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[Dean_the_Young]

Uldred did it because he wanted power.  There was no threat to him when he ambushed his fellow Enchanters.

 

We were talking about people who become abominations while under immediate threat.

[wcholcombe]

We were talking about people who become abominations while under immediate threat.

sorry, I thought ya'll were talking about reasons for becoming abominations in general.

[Dean_the_Young]

They do deserve it , which is why Anders wants to die and Justice is not doing anything to stop it as its possible he also thinks peole who died in the chantry deserve Justice as well. That's just how it works and as long as mages are oppressed it will happen, it will NEVER stop until the Templars are less harsh.

 

Justice doesn't do anything to stop a number of injustices, many of them committed or supported by Anders.

 

The spirit of Justice isn't an objective, impartial authority figure and a paragon of societal justice- at least not after it merges with Anders. All the Anders-Justice combination represents is what Anders views as the principle of Justice: an understanding as flawed as Anders is.

 

 

Justice (the spirit) will fixate on whatever the issue of the hour is. Justice (the abomination) will fixate on the fixations of the partner.

[Lulupab]

But then what of the families of those mages the family of those Templars that were killed by mages killed? They deserve vengeance too by this logic.

 

Basically, this logic results in everyone killing each other in a cycle of hatred until there is one person or group left. 

 

There is no logic at play. You wrong someone they will wrong you, so you better not wrong someone. Our whole world tries its best to prevent people from hurting each other. That's what it should happen in Thedas but the problem here is the authority that should prevent is actually doing the deed of wronging itself. That's the greatest corruption and it must be prevented at all costs. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There is no logic at play. You wrong someone they will wrong you, so you better not wrong someone. Our whole world tries its best to prevent people from hurting each other. That's what it should happen in Thedas but the problem here is the authority that should prevent is actually doing the deed of wronging itself. That's the greatest corruption and it must be prevented at all costs. 

Fine, this line of thinking. Better?

 

And that still doesn't change the fact that Anders' method will only set off a cycle of hatred based on people seeking vengeance in the name of justice. 

[Dean_the_Young]

There is no logic at play. You wrong someone they will wrong you, so you better not wrong someone. Our whole world tries its best to prevent people from hurting each other. That's what it should happen in Thedas but the problem here is the authority that should prevent is actually doing the deed of wronging itself. That's the greatest corruption and it must be prevented at all costs. 

 

Well, you're certainly right that there's no logic at play in this post. I'm up in the air whether it's more from a lack of perspective or simple hypocrisy.

[Cat Lance]

Sure. But the ones we do aren't based on 'I die for other people's freedom!' The motivations we get are 'I don't want to die!' or 'If I die, I'm taking you with me!'
 
Even Anders wasn't a classical martyr in the sense of dying so other people would life. He was just as willing to die if the mages died as well: getting their freedom wasn't the goal, ending the status quo was. How it ended wasn't important to his perception of success.

That doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just means we don't have a specific example of it.

[Dean_the_Young]

That doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just means we don't have a specific example of it.

 

Did I ever claim it didn't happen at all?

[The Elder King]

Cassandra was mid to late teens in Dawn of the Seeker.

Was it stated somewhere?  

Who says she doesn't still take lyrium?
The fact that she became a seeker at a young age might support the fact that she was a templar, as it would be easier to become a seeker at a young age as a templar I believe than as an outsider.
 
My example about her hating mages, just supports the idea that such a person would seek to become a templar.

Then why she didn't use templar abilities in the anime? That's my major problem. Though if you're right, then she'll have templar abilities in DAI. We'll see.
I disagree. She's from Noble blood, and she might have the connection to be taken by the Seekers as an apprentice, after having proven herself to be skilled.

[Lulupab]

Justice doesn't do anything to stop a number of injustices, many of them committed or supported by Anders.

 

The spirit of Justice isn't an objective, impartial authority figure and a paragon of societal justice- at least not after it merges with Anders. All the Anders-Justice combination represents is what Anders views as the principle of Justice: an understanding as flawed as Anders is.

 

 

Justice (the spirit) will fixate on whatever the issue of the hour is. Justice (the abomination) will fixate on the fixations of the partner.

 

I'm gonna respond to rest of your posts here too as my answer is short.

 

I never meant to make Anders a saint or even defend him for that matter. I was pointing out facts that ultimately leads to the point that current system that handled mages was quite unethical and served no side. People were hurt and when that happens they will always take steps and retaliate. That's just how nature works. The chantry and Templars had it coming and are at least 50% responsible in everything including what happened in Kirkwall. I'd argue its much more than half but its not the time for that. 

[Cat Lance]

Did I ever claim it didn't happen at all?

Then I'm confused by your previous response to me, as I certainly wasn't claiming it was the sole motivation...

[wcholcombe]

Was it stated somewhere?   Then why she didn't use templar abilities in the anime? That's my major problem. Though if you're right, then she'll have templar abilities in DAI. We'll see.
I disagree. She's from Noble blood, and she might have the connection to be taken by the Seekers as an apprentice, after having proven herself to be skilled.

That is honestly why I was asking the question. I haven't seen Dawn of the Seeker, and was curious why you thought she wasn't a templar.  You may be right. But someone hating mages is also a pretty good reason such a person would choose to be a templar.  We shall see.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Was it stated somewhere? 

Yes, but I can't remember where. Either a Bioware dev or a Funimation person said it. 

[Lulupab]

Fine, this line of thinking. Better?

 

And that still doesn't change the fact that Anders' method will only set off a cycle of hatred based on people seeking vengeance in the name of justice. 

 

But why Anders would want to do that? He is quite capable of thinking and no one could have guessed how he'd turn up in DA2 from his appearance in Awakening. The cycle of hatred was already started much before Anders. Just because we saw something happen in Kirkwal doesn't mean there aren't other events in other places of Thedas. We don't actually listen to global news. The circles were annulled quite a few times, apparently each circle has history of annulments. And this is just one of the turning points of the cycle.

 

Well, you're certainly right that there's no logic at play in this post. I'm up in the air whether it's more from a lack of perspective or simple hypocrisy.

 

What hypocrisy? Its Templar's job to prevent and some decide to abuse their authority. The corruption of authority is punished much harder than simple corruption in our world. I don't see how Thedas should be different in that regard. 

[The Elder King]

That is honestly why I was asking the question. I haven't seen Dawn of the Seeker, and was curious why you thought she wasn't a templar.  You may be right. But someone hating mages is also a pretty good reason such a person would choose to be a templar.  We shall see.

Seekers are still somehow involved with the mages. Though I guess we'll learn more about her backstory and decision to be a Seeker (or a templar, if she was one previously) in DAI.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm gonna respond to rest of your posts here too as my answer is short.

 

I never meant to make Anders a saint or even defend him for that matter. I was pointing out facts that ultimately leads to the point that current system that handled mages was quite unethical and served no side. People were hurt and when that happens they will always take steps and retaliate. That's just how nature works. The chantry and Templars had it coming and are at least 50% responsible in everything including what happened in Kirkwall. I'd argue its much more than half but its not the time for that. 

 

I've decided: you simply lack perspective.

 

The system that handles mages does serve a side (or, more accurately a purpose that can be associated with a side).

 

People are hurt regardless, and that a system hurts people does not challenge whether more or fewer people are hurt because of that system.

 

Saying the Chantry and Templars had it coming is as meaningful as saying the Mages had it coming. It is banal, overgeneralizing, and not particularly helpful to anyone.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

But why Anders would want to do that? He is quite capable of thinking and no one could have guessed how he'd turn up in DA2 from his appearance in Awakening. The cycle of hatred was already started much before Anders. Just because we saw something happen in Kirkwal doesn't mean there aren't other events in other places of Thedas. We don't actually listen to global news. The circles were annulled quite a few times, apparently each circle has history of annulments. And this is just one of the turning points of the cycle.

And all he does is reinforce the policy. By blowing up the Chantry, all he did was literally prove the Templar's point. 

[The Elder King]

Yes, but I can't remember where. Either a Bioware dev or a Funimation person said it.

Thanks. Considering that DotS happened in 9:22, if she was 25 al she'd roughly 43. Possible though she seems a bit younger.

[Inprea]

And all he does is reinforce the policy. By blowing up the Chantry, all he did was literally prove the Templar's point. 

 

It is really a shame that he blew up the chantry. If Anders hadn't done that he would have been a very good example of a well behaved apostate mage. He was living relatively quietly, only taking out a templar who few would defend, and providing healing to those that couldn't afford it otherwise. Fortunately we still have Aneran as a none harrowed former circle mage, to my knowledge, living quietly as a healer.

[Lulupab]

I've decided: you simply lack perspective.

 

The system that handles mages does serve a side (or, more accurately a purpose that can be associated with a side).

 

People are hurt regardless, and that a system hurts people does not challenge whether more or fewer people are hurt because of that system.

 

Saying the Chantry and Templars had it coming is as meaningful as saying the Mages had it coming. It is banal, overgeneralizing, and not particularly helpful to anyone.

 

I have a perspective and its quite clear to me. You are trying to convince of things I already know about and reject. For your information I've always supported circles but autonomous ones. Where mages are governors of their circle and Templars are police force.

 

And all he does is reinforce the policy. By blowing up the Chantry, all he did was literally prove the Templar's point. 

 

The problem here is there was absolutely no peaceful way to achieve a change. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Thanks. Considering that DotS happened in 9:22, if she was 25 al she'd roughly 43. Possible though she seems a bit younger.

Yeah, going by the persons words of mid to late teens, she was anywhere from 15-19 which makes her age 34 to 38 in Inquisition.

[LobselVith8]

And all he does is reinforce the policy. By blowing up the Chantry, all he did was literally prove the Templar's point. 

 

And yet, the Circles have now broken free from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars, and the mages have a fighting chance to maintain their autonomy instead of living out another millennia of servitude to the Andrastian Chantry.

[wcholcombe]

I have a perspective and its quite clear to me. You are trying to convince of things I already know about and reject. For your information I've always supported circles but autonomous ones. Where mages are governors of their circle and Templars are police force.

 

 

The problem here is there was absolutely no peaceful way to achieve a change. 

Sure there was.  Expose Meredith for what she was and get the circle and templars cleaned out in Kirkwall and things would have improved. Go ahead call me naive, but I think Meredith was getting close to hanging herself one way or the other.

 

And anyway, if Anders truly wanted to improve Kirkwall he would have gone directly after Meredith and the Templars responsible for the situation as well as the blood mages, but he didn't.  Because he wanted to start a war.

[The Elder King]

Yeah, going by the persons words of mid to late teens, she was anywhere from 15-19 which makes her age 34 to 38 in Inquisition.

Yop. I'd say she was 17-18.

[Dean_the_Young]

But why Anders would want to do that? He is quite capable of thinking and no one could have guessed how he'd turn up in DA2 from his appearance in Awakening. The cycle of hatred was already started much before Anders. Just because we saw something happen in Kirkwal doesn't mean there aren't other events in other places of Thedas. We don't actually listen to global news. The circles were annulled quite a few times, apparently each circle has history of annulments. And this is just one of the turning points of the cycle.

 

Because Anders is a psycopath.

 

I am not using hyperbole here: as time goes by, Anders exhibits more and more traits associated with the diagnosis of pyscopathy (commonly conflated with sociopathy). The Hare Psychopathy Checklist, used to identify psychopathy, pings like a sonar the further Anders goes.

 

Psychopathy Checklist-Revised: Factors, Facets, and Items^[10] Factor 1 Factor 2 Other items

Facet 1: Interpersonal

• Glibness/superficial charm
• Grandiose sense of self-worth
• Pathological lying
• Cunning/manipulative

Facet 2: Affective

• Lack of remorse or guilt
• Emotionally shallow
• Callous/lack of empathy
• Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Facet 3: Lifestyle

• Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
• Parasitic lifestyle
• Lack of realistic, long-term goals
• Impulsivity
• Irresponsibility

Facet 4: Antisocial

• Poor behavioral controls
• Early behavioral problems
• Juvenile delinquency
• Revocation of conditional release
• Criminal versatility

• Many short-term marital relationships
• Promiscuous sexual behavior

 

The Anders-Justice combination is a mentally disturbed and unstable extremist, not a rational but radical enlightened revolutionary. Even if he does have a cause you like.

 

 

 

What hypocrisy? Its Templar's job to prevent and some decide to abuse their authority. The corruption of authority is punished much harder than simple corruption in our world. I don't see how Thedas should be different in that regard.

 

 

As I said in the other post, I decided it's more of a lack of awareness on your part. In the context of what I was responding to at the time, your lack of awareness that Anders-Justice and their like are against the very premise of the preventative institution. That is what they consider an injustice: the execution of one is the very issue which you are simultaneously condemning and necessitating as a matter of Justice.

 

Anders is against the concept of preventative institutions in the first place. Not the abuses within them: that they exist and restrict in the first place. He wasn't running because he was being raped, he was running because he doesn't accept the legitimacy of such an institution at all.