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[wcholcombe]

Zathrian and Anders are product of hate. You hate something too much and commit things based on that hate and it will explode in your face. Quite literally in Anders' case.

Anders and Zathrian both targeted and affected others who were not even connected to the source of said hate.  Anders-people who happened to be in the Chanty. Zathrian through his own sense of hubris left the curse to affect people completely unconnected to the event that spawned it, generations and people not connected at all, his own clan in fact, and through a power grab used it to extend his life.

 

So yes, they are both examples.

[wcholcombe]

He thinks that way because fellow Templars know about the abuses but do nothing. Also its sort of a payback. Who did it first? Templars. Only the wronged seek Vengeance and Anders was indeed wronged along with other mages.

Anders also had his experiences prior to Kirkwall that were not nearly in line with the experiences of kirkwall.

[EmissaryofLies]

He thinks that way because fellow Templars know about the abuses but do nothing. Also its sort of a payback. Who did it first? Templars. Only the wronged seek Vengeance and Anders was indeed wronged along with other mages.

 

Massive part of it for me. Same reason I don't really give Cullen his due. He stood by alongside the insane Knight Commander and let everything play out and only really stood up when it was the Champ's neck on the line. That is not to say that I would like every Templar dead. Though if it absolutely could not be avoided I would not shed any tears.

[The Elder King]

Word of God said, much to my surprise, that you do need lyrium to use Templar abilities. I suppose that Alistair could use them without it because he had some lyrium in his blood from the training or took some during DA:O.

Gaider actually said that a templar can still use the abilities for a long time. Considering Cassandra's young age, it could be possible that, if she started using lyrium, it wouldn't have passed that much time that she can't use templar abilities.
Plus, templar suffered from withdrawal if they don't  assume lyrium (Alistair is a plothole in this). Why would the Chantry makes one of his men suffer it? Why would Cassandra decide to stop assuming it? Plus, Seekers are knows to (generally) be recruited from elite templars. How can be a young person like cassandra be considered 'elite'?
Furthermore, we haven't see one templar that remained in the order (or became a Seeker) that stop using lyrium. Why would cassandra decide to stop using it and stop having those abilities.
Considering the Seekers can be non-templars (the 'generally' part means that they're not all templars), I haven't seen a single explanation that could lead me to believe she was a templar. Unless it'll be stated by Bioware, I'll be lei e she wasn't a templar.

Cole killed Templars when freeing Rhys. but that is all I am aware of.

 

I was referring to the investigation about the murders in the White spire. Up to the investigation no templar was killed.

[wcholcombe]

Massive part of it for me. Same reason I don't really give Cullen his due. He stood by alongside the insane Knight Commander and let everything play out and only really stood up when it was the Champ's neck on the line. That is not to say that I would like every Templar dead. Though if it absolutely could not be avoided I would not shed any tears.

Ok, by the same token, you could argue that all mages needed to be killed because of the known apostate underground and the blood mages within the circle and oh yeah orsino should have been killed for knowing what Quentin was up to but keeping quiet about it.

 

It circuitous logic that is a really bad way to make a decision.

[Lulupab]

Anders and Zathrian both targeted and affected others who were not even connected to the source of said hate.  Anders-people who happened to be in the Chanty. Zathrian through his own sense of hubris left the curse to affect people completely unconnected to the event that spawned it, generations and people not connected at all, his own clan in fact, and through a power grab used it to extend his life.

 

So yes, they are both examples.

 

I wouldn't say "targeted people not responsible". Sure that particular Chantry in kirkwall was not responsible but the Chantry as an organization was more than responsible. Zathrian also targeted all the "tribe" the humans who raped and kill his children were from. We don't have info but you'd think their tribe mates drink for their glory when they abused the knife ears.

[Dean_the_Young]

He thinks that way because fellow Templars know about the abuses but do nothing. Also its sort of a payback. Who did it first? Templars. Only the wronged seek Vengeance and Anders was indeed wronged along with other mages.

 

Correction: only people who feel wronged seek vengeance. Whether you were actually wronged is irrelevant: perceived slights, rejections of legitimate judgement, collateral and uncaring consequence, and simple refusal to accept responsibility have also been the basis for people seeking vengeance. Vengeance is far more than justified retribution.

 

Not, mind you, that Anders initially set out looking for Vengeance. Vengeance was a twisted manifestation of Justice, which was itself distorted and personalized once Anders was possessed.

[EmissaryofLies]

Ok, by the same token, you could argue that all mages needed to be killed because of the known apostate underground and the blood mages within the circle and oh yeah orsino should have been killed for knowing what Quentin was up to but keeping quiet about it.

 

It circuitous logic that is a really bad way to make a decision.

 

Where the hell are you getting that from?

[Lulupab]

Ok, by the same token, you could argue that all mages needed to be killed because of the known apostate underground and the blood mages within the circle and oh yeah orsino should have been killed for knowing what Quentin was up to but keeping quiet about it.
 
It circuitous logic that is a really bad way to make a decision.

 
That's view point of a fade spirit not ours. I was just saying he had a good point.

[Dean_the_Young]

I wouldn't say "targeted people not responsible". Sure that particular Chantry in kirkwall was not responsible but the Chantry as an organization was more than responsible. Zathrian also targeted all the "tribe" the humans who raped and kill his children were from. We don't have info but you'd think their tribe mates drink for their glory when they abused the knife ears.

 

So when you wouldn't say 'targeted people not responsible', you just don't want to say it even if you acknowledge that the people being harmed were not responsible.

 

Sure. Gotcha.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

He thinks that way because fellow Templars know about the abuses but do nothing. Also its sort of a payback. Who did it first? Templars. Only the wronged seek Vengeance and Anders was indeed wronged along with other mages.

Doesn't matter who did it first. If you resort to the mindset of your enemies, you are no better than them. 

 

Also, what of those Templar's friends and families? Don't they now deserve the right to gain vengeance on Anders and any mage who thinks and acts like him? 

[wcholcombe]

Gaider actually said that a templar can still use the abilities for a long time. Considering Cassandra's young age, it could be possible that, if she started using lyrium, it wouldn't have passed that much time that she can't use templar abilities.
Plus, templar suffered from withdrawal if they don't  assume lyrium (Alistair is a plothole in this). Why would the Chantry makes one of his men suffer it? Why would Cassandra decide to stop assuming it? Plus, Seekers are knows to (generally) be recruited from elite templars. How can be a young person like cassandra be considered 'elite'?
Furthermore, we haven't see one templar that remained in the order (or became a Seeker) that stop using lyrium. Why would cassandra decide to stop using it and stop having those abilities.
Considering the Seekers can be non-templars (the 'generally' part means that they're not all templars), I haven't seen a single explanation that could lead me to believe she was a templar. Unless it'll be stated by Bioware, I'll be lei e she wasn't a templar.
 

I was referring to the investigation about the murders in the White spire. Up to the investigation no templar was killed.

Nothing in any of that makes me think Cassandra isn't a templar.

 

Can't find her age, but the Wiki does have this tidbit from Rise of the Seeker-

"When she was a little girl, her beloved older brother Anthony was murdered by blood mages. They needed a dragon for their rituals, so they tried to kidnap a dragon hunter, and Anthony was the best. During the struggle, Cassandra watched a blood mage on horseback decapitate him. Since then she has had a hatred for all mages - maleficar or not."

[The Elder King]

I wouldn't say "targeted people not responsible". Sure that particular Chantry in kirkwall was not responsible but the Chantry as an organization was more than responsible. Zathrian also targeted all the "tribe" the humans who raped and kill his children were from. We don't have info but you'd think their tribe mates drink for their glory when they abused the knife ears.

At first. He didn't do nothing for over a century when innocents human were cursed by the original werewolves (assuming the clan returned during that century in Brecilian. If not, He was refusing to reverse the curse that hurt innocents at the end of the quest). He didn't do nothing when his own people were cursed.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'd point out that we don't get let in on the reasons behind most of the Abominations we meet in game. I'm sure some were simply taken, but of those that struck deals in sure the promises or reasonings vary. By no means do I think all are like Anders. However, I do not believe he was he only one with (misplaced) altruism behind it, either.

Sure. But the ones we do aren't based on 'I die for other people's freedom!' The motivations we get are 'I don't want to die!' or 'If I die, I'm taking you with me!'

 

Even Anders wasn't a classical martyr in the sense of dying so other people would life. He was just as willing to die if the mages died as well: getting their freedom wasn't the goal, ending the status quo was. How it ended wasn't important to his perception of success.

[wcholcombe]

I wouldn't say "targeted people not responsible". Sure that particular Chantry in kirkwall was not responsible but the Chantry as an organization was more than responsible. Zathrian also targeted all the "tribe" the humans who raped and kill his children were from. We don't have info but you'd think their tribe mates drink for their glory when they abused the knife ears.

Well, I was referring to the actual people inside the Chantry who were praying or whatever, not people who were members of the Chantry.

 

As for Zatharian, I would have been fine with confining it to the people of the tribe, but by the time it is lifted, those people have been long dead and it is their children or possibly grand children, plus people who had no connection at all to the tribe who just happened to get bit, including members of his own clan of dalish.  If he wanted to curse the tribe and limit it to that, I would have approved, but he made the curse where it affected people who had nothing to do with it and than for his own gain used it to make himself practically immortal.

[Lulupab]

Correction: only people who feel wronged seek vengeance. Whether you were actually wronged is irrelevant: perceived slights, rejections of legitimate judgement, collateral and uncaring consequence, and simple refusal to accept responsibility have also been the basis for people seeking vengeance. Vengeance is far more than justified retribution.
 
Not, mind you, that Anders initially set out looking for Vengeance. Vengeance was a twisted manifestation of Justice, which was itself distorted and personalized once Anders was possessed.

Who gets to decide what someone was really wronged? Me? You? "law"? Your own parents hating you cause a religion said so is more than enough for being wronged. I don't even need to mention the events of circle.

 

That said, Anders was not even set on vengeance first. Events such as what Karl went through caused him to twist his original intent. Have you actually made him a 100% friend, romanced and did his act 3 quest? He actually mentions he will have retribution even if it means he has to die for it. Also prior to that he considers the Chantry a greater enemy than the Templars, why I don't know. Maybe it has to do with the fact that Chantry is making Templars "holy" and without it the people can see they there is nothing Divine about Templars.

[Dean_the_Young]

 
That's view point of a fade spirit not ours. I was just saying he had a good point.

 

How is it a good point?

 

Speaks more about a lack of perspective and understanding of other viewpoints. Justice (the spirit) doesn't really understand the concept of time or, well, preventative measures. In a different time and context, like when the Circles were being established, it easily would have been just as gung-ho about putting the mages in the Circles as an expression of justice in light of the chaos of the time.

[The Elder King]

Nothing in any of that makes me think Cassandra isn't a templar.
 
Can't find her age, but the Wiki does have this tidbit from Rise of the Seeker-
"When she was a little girl, her beloved older brother Anthony was murdered by blood mages. They needed a dragon for their rituals, so they tried to kidnap a dragon hunter, and Anthony was the best. During the struggle, Cassandra watched a blood mage on horseback decapitate him. Since then she has had a hatred for all mages - maleficar or not."

She was young, considering her appearance in the anime and her current appearance.
Again, unless someone points to me to a reasonable explanation why she'd decide to stop using lyrium, suffer from withdrawal and not having those abilities (that in her job are likely needed), or the Chantry would force her to no assume it, I don't see how she was a templar.

[wcholcombe]

Sure. But the ones we do aren't based on 'I die for other people's freedom!' The motivations we get are 'I don't want to die!' or 'If I die, I'm taking you with me!'

 

Even Anders wasn't a classical martyr in the sense of dying so other people would life. He was just as willing to die if the mages died as well: getting their freedom wasn't the goal, ending the status quo was. How it ended wasn't important to his perception of success.

Uldred did it because he wanted power.  There was no threat to him when he ambushed his fellow Enchanters.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

She was young, considering her appearance in the anime and her current appearance.
Again, unless someone points to me to a reasonable explanation why she'd decide to stop using lyrium, suffer from withdrawal and not having those abilities (that in her job are likely needed), or the Chantry would force her to no assume it, I don't see how she was a templar.

Cassandra was mid to late teens in Dawn of the Seeker. 

[wcholcombe]

She was young, considering her appearance in the anime and her current appearance.
Again, unless someone points to me to a reasonable explanation why she'd decide to stop using lyrium, suffer from withdrawal and not having those abilities (that in her job are likely needed), or the Chantry would force her to no assume it, I don't see how she was a templar.

Who says she doesn't still take lyrium?

The fact that she became a seeker at a young age might support the fact that she was a templar, as it would be easier to become a seeker at a young age as a templar I believe than as an outsider.

 

My example about her hating mages, just supports the idea that such a person would seek to become a templar.

[Lulupab]

Doesn't matter who did it first. If you resort to the mindset of your enemies, you are no better than them. 

 

Also, what of those Templar's friends and families? Don't they now deserve the right to gain vengeance on Anders and any mage who thinks and acts like him? 

 

They do deserve it , which is why Anders wants to die and Justice is not doing anything to stop it as its possible he also thinks peole who died in the chantry deserve Justice as well. That's just how it works and as long as mages are oppressed it will happen, it will NEVER stop until the Templars are less harsh.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Who says she doesn't still take lyrium?

The fact that she became a seeker at a young age might support the fact that she was a templar, as it would be easier to become a seeker at a young age as a templar I believe than as an outsider.

 

My example about her hating mages, just supports the idea that such a person would seek to become a templar.

Or she was just really skilled due to being a Pentaghast. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

They do deserve it , which is why Anders wants to die and Justice is not doing anything to stop it as its possible he also thinks peole who died in the chantry deserve Justice as well. That's just how it works and as long as mages are oppressed it will happen, it will NEVER stop until the Templars are less harsh.

But then what of the families of those mages the family of those Templars that were killed by mages killed? They deserve vengeance too by this logic.

 

Basically, this logic results in everyone killing each other in a cycle of hatred until there is one person or group left. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Who gets to decide what someone was really wronged? Me? You? "law"? Your own parents hating you cause a religion said so is more than enough for being wronged. I don't even need to mention the events of circle.

 

Societal consensus, really. You, me, the "law", parents, religion, counter-religious sentiment, the whole shebang. That's what culture and ethics are in the first place: general consensus.

 

There is no ultimate arbitrater unless you believe in such a divine being. There are no objective standards outside of our cultural creations and understandings. Otherwise, it's just people- not just the victim, not just the prosecutor, not just the accussed, not just the judge.

 

 

 

 

That said, Anders was not even set on vengeance first. Events such as what Karl went through caused him to twist his original intent. Have you actually made him a 100% friend, romanced and did his act 3 quest? He actually mentions he will have retribution even if it means he has to die for it. Also prior to that he considers the Chantry a greater enemy than the Templars, why I don't know. Maybe it has to do with the fact that Chantry is making Templars "holy" and without it the people can see they there is nothing Divine about Templars.

 

 

I've seen Anders from different relationship paths. I've never gotten the impression he considered the Chantry a greater enemy than the Templars: before Act 3 he's pretty much anti-Templar rather than anti-Chantry, and during Act 3 he's anti-anyone-who-doesn't-agree-with-him, which is just about everyone including many mages. He blew up the Chantry to provoke the Templars into a massacre, not because the Chantry itself was his target: his intended recipeint of the terrorism was Meredith, not the Divine or Chantry institution.

 

His willingness to die is not in question. Whether his view of retribution is justified is- something he himself struggles with between the various relationship paths.