bad shape. Maybe someone took advantage of it to put a hard-liner with dubious antecedents as Lord Seeker? DA:I promotional messages have hinted at some conspiration behind the events of the game.

 

Through the preview of The Masked Empire we also learnt that the ball where the mage tried to assassin the Divine was a show. Celene wanted the Divine to make a public speech to soothe the tensions and appeal to unity. What a coincidence that an assassin derailed it and the man in charge of the investigation decided to pursue a personal agenda instead of fulfilling his first duty, isn't it?

Well, he was still a Templar.  And we know that some Templars in Tevinter have the magic canceling abilities of Chantry Templars, just not the majority.  If he was in a high enough position to aid the man who is currently the black divine, I would assume he was such a Templar who had such powers.  Of course this could also tie in with my theory that Lambert has had some blood magic vodoo used on him and is actually a plant by the black divine to destabilize the chantry.

 

I believe Cassandra was a templar first.  I see no reason for her not to have been one.

 

"Seekers are typically chosen from the elite ranks of the templars."  I know it says typically but still.

[wcholcombe]

Gregoire has more power in that he can call on the Rite of Annulment, which didn't exist when the Nevarran Accord was written. Irving also states that the Chantry often gets involved with the Circle's decisions, interfering in many ways, and if were simply up to him things would be different. He also makes it clear that being in the Circle (mage origin) is less about learning and progressing and more about surviving. "If you wish to survive, you must learn the rules and know that sometimes sacrifices are necessary."

 

I'm not entirely sure when the Rite of Tranquility was brought into practice, but I don't think that was a punishment that templars could dish out to mages in the original Nevarran Accord either. 

 

Yes, in The Calling, mages could do that, and Irving does grant Wynne leave to leave the tower to accompany the Grey Wardens, but it's also important to note that the Chantry and the Templars in Ferelden are also walking a fine line since after they supported Orlais in The Stolen Throne, they were only a hair away from being kicked out of the country. Ferelden mages have more liberties than other places we've seen (White Spire and Kirkwall.) And even then, it seems to be limited only to those the First Enchanter has given permission to, and the First Enchanter in the Calling

Spoiler

was working with the Architect.

 

We don't know if these freedoms would be granted to anyone else in any other country save Rivain because of political tensions. 

 

And yes, it is hard to separate Kirkwall from other Circle's, but based on Lambert being implied to want the Divine assassinated and replaced with someone more inclined to give him more power, Meredith's almost total seizure of power without any Seekers looking into her, and an unjustified annulment in Rivain, it's also hard not to see the whole system as corrupt at an institutional level. 

Ok, I still don't get where people think Lambert was behind the assassination attempt. I didn't get that vibe until some of you started spouting it off on here.  Do you serioulsy think a mage would attack the divine because a templar/seeker told him to?

 

The mages in Ferelden were never almost kicked out of the country.  Loghain hates them, but Maric never makes any comments about kicking them out. The Chantry? yes, because it was that stupid grand cleric who refused Maric's request.  Though in her defense, he was asking the chantry to support a rebellion against what was the recognized government of Ferelden at that time.

 

Again, we can no more use Kirkwall as an absolute than you can use Ferelden circle as one.  In Ferelden they had a great many liberties--Irving could take them on retreats, they were able to leave the tower without templar escourts-this also happened in the white spire prior to Kirkwall.

 

The circles in Asunder are a horrible time period to draw upon as an example of typical circle life as Rhys repeatedly, and some pro mages just continue to ignore this, talks of how until recently life in the circle was much better.  He and his master even went to Tevinter without a templar one.

 

So yes, the abuses of power in Kirkwall are appalling and horrible and I would feed the perpetrators to darkspawn if I could, but you cannot throw a blanket over the entire system based off those events.  No more than I would brand most mages as horrible beings based off the actions of Uldred, Anders(hey this is my opinion I am allowed to despise him if I wish), Remille, Quentin, Adrian(hey this is my opinion I am allowed to despise her if I wish), etc.

 

The logic flows both ways, especially when we have examples in DAO, the calling, stolen throne, and references in Asunder to it not being as it is portrayed in Kirkwall or always being as portrayed in Asunder.  Promages like to refer to what the mages were dealing with in Asunder, but you also have to understand the pressures the Templars were under trying to curtail the huge increase in apostates leaving the circle following Kirkwall.

 

Oh yes, and maybe spoilerish, but the 1st enchanter at one of the circles in Orlais routinely has the noble who's land the circle is on over for banquets and dinners that she describes as better then the food the impress serves at her royal banquets, so please lets not continue to think that every circle in Thedas is an exact copy of Kirkwall.

 

This especially amazes me given the irritation certain pro mages feel when another gourp-the dalish- are painted with a broad brush just based off the two clans we have encountered.

[Dean_the_Young]

Gregoire has more power in that he can call on the Rite of Annulment, which didn't exist when the Nevarran Accord was written. Irving also states that the Chantry often gets involved with the Circle's decisions, interfering in many ways, and if were simply up to him things would be different. He also makes it clear that being in the Circle (mage origin) is less about learning and progressing and more about surviving. "If you wish to survive, you must learn the rules and know that sometimes sacrifices are necessary."

 

I'm not entirely sure when the Rite of Tranquility was brought into practice, but I don't think that was a punishment that templars could dish out to mages in the original Nevarran Accord either. 

 

This is putting the cart before the horse. The Templars couldn't annul circles before the Accord because there were no circles or organized mage institutions to annul- they certainly did kill mages as needed, to the degree of what they saw as needed. Similar with Tranquility: it did not exist at the time, which makes it as much a case of 'the Neverran Accords do not prohibit it' as 'Templars claiming more power.'

 

Their developments were reactions to the evolutions of the system brought forth by the accords: limiting everything to the Accord is anachronistic.

 

 

Yes, in The Calling, mages could do that, and Irving does grant Wynne leave to leave the tower to accompany the Grey Wardens, but it's also important to note that the Chantry and the Templars in Ferelden are also walking a fine line since after they supported Orlais in The Stolen Throne, they were only a hair away from being kicked out of the country. Ferelden mages have more liberties than other places we've seen (White Spire and Kirkwall.) And even then, it seems to be limited only to those the First Enchanter has given permission to, and the First Enchanter in the Calling

Spoiler

was working with the Architect.

 

We don't know if these freedoms would be granted to anyone else in any other country save Rivain because of political tensions. 

 

 

We also don't know that they wouldn't. The important aspect isn't what any particular institution is doing at the moment: it's the flexibility that they can do.

 

Not quite sure what your intended argument about the Calling is. Giving mages more freedoms in Ferelden despite recent tensions would be toeing a line in the mages favor, not against it.

 

 

And yes, it is hard to separate Kirkwall from other Circle's, but based on Lambert being implied to want the Divine assassinated and replaced with someone more inclined to give him more power, Meredith's almost total seizure of power without any Seekers looking into her, and an unjustified annulment in Rivain, it's also hard not to see the whole system as corrupt at an institutional level. 

 

 

Where do you find support that Meredith's rise to power never had Seekers looking into her, or that the annullment in Rivain was unjustified?

 

The first requires information that you are not in a place to know in DA2. All we can know is that Meredith was not removed: but at various points it's not clear why she should be, and at others it is not clear removing her would actually improve things.

 

The second takes a twisted version of where the corruption was: the Rivain Circle was in open defiance of the system, and the corruption was in the mages, templars, and local actors who enabled it. Take issue with the rules if you really want, but there was plenty of justification by the rules.

 

 

If you have a hard time separating Kirkwall from other Circles, it's probably because you are blending issues and concerns. Kirkwall was a place where rules were being enforced too harshly, Rivain was a place where the rules were hardly be enforced at all. The only commonality they have was in the Annullment, not the source or execution of the situation thereof.

[Lulupab]

On Anders' rival path sometime in act 3 Justice takes control and directly talks to Hawke. That's the only time he does that outside of the fade. He practically says Hawke stands by and watches people (his brethren if Hawke is mage) to get abducted and tortured for something they might do. Some of you may think he is vengeful but that indeed made sense to me. Lets just be clear that this is situation where we oppress some people and make them miserable because they might do something that'll hurt other people.

 

I wish there was more info on apostates who were trained in circle or anywhere and were free all their life but never hurt anyone. I mean even Morrigan tends to be quite capable of control. My point with all this is its wrong to oppress people for something they might do however since its mages we are talking about its quite OK to force them to be trained. But giving them a lot of freedom if they excel at training. I'm not gonna suggest how much freedom as that is up for debate but much more than they had in old circles, that's for sure.

[wcholcombe]

This is putting the cart before the horse. The Templars couldn't annul circles before the Accord because there were no circles or organized mage institutions to annul- they certainly did kill mages as needed, to the degree of what they saw as needed. Similar with Tranquility: it did not exist at the time, which makes it as much a case of 'the Neverran Accords do not prohibit it' as 'Templars claiming more power.'

 

Their developments were reactions to the evolutions of the system brought forth by the accords: limiting everything to the Accord is anachronistic.

 

 

We also don't know that they wouldn't. The important aspect isn't what any particular institution is doing at the moment: it's the flexibility that they can do.

 

Not quite sure what your intended argument about the Calling is. Giving mages more freedoms in Ferelden despite recent tensions would be toeing a line in the mages favor, not against it.

 

 

Where do you find support that Meredith's rise to power never had Seekers looking into her, or that the annullment in Rivain was unjustified?

 

The first requires information that you are not in a place to know in DA2. All we can know is that Meredith was not removed: but at various points it's not clear why she should be, and at others it is not clear removing her would actually improve things.

 

The second takes a twisted version of where the corruption was: the Rivain Circle was in open defiance of the system, and the corruption was in the mages, templars, and local actors who enabled it. Take issue with the rules if you really want, but there was plenty of justification by the rules.

 

 

If you have a hard time separating Kirkwall from other Circles, it's probably because you are blending issues and concerns. Kirkwall was a place where rules were being enforced too harshly, Rivain was a place where the rules were hardly be enforced at all. The only commonality they have was in the Annullment, not the source or execution of the situation thereof.

In addition regarding Revain, the Seekers didn't invoke ROA until after the mages started refusing to follow orders and return the circle to proper function without the seers. In fact, as WoT states plainly, the ROA wasn't invoked at all until after the mages attacked the "small party of templars" brought over to restore order.

[wcholcombe]

It's late, and I'm a little bored.

 

I think I can sum up what all the more fervent pro-Templar folk think that mages are going to do the second they have some personal freedoms.

 

In defense of those who feel this way-- Uldred-power grab, I don't think it was freedom at all, he wanted to be in charge, Remille-the whole we will turn the whole world into darkspawn except for a few pockets of orlais-mind you he was doing this from inside a circle, Quentin, Anders, Zathrian, Titus, do all to one degree or another support this.

 

But in contrary we have Flemeth-who has never indicated a power grab, Wynne, Morrigan, most of the Dalish, Irving, Merril-I don't agree with her, but she hasn't yet actually done a true power grab or anything, Rhys,

[Cat Lance]

Meh- I can't think of anyone besides Anders merging with Justice who took that as a rationalization. Wanting power, either in  a desperate bid to live (desperation) or to take as many Templars down as possible (spite) seems to be more common.

I'd point out that we don't get let in on the reasons behind most of the Abominations we meet in game. I'm sure some were simply taken, but of those that struck deals in sure the promises or reasonings vary. By no means do I think all are like Anders. However, I do not believe he was he only one with (misplaced) altruism behind it, either.

[Lulupab]

In defense of those who feel this way-- Uldred-power grab, I don't think it was freedom at all, he wanted to be in charge, Remille-the whole we will turn the whole world into darkspawn except for a few pockets of orlais-mind you he was doing this from inside a circle, Quentin, Anders, Zathrian, Titus, do all to one degree or another support this.

 

But in contrary we have Flemeth-who has never indicated a power grab, Wynne, Morrigan, most of the Dalish, Irving, Merril-I don't agree with her, but she hasn't yet actually done a true power grab or anything, Rhys,

 

Zathrian and Anders are product of hate. You hate something too much and commit things based on that hate and it will explode in your face. Quite literally in Anders' case.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

On Anders' rival path sometime in act 3 Justice takes control and directly talks to Hawke. That's the only time he does that outside of the fade. He practically says Hawke stands by and watches people (his brethren if Hawke is mage) to get abducted and tortured for something they might do. Some of you may think he is vengeful but that indeed made sense to me. Lets just be clear that this is situation where we oppress some people and make them miserable because they might do something that'll hurt other people.

But isn't he doing the exact same thing? He thinks all Templars should die because they may abuse a mage. 

[Lulupab]

But isn't he doing the exact same thing? He thinks all Templars should die because they may abuse a mage. 

 

He thinks that way because fellow Templars know about the abuses but do nothing. Also its sort of a payback. Who did it first? Templars. Only the wronged seek Vengeance and Anders was indeed wronged along with other mages.