8640 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

That doesn't mean Meredith couldn't illegally annul the mages. She did turn on and killed his fellow Templars you know.

 

Do you realize what a non-falsifiable this is?

 

Basing an argument around the possiblity of illegally breaking rules is only an argument against potential power, nothing more. There is no organizational structure or system that, if its rules and mechanics are defied, can't be misused. The only way to prevent an abuse that requires power is to prevent the accumulation of power: preventing the accumulation of power in one area requires power in another, power that can itself can illegally break rules and be abused.

 

There is no logical end point to this argument. Meredith could illegally annul the mages as long as she had power. Orisino could illegally commit blood magic. Anders could illegally become an abomination and commit terrorism.

 

There is no start point, and there is no end point. No outcome of the conflict will produce a state of affairs in which the superior power can not illegally abuse their power and turn on and kill fellow faction members in the pursuit of that.

[Dean_the_Young]

In regard to your bolded Answers. The divine was considering putting the whole city to torch. As if that was not enough doom for mages, Meredith has sent for annulment. Someone who wants to burn the whole city is very likely to accept the annulment if knight-commander demands it.

 

You keep repeating this, but haven't really explained where putting the whole city to the torch was ever presented as the Divine's intent for an Exalted March.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Debatable but fair enough because we simply don't have enough information to properly argue about it. Only opinions can determine who or what had greater roles. But based on what I said earlier mathematically 1/3 or lesser of blame is on Anders.

 

Anders shmanders. I blame VARRIC. Yup. That's right I said it. The dwarf and that smart mouth of his is what really started this whole mess. That mischievous silver tongued imp always had something slick to say to Anders and eventually the poor tormented mage creature just snapped.

 

Mages, Templars, the Chantry, Qunari, darkspawn, demons pfff these things aren't the real problem. It's the ROGUES that you have to watch out for. They're as smooth as an oil slick on an iceberg and twice as slippery.

 

Watch your backs. Watch your wallets. They're out there and you'll never see them coming. 

 

You've been warned.

[LobselVith8]

I won't be playing elf mages if I'm stuck with a dalish elf mage. Human female mage works just as well.

Eww all the inqs are dalish? So much for me playing elves Qunari and humans it is.

Eww? :|

So you are telling me you see the Chantry building in Kirkwall as a military target, equal to say the Templar's Quarters?

I addressed Grand Cleric Elthina. I don't see members of a politico-military organization as mere civilians.

That said, I'd like to meet Justina and see what she brings to the table. Maybe she's the reformer that the Chantry needs in order to survive, given how every organization seems to be crippled (given what Laidlaw said about why the "black sheep" group of the Inquisitor is necessary).

Leliana seems to respect and believe in Divine Justina V, and her characterization in the two recent novels was more faithful to her character than "Faith", so I think that counts for a lot.

[Lulupab]

Do you realize what a non-falsifiable this is?

 

Basing an argument around the possiblity of illegally breaking rules is only an argument against potential power, nothing more. There is no organizational structure or system that, if its rules and mechanics are defied, can't be misused. The only way to prevent an abuse that requires power is to prevent the accumulation of power: preventing the accumulation of power in one area requires power in another, power that can itself can illegally break rules and be abused.

 

There is no logical end point to this argument. Meredith could illegally annul the mages as long as she had power. Orisino could illegally commit blood magic. Anders could illegally become an abomination and commit terrorism.

 

There is no start point, and there is no end point. No outcome of the conflict will produce a state of affairs in which the superior power can not illegally abuse their power and turn on and kill fellow faction members in the pursuit of that.

 

I think you were gone when I made point regarding systems and how they should work:

 

All systems can abused however the question is how much hesitation will someone who wants to abuse the system would have? In other words does the punishment for abuse create enough fear to make that person think twice? We have yet to see a Templar getting punished for such abuses by someone other than the protagonist who can choose to do that and there was no sign of stress at all among those templars, it seemed like it was a routine thing and no fear of punishment.

Using my own country as en example, we have a very liberal Justice system, punishments are less harsh compared to rest of the world and our prison's conditions are top notch, we are the best rivaled only by Finland. However if someone in the Justice system IE a Judge has proven to be corrupt that Judge will go to a especial court and after trial and proven guilty will go to a especial correction facility that only people who abused the Justice system go to. They will also receive a much harsher punishment and longer time in prison than normal criminals.

Although quite liberal and very "kind" to criminals, Netherlands have one of the lowest crimes rates in the world. Why do you think that is? Its because the system prevents as much as abuse as possible and punishes any sort of abuse with severity.

 

And I did not made that comment to say how Meredith abused the system but to say she was very responsible in death of mages and its delusional to blame Anders alone. No matter how self righteous you think Anders is (and I agree) what he did was selfless. self righteous but selfless.

[Dean_the_Young]

I think you were gone when I made point regarding systems and how they should work:

 

All systems can abused however the question is how much hesitation will someone who wants to abuse the system would have? In other words does the punishment for abuse create enough fear to make that person think twice? We have yet to see a Templar getting punished for such abuses by someone other than the protagonist who can choose to do that and there was no sign of stress at all among those templars, it seemed like it was a routine thing and no fear of punishment.

Using my own country as en example, we have a very liberal Justice system, punishments are less harsh compared to rest of the world and our prison's conditions are top notch, we are the best rivaled only by Finland. However if someone in the Justice system IE a Judge has proven to be corrupt that Judge will go to a especial court and after trial and proven guilty will go to a especial correction facility that only people who abused the Justice system go to. They will also receive a much harsher punishment and longer time in prison than normal criminals.
 

 

And this... really has nothing to do with what you just quoted.

 

Although quite liberal and very "kind" to criminals, Netherlands have one of the lowest crimes rates in the world. Why do you think that is? Its because the system prevents as much as abuse as possible and punishes any sort of abuse with severity.

 

 

Correlation and causation fallacy there- the Netherland crime rate can have as much to do with other factors (especially the focus on criminal rehabilitation rather than punishment) as anti-corruption efforts. Which, if you know where to see, the government is a regular partner in crime in with other people's villainy.

 

Nor does it address the point that your system only remains as good as the adherence to its rules. It still retains the ability to illegally break them, which is the issue you were raising earlier.

 

 

 

And I did not made that comment to say how Meredith abused the system but to say she was very responsible in death of mages and its delusional to blame Anders alone. No matter how self righteous you think Anders is (and I agree) what he did was selfless. self righteous but selfless.

 

 

I'd disagree- vengeance is a pretty selfish thing. Anders fixation was on how he had been affecting by things, not on abstracts he took offense with on general principle. He empathized and identified with people who faced what he felt, but only through his own fixation of the personal perception.

[Ryzaki]

Eww? :|

 

Yeah ew. Dalish elves are a no go for me. Just no. Annoy me almost as much as the damn Quarians.

 

If I can play a Qunari and crush them underfoot that would be fabulous.

[EmissaryofLies]

Do not use that word, Ryzaki. For you will summon the Talimancers. There will be no mercy.

[Lulupab]

And this... really has nothing to do with what you just quoted, or what you just quoted was quoting.

 

 

Correlation and causation fallacy there- the Netherland crime rate can have as much to do with other factors (especially the focus on criminal rehabilitation rather than punishment) as anti-corruption efforts. Which, if you know where to see, the government is a regular partner in crime in with other people's villainy.

 

Nor does it address the point that your system only remains as good as the adherence to its rules. It still retains the ability to illegally break them, which is the issue you were raising earlier.

 

 

 

I'd disagree- vengeance is a pretty selfish thing. Anders fixation was on how he had been affecting by things, not on abstracts he took offense with on general principle. He empathized and identified with people who faced what he felt, but only through his own fixation of the personal perception.

 

I just wanted to tell my view on the systems and how the should work. People who are responsible for applying Justice should not go corrupt and if they do they should be punished tenfold more severe than normal corruption and abusing. The current system of circles was impractical and just because there will be casualties doesn't mean we shouldn't try to change it. From what I gather you seem have fairy tale point of view on this regard and can't accept that when something doesn't work people try to change it, by any means necessary. That's just how masses work especially in a feudal age such as Thedas.

 

Gandhi doesn't and cannot exists in such an age. You know this. 

[Ryzaki]

Do not use that word, Ryzaki. For you will summon the Talimancers. There will be no mercy.

 

Pfft I've tangled with their side before.

 

I picked the Geth on Rannoch. They can deal with it.

[Steelcan]

Pfft I've tangled with their side before.

 

I picked the Geth on Rannoch. They can deal with it.

 

Geth make good scrap metal

[Lulupab]

Playing Dalish mage was a lifetime wish for me. DAO denied me that D:

[Sir DeLoria]

Do not use that word, Ryzaki. For you will summon the Talimancers. There will be no mercy.

Did someone call?

[Ryzaki]

Geth make good scrap metal

 

And lamps! And rannoch makes an excellent party planet :3

 

Wonder what my CE warden royal mistress is gonna say. I hope the Inq can say something stupid to her and get the eye.

[The Elder King]

Playing Dalish mage was a lifetime wish for me. DAO denied me that D:

Agreed. Still, I feel sad that they didn't include CE in DAI though. I could play a dalish in DAO.

[LobselVith8]

Playing Dalish mage was a lifetime wish for me. DAO denied me that D:

Now that's been corrected, and instead of serving the Wardens, you're the master of your own fledgling organization that's going to grow powerful and expansive, with the right actions.

[Cat Lance]

*snip*

That post was lovely. I think we see fairly eye to eye on this issue. I wish I had proper internet, instead of doing all this with my phone. So many details chasing themselves around in my head right now that I'd just love to turn into a tl;dr response to this!

You should frame that thing, seriously. What a beautifully crafted post. Thank you for sharing it!

[Dean_the_Young]

I just wanted to tell my view on the systems and how the should work. People who are responsible for applying Justice should not go corrupt and if they do they should be punished tenfold more severe than normal corruption and abusing.

This is a fair opinion to have: preferences on how reality should work are great. I have my own views of how things should work. But I don't confuse how I want things to work with how they actually work. And I certainly try to avoid non-falsifiable arguments that can just as well be used against my pet hobby horse.

 

The current system of circles was impractical and just because there will be casualties doesn't mean we shouldn't try to change it. From what I gather you seem have fairy tale point of view on this regard and can't accept that when something doesn't work people try to change it, by any means necessary. That's just how masses work especially in a feudal age such as Thedas.

 

 

Oh, I do accept that people will try to make changes by any means necessary. I just consider such people less than enlightened, because they lack perspective on how changes can often be worse than the original problem. I also understand that the masses aren't zealots, who are the ones who embrace 'at any costs' so lightly.

 

 

Gandhi doesn't and cannot exists in such an age. You know this.

 

 

Indeed. But Gandhi isn't needed for this: neither is a Mao, or a Black September, or any number of fools who confused 'at any cost' with 'necessary costs' and who were so self-absorbed they brought great harms to the greater good of the people.

 

There's a term that includes self-righteous people who would throw the world into a fire for their pet obsessions and think it moral and right, and that word is 'villain.'

[Lulupab]

Agreed. Still, I feel sad that they didn't include CE in DAI though. I could play a dalish in DAO.

 

Personally I kinda felt miserable when I played a CE on DAO. I was 2nd class citizen and mocked constantly, mistaken for a servant etc... Dalish elf had especial threaten dialogue for that ignorant human who mistakes him for a servant. Choosing that line was greatly satisfying.

 

Therefore I didn't have much like for CE. The Dalish are the true elves! 

 

Also long before this I had an idea that you have to be somebody to be the inquisitor and I kinda knew we won't have CE or Casteless dwarf because they are practically peasants. Whatever the dwarven inquisitor is he/she will not be casteless as their last name is Cadash and could easily be a noble. We'll probably play as surface former noble dwarf which is new and awesome in my opinion.

 

Now that's been corrected, and instead of serving the Wardens, you're the master of your own fledgling organization that's going to grow powerful and expansive, with the right actions.

 

Indeed. May the creators have mercy on enemies of the Dalish because I certainly won't.

[Ryzaki]

Now that's been corrected, and instead of serving the Wardens, you're the master of your own fledgling organization that's going to grow powerful and expansive, with the right actions.

 

Yeah too bad you can't do that as a City elf. *weeps bitter bitter tears*

 

Edit: @dalish are the true elves above *barfs* Another reason CE Inq is such a lost lost opportunity.

[Sir DeLoria]

Just no. Annoy me almost as much as the damn Quarians.

Come on Ry, how can you not love that sexy accent?

I do understand the hate for the Dalish though, they're racist fools who hate everyone but themselves.

[The Elder King]

Personally I kinda felt miserable when I played a CE on DAO. I was 2nd class citizen and mocked constantly, mistaken for a servant etc... Dalish elf had especial threaten dialogue for that ignorant human who mistakes him for a servant. Choosing that line was greatly satisfying.
 
Therefore I didn't have much like for CE. The Dalish are the true elves! May the creators have mercy on enemies of the Dalish because I certainly won't.
 
Also long before this I had an idea that you have to be somebody to be the inquisitor and I kinda knew we won't have CE or Casteless dwarf because they are practically peasants. Whatever the dwarven inquisitor is he/she will not be casteless as their last name is Cadash and could easily be a noble. We'll probably play as surface former noble dwarf which is new and awesome in my opinion.
 

 
Indeed. May the creators have mercy on enemies of the Dalish because I certainly won't.

Even if I like Dalish, I can't say I agree on your view on the CE. And I quite enjoyed playing as a CE in DAO.

[Ryzaki]

Bah screw their accents.

 

And ugh don't get me started on the dalish. Hopefully they'll be an option to screw them over yet again so I can lol.

[Sir DeLoria]

And ugh don't get me started on the dalish. Hopefully they'll be an option to screw them over yet again so I can lol.

Considering what my Warden and Hawke did to them, I'm surprised they still exist.

Well, not much longer I hope...

[The Elder King]

Considering what my Warden and Hawke did to them, I'm surprised they still exist.

You thought that those were the whole dalish clans?