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Uneven Presentation of the mage-templar conflict


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#8051
Lulupab

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Sure there was.  Expose Meredith for what she was and get the circle and templars cleaned out in Kirkwall and things would have improved. Go ahead call me naive, but I think Meredith was getting close to hanging herself one way or the other.

 

And anyway, if Anders truly wanted to improve Kirkwall he would have gone directly after Meredith and the Templars responsible for the situation as well as the blood mages, but he didn't.  Because he wanted to start a war.

Meredith already sent for annulment. She would have taken mages down with her one way or another. She had all kirkwall under her thumb and many pet Templars who worshiped her.

 

HE didn't want to improve Kirkwall he wanted to improve Thedas, in his own view that is. I'm very glad the story took us to a place that a moral character takes control of Mage rebellion.

 

Show who:

Spoiler



#8052
Dean_the_Young

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I have a perspective and its quite clear to me. You are trying to convince of things I already know about and reject. For your information I've always supported circles but autonomous ones. Where mages are governors of their circle and Templars are police force.

 

 

Being clear in your perspective doesn't mean you have a broad one. Your lack of awareness in the contradictions in your arguments is why I deem your perspective limited.

 

 

The problem here is there was absolutely no peaceful way to achieve a change.

 

There were-  but radicals did their best to kill them.



#8053
Hanako Ikezawa

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It is really a shame that he blew up the chantry. If Anders hadn't done that he would have been a very good example of a well behaved apostate mage. He was living relatively quietly, only taking out a templar who few would defend, and providing healing to those that couldn't afford it otherwise. Fortunately we still have Aneran as a none harrowed former circle mage, to my knowledge, living quietly as a healer.

Agreed. He was well loved by the Ferelden population in Kirkwall due to his free clinic.

 

 

 

The problem here is there was absolutely no peaceful way to achieve a change. 

 

And yet, the Circles have now broken free from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars, and the mages have a fighting chance to maintain their autonomy instead of living out another millennia of servitude to the Andrastian Chantry.

While true he did achieve results, he also hampered any possible rebellion by turning the civilian population more against them by destroying a civilian target. 


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#8054
Hanako Ikezawa

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Yop. I'd say she was 17-18.

Agreed. 



#8055
Lulupab

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Because Anders is a psycopath.

 

I am not using hyperbole here: as time goes by, Anders exhibits more and more traits associated with the diagnosis of pyscopathy (commonly conflated with sociopathy). The Hare Psychopathy Checklist, used to identify psychopathy, pings like a sonar the further Anders goes.

 

Psychopathy Checklist-Revised: Factors, Facets, and Items[10] Factor 1 Factor 2 Other items

Facet 1: Interpersonal

Facet 2: Affective

  • Lack of remorse or guilt
  • Emotionally shallow
  • Callous/lack of empathy
  • Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Facet 3: Lifestyle

  • Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
  • Parasitic lifestyle
  • Lack of realistic, long-term goals
  • Impulsivity
  • Irresponsibility

Facet 4: Antisocial

  • Many short-term marital relationships
  • Promiscuous sexual behavior

 

The Anders-Justice combination is a mentally disturbed and unstable extremist, not a rational but radical enlightened revolutionary. Even if he does have a cause you like.

 

 

 

As I said in the other post, I decided it's more of a lack of awareness on your part. In the context of what I was responding to at the time, your lack of awareness that Anders-Justice and their like are against the very premise of the preventative institution. That is what they consider an injustice: the execution of one is the very issue which you are simultaneously condemning and necessitating as a matter of Justice.

 

Anders is against the concept of preventative institutions in the first place. Not the abuses within them: that they exist and restrict in the first place. He wasn't running because he was being raped, he was running because he doesn't accept the legitimacy of such an institution at all.

 

You'd be surprised to know many political leaders who changed the world were psychopaths and many like Anders were not born as one but became one through their lives. I never questioned morality but saw the necessity. There have been many such necessities in history. Not in postmodern or past centuries mind you but older times. I can always give examples but I'm sure you know of few yourself.



#8056
wcholcombe

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Meredith already sent for annulment. She would have taken mages down with her one way or another. She had all kirkwall under her thumb and many pet Templars who worshiped her.

 

HE didn't want to improve Kirkwall he wanted to improve Thedas, in his own view that is. I'm very glad the story took us to a place that a moral character takes control of Mage rebellion.

 

Show who:

Spoiler

Guess what, the Divine wasn't going to overule her Grand Cleric that was there on the ground. Plus, as we have seen in Asunder, Justina isn't exactly a hard liner when it comes to mages.  Meredith was playing out her string and would have gone too far and been removed.

 

Considering in Awakenings Ander's thought the mages leaving the circle was a horrible thought....



#8057
Hanako Ikezawa

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You'd be surprised to know many political leaders who changed the world were psychopaths and many like Anders were not born as one but became one through their lives. I never questioned morality but saw the necessity. There have been many such necessities in history. Not in postmodern or past centuries mind you but older times. I can always give examples but I'm sure you know of few yourself.

Please do give examples. I'm genuinely curious. 



#8058
Lulupab

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Being clear in your perspective doesn't mean you have a broad one. Your lack of awareness in the contradictions in your arguments is why I deem your perspective limited.

 

There were-  but radicals did their best to kill them.

 

So this a holier than thou speech. When two countries are at war there is no broad perspective. Everything you do in the name of your country and its freedom is justified. (maybe its not but in the eyes of people from that country it is). Maybe none of them are right and each represent a grey morality, very much like Mage-templar. The point here is killers in such wars are heroes to another side.



#8059
Dean_the_Young

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You'd be surprised to know many political leaders who changed the world were psychopaths and many like Anders were not born as one but became one through their lives. I never questioned morality but saw the necessity. There have been many such necessities in history. Not in postmodern or past centuries mind you but older times. I can always give examples but I'm sure you know of few yourself.

 

I'm quite aware: the 20th century was filled with them. There was nothing necessary about them: history would have been different without them, but history doesn't depend on such people. History will go on regardless, and the myth of necessity just a tool to justify their bloodshed when 'we wanted our goals enough to kill enough of the people in our way' isn't honest enough.



#8060
Xilizhra

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Facet 1: Interpersonal

He's sometimes glib but doesn't keep it up very often (far less than in Awakening), his sense of self-worth isn't that high (he never really focuses on himself as a catalyst, just possesses the firm belief that there needs to be one), only lies to Hawke once about a very specific thing (not being at all pathological), and is only occasionally manipulative.

 


Facet 2: Affective

  • Lack of remorse or guilt
  • Emotionally shallow
  • Callous/lack of empathy
  • Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

He feels intense guilt about the Chantry explosion ("There's nothing you can say to me that I haven't already said to myself"), feels deep emotion (especially evident when romancing him), has empathy enough to work alone in a free clinic for the penniless in Darktown, and is perfectly willing to die to accept responsibility for this ("And if I pay for that with my life, then I pay").

 


Facet 3: Lifestyle

  • Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
  • Parasitic lifestyle
  • Lack of realistic, long-term goals
  • Impulsivity
  • Irresponsibility

There's no indication that he's easily bored, his general lifestyle is very giving and active and he only asks for Hawke's help three times in seven years while volunteering to help Hawke out at any other given moment, and he avoids impulsivity quite well given that he has an angry spirit living in his head this whole time. One could try to argue for the third and final on this list, but those characteristics alone do not a psychopath make.

 


Facet 4: Antisocial

  • Many short-term marital relationships
  • Promiscuous sexual behavior

See above for behavioral controls; he's quite self-disciplined, relatively speaking. "Juvenile delinquency" is a shaky one, given that he never seemed to have hurt anyone in his escape attempts; similarly, he's no more criminally versatile than anyone else who follows Hawke. He had no marital relationships at all and what promiscuity seemed to exist was largely a Circle cultural thing; he certainly shows no sign of it when romancing Hawke.

 

So, in the end, no; Anders is by no means a psychopath. He's certainly mentally ill in some respect; I think he'd been compared to someone with bipolar disorder once before. A psychopath, however, he is not.


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#8061
Dean_the_Young

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So this a holier than thou speech. When two countries are at war there is no broad perspective. Everything you do in the name of your country and its freedom is justified. (maybe its not but in the eyes of people from that country it is). Maybe none of them are right and each represent a grey morality, very much like Mage-templar.

 

This is a personal evaluation of you. There is a broader perspective- the perspective not bound to the immediate context and viewpoints of either of the two countries. There are also the viewpoints of those inside the two countries who understand better. That you entertain the fantasy that everything you do in the name of -x- is justified is a mark of that limited perspective. It is factionalism and tribalism, not objectivity, even as it applys itself in the claim of objective values. You might as well begin every post with 'this is what this perspective sees as moral,' just to remove any doubt that you're not taking an objective stance.

 

If you want to be seen as objective, step out of the false limitations. No one can be perfectly objective, but anyone can avoid falling into a logical trap as basic as factionalism.
 

 

The point here is killers in such wars are heroes to another side.

 

Nah, the point here is that viewpoints as limited as yours are the sort that support and engage in atrocities, not resolve or prevent them.


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#8062
Lulupab

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I'm quite aware: the 20th century was filled with them. There was nothing necessary about them: history would have been different without them, but history doesn't depend on such people. History will go on regardless, and the myth of necessity just a tool to justify their bloodshed when 'we wanted our goals enough to kill enough of the people in our way' isn't honest enough.


Please do give examples. I'm genuinely curious.



My country was under control of Spanish overlords. They were relatively "nice" given it was around 1568's. They could be much harsher to us but they weren't. But we were not allowed to have an army or a police force of our own and we didn't have any governing rights. 
 
We started a rebellion (1568–1648). It was bloody with huge death tolls. Unspeakable things were done to Spanish people living in Netherlands and terrorists from that time were renowned as heroes to be remembered even to this day. The Spanish did a lot for us too mind you, they made a lot of investments that we used but the land was ours and it was necessary that we commit all those abhorrent acts to be free.

 

Are you claiming it was not necessary? However it all comes to your perspective as the Spanish definitely didn't agree.


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#8063
LobselVith8

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While true he did achieve results, he also hampered any possible rebellion by turning the civilian population more against them by destroying a civilian target. 

 

The Chantry organization presided over the Order of Templars and the Circle of Magi, with Knight-Commander Meredith being subordinate to Grand Cleric Elthina; I don't see her as a civilian.



#8064
Lulupab

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This is a personal evaluation of you. There is a broader perspective- the perspective not bound to the immediate context and viewpoints of either of the two countries. There are also the viewpoints of those inside the two countries who understand better. That you entertain the fantasy that everything you do in the name of -x- is justified is a mark of that limited perspective. It is factionalism and tribalism, not objectivity, even as it applys itself in the claim of objective values. You might as well begin every post with 'this is what this perspective sees as moral,' just to remove any doubt that you're not taking an objective stance.

 

If you want to be seen as objective, step out of the false limitations. No one can be perfectly objective, but anyone can avoid falling into a logical trap as basic as factionalism.
 

Nah, the point here is that viewpoints as limited as yours are the sort that support and engage in atrocities, not resolve or prevent them.

 

That is not a "broad perspective". You try to be the "neutral" party outside of the game, judging and commenting on events of game by applying morals and thoughts of a postmodern society to it and evaluating them with those standards. Sure I can be that person, try me. But I choose not to be, because I want to see the events as a Thedian. "how would I react if I was from thedas?" I ask from myself.



#8065
Dean_the_Young

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He's sometimes glib but doesn't keep it up very often (far less than in Awakening), his sense of self-worth isn't that high (he never really focuses on himself as a catalyst, just possesses the firm belief that there needs to be one), only lies to Hawke once about a very specific thing (not being at all pathological), and is only occasionally manipulative.

Or- he is frequently glib and attempts wit, though it fixates more and more. He does have a martyr complex, and places himself and his judgements above everyone else he is affecting, even the ones he claims to represent. He deceives Hawke on a regular basis across the acts, hiding information and misleading with exagerated rumors and claims, and he conducts these actions with a stated purpose of trying to make other people follow his cause.

 

 

 

 

 

He feels intense guilt about the Chantry explosion ("There's nothing you can say to me that I haven't already said to myself"), feels deep emotion (especially evident when romancing him), has empathy enough to work alone in a free clinic for the penniless in Darktown, and is perfectly willing to die to accept responsibility for this ("And if I pay for that with my life, then I pay").

 

 

 

And here you're fixating on specific instances rather than trends. He expresses little guilt about many other things he does including throwing the mages to the wolves, and his emotions are shallow in the terms of fixating on specific issues to the ambivalence of all else. His empathy is increasingly limited to the support of his cause, and his relationship with Darktown is also self-serving. Anders also routinely seeks to avoid responsibility for his actions, that choice not withstanding.

 

 

There's no indication that he's easily bored, his general lifestyle is very giving and active and he only asks for Hawke's help three times in seven years while volunteering to help Hawke out at any other given moment, and he avoids impulsivity quite well given that he has an angry spirit living in his head this whole time. One could try to argue for the third and final on this list, but those characteristics alone do not a psychopath make.

 

 

There is every indication that he has a need for stimulation: the presence of Justice pushing him further and further and not letting him rest or be passive about the cause. It was rather the point (and effect) of his merging: Justice won't let him be apathetic. His relationship with Hawke, in which he takes shelter under Hawke's and co's influence even when not helping, is partially parasitic (though not completely devoid of symbiotic as well: they rarely are). Justice's influence is extremely impulsive, and his focus is increasingly short-term without regards to consequences.

 

These are exactly the trends that make a psychopath. Trends, mind you- the nature of mental diseases is that it is a spectrum of trends, not a uniform of absolutes. The trends where a person does, rather than the instances in which they do not, are what make up a diagnosis.

 

See above for behavioral controls; he's quite self-disciplined, relatively speaking. "Juvenile delinquency" is a shaky one, given that he never seemed to have hurt anyone in his escape attempts; similarly, he's no more criminally versatile than anyone else who follows Hawke. He had no marital relationships at all and what promiscuity seemed to exist was largely a Circle cultural thing; he certainly shows no sign of it when romancing Hawke.

 

Anders is increasingly incapable of self-control, manifesting in his loss of control and influence over Justice. Juvenile delinquency doesn't require hurting people. Unlike most of Hawke's companions, Anders is involved with various deliberatly subversive groups and tendencies.

 

The last two were actually a separate category that didn't copy the label (listed as other items). I would agree that Anders doesn't express those.

 

 

 

So, in the end, no; Anders is by no means a psychopath. He's certainly mentally ill in some respect; I think he'd been compared to someone with bipolar disorder once before. A psychopath, however, he is not.

 

 

Considering you consider instances of exception to disprove trends, I don't think you understand how disorders are recognized.



#8066
The Elder King

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It's 'Thedosian' not 'Thedian'.

#8067
EmissaryofLies

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Is anyone in here a licensed psychologist?

 

If not, please cease the armchair psychology as you have no real authority over the very complicated subject.


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#8068
Dean_the_Young

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My country was under control of Spanish overlords. They were relatively "nice" given it was around 1568's. They could be much harsher to us but they weren't. But we were not allowed to have an army or a police force of our own and we didn't have any governing rights. 
 
We started a rebellion (1568–1648). It was bloody with huge death tolls. Unspeakable things were done to Spanish people living in Netherlands and terrorists from that time were renowned as heroes to be remembered even to this day. The Spanish did a lot for us too mind you, they made a lot of investments that we used but the land was ours and it was necessary that we commit all those abhorrent acts to be free.

 

Are you claiming it was not necessary? However it all comes to your perspective as the Spanish definitely didn't agree.

 

 

Whether it was necessary for the results that occurred is irrelevant to whether the results themselves are necessary. History is the record of what is, not what must be. It will continue regardless of who wins and loses, and there is nothing necessary about that. Desirable, sure- but a necessary means for an objective is not the same as a necessary objective.

 

If your Spanish overlords had won that war, for example... you would not be in a position to appreciate the results, whatever they were. Whether they dominated for another five, fifty, or five hundred years: it would still be history, and everything that happened (and didn't happen) would still be necessary for history to occur the way it did. Even though your necessity from way back when of our history was, well, suddenly not necessary.

 

Your historical fallacy is little more than believing that the way things happened were the only way things could happen to get the objective you wanted. This is, from any outside viewpoint, self-serving and even silly: it has no bearing on whether an action was actually necessary to achieve a goal, and strenuously denies any counter-example of how things could have been done differently.


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#8069
Lulupab

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Is anyone in here a licensed psychologist?

 

If not, please cease the armchair psychology as you have no real authority over the very complicated subject.

 

I know right :P

 

Its an insult for those people who spend 8 years on the subject. Even they might make a mistake in determining if someone has a mental condition as mentality is very complicated in general.



#8070
wcholcombe

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Is anyone in here a licensed psychologist?

 

If not, please cease the armchair psychology as you have no real authority over the very complicated subject.

None of us use magic, are religious leaders, or serve in a templar based religious order, but that doesn't stop us from expressing opinion on these subjects :)



#8071
Mistic

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My country was under control of Spanish overlords. They were relatively "nice" given it was around 1568's. They could be much harsher to us but they weren't. But we were not allowed to have an army or a police force of our own and we didn't have any governing rights. 
 
We started a rebellion (1568–1648). It was bloody with huge death tolls. Unspeakable things were done to Spanish people living in Netherlands and terrorists from that time were renowned as heroes to be remembered even to this day. The Spanish did a lot for us too mind you, they made a lot of investments that we used but the land was ours and it was necessary that we commit all those abhorrent acts to be free.

 

Are you claiming it was not necessary? However it all comes to your perspective as the Spanish definitely didn't agree.

 

Oh, my, what a coincidence! I'm Spanish, yes, the former "overlords" :P  The Eighty Years War is seen as a huge failure on our part, in every sense. Why did we spent the American gold and silver on it? Why did we care so much about religion? And in the end we didn't win. So much destruction for nothing.

 

So, yes, those who win have the privilege to write themselves as heroes, and the pesky details are left outside or justified with the "I did what I had to do" line. It's a huge risk, though. Anders thought it was acceptable. I can blame him for his acts, but I can't deny the reasoning behind it. History is blind, and with centuries of hindsight even a religious fanatic barbarian conqueror like Andraste can become a source of positive inspiration.

 

I'd still stop Anders, though.



#8072
Dean_the_Young

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That is not a "broad perspective". You try to be the "neutral" party outside of the game, judging and commenting on events of game by applying morals and thoughts of a postmodern society to it and evaluating them with those standards. Sure I can be that person, try me. But I choose not to be, because I want to see the events as a Thedian. "how would I react if I was from thedas?" I ask from myself.

 

It is a broader perspective than the one you demonstrate, which is more than enough. I am quite comfortable recognizing perspectives broader than mine: the breadth of perspective doesn't mean I agree with them or even that I'm right, it just means I can appreciate other viewpoints even if I don't hold them myself.

 

If you're trying to be a Thedosian on these forums, you're doing a rather poor job at it. Your characterization and arguments are very much of a western liberalism self-insert, not as someone who developed within the context from Thedas.


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#8073
Dean_the_Young

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Is anyone in here a licensed psychologist?

 

If not, please cease the armchair psychology as you have no real authority over the very complicated subject.

 

Ah, but what if I learned about this case study from a licensed psychologist?



#8074
Lulupab

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It is a broader perspective than the one you demonstrate, which is more than enough. I am quite comfortable recognizing perspectives broader than mine: the breadth of perspective doesn't mean I agree with them or even that I'm right, it just means I can appreciate other viewpoints even if I don't hold them myself.

 

If you're trying to be a Thedosian on these forums, you're doing a rather poor job at it. Your characterization and arguments are very much of a western liberalism self-insert, not as someone who developed within the context from Thedas.

 

Maybe. I don't usually care about trivial matters. As for western liberalism I don't deny that it has affected my decisions and its my job to protect that liberty but that doesn't mean it can't be applied to Thedas. Its no surprise I adore Ferelden to no end.



#8075
Master Warder Z

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Maybe. I don't usually care about trivial matters. As for western liberalism I don't deny that it has affected my decisions and its my job to protect that liberty but that doesn't mean it can't be applied to Thedas. Its no surprise I adore Ferelden to no end.

 

Despite them being Feudalistic in every sense other then not having an absolute Monarchy?