8640 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Ummm, which mages do they enslave?

[EmissaryofLies]

Ummm, which mages do they enslave?

 

The bald ones of course.

[LobselVith8]

Ummm, which mages do they enslave?

Mages aren't exempt from being enslaved. Remember Fenris' sister, Varania?

[Lulupab]

Mages aren't exempt from being enslaved. Remember Fenris' sister, Varania?

 

As far as I know its totally illegal to make a Tevinter citizen a slave, mage or no. There are even Elven citizens in Tevinter who are not slaves and cannot be made one.

 

However anyone who is not from Tevinter is fair game, human, mage, elf, even Qunari.

 

I think the "boon" Fenris gave her sister made her a citizen so she was a slave no more.

[AlanC9]

Your entire beef with Alrik has been that he wasn't persecuted for his advocacy, and that this was a moral failing of the system. You have been condemning systematic abuses and a lack of systemic abuse against dissidents.
 

I thought he was just straight-up in favor of abuse, and the problem is that the abuse isn't being applied even-handedly

[Dean_the_Young]

I thought he was just straight-up in favor of abuse, and the problem is that the abuse isn't being applied even-handedly

 

I was hoping for something more lacking of self-awareness than malicious.

[Lulupab]

Its disturbing that Alrik's "Tranquil Solution" has parallels with Adolf Hitler's Final Solution.

 

That said he was just sick, he wanted a harem. Later in the game its proven that he abused the Tranquil and "showed them the way".

[EmissaryofLies]

Its disturbing that Alrik's "Tranquil Solution" has parallels with Adolf Hitler's Final Solution.

 

That said he was just sick, he wanted a harem. Later in the game its proven that he abused the Tranquil and "showed them the way".

 

This I cannot agree with.

 

Alrik is simply misunderstood. He just wanted to take care of the mages. Like you would take care of any dear friend.

Like with Ella, he was simply going to have her clean her messy living space, that's all. No harm, no foul.

 

There's nothing wrong with helping out friends is there?

[Lulupab]

This I cannot agree with.

 

Alrik is simply misunderstood. He just wanted to take care of the mages. Like you would take care of any dear friend.

Like with Ella, he was simply going to have her clean her messy living space, that's all. No harm, no foul.

 

There's nothing wrong with helping out friends is there?

 

Spoiler

[Mistic]

I don't know many people who would point to the Imperium as a model that should be emulated, given their enslavement of mages and non-mages.

 

True. But the question was about if peaceful yet meaningful changes could be possible in Thedas. Even if Tevinter's is an exception, it's still possible. That the change is good or bad is another matter entirely.

 

That brings us to another point: that a change is made peacefully doesn't mean it's good, the same way a violent change can have positive consequences.

[Dean_the_Young]

We can also look at the establishment of the Circle system, itself a successful change of the status quo with significant impacts and effects afterwards.

[Mistic]

We can also look at the establishment of the Circle system, itself a successful change of the status quo with significant impacts and effects afterwards.

 

Well, I'd say we don't know how peaceful it was since everything about the original Inquisition is shrouded in myth, but I'd dare to say you're right and it was a peaceful compromise between Inquisition and Chantry. More or less. Of course, it helped that the Second Blight had already started and when you face the end of the world, any other diatribe looks silly in comparison

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, I'd say we don't know how peaceful it was since everything about the original Inquisition is shrouded in myth, but I'd dare to say you're right and it was a peaceful compromise between Inquisition and Chantry. More or less. Of course, it helped that the Second Blight had already started and when you face the end of the world, any other diatribe looks silly in comparison

 

I'm not referring to the subjugation of the mages, establishment or the chantry, or even the expansion of the Circle system: I'm talking about when it was actually established.

 

Shouting from cathedral rafters was silly, but hardly violent. Even if calling an Exalted March on the Cathedral was a threat being raised. Except for a few unlit candles and sweaty runners, it's hard to think of anything more peaceful.

[Lulupab]

We can also look at the establishment of the Circle system, itself a successful change of the status quo with significant impacts and effects afterwards.

The circles were not established "peacefully". 

 

"If you're picturing mages as having any kind of organization with which the Chantry would have negotiated, then you're picturing it incorrectly.

In the time during which the Circle of Magi was created by the Chantry and the Inquisition, any mages outside of the Tevinter Imperium existed primarily as fugitives and loners. At best they formed small cabals. These would have been slowly and systematically dealt with by the newly-formed Circle as it expanded across Thedas, one tower built at a time... it did not spring up overnight over the entire continent. And the mages so subsumed had little choice in the matter. Considering that it was a time of chaos where anyone with magical talent was viewed with terror, I imagine there's no small number who were relieved to be offered protection-- no matter the price." -Gaider

[Dean_the_Young]

Wow, it's like you totally ignored the post write above yours.

 

Amazing.

[Lulupab]

Wow, it's like you totally ignored the post write above yours.

 

Amazing.

 

In that post you imply circles were created overnight

[Dean_the_Young]

In that post you imply circles were created overnight and all mages went there and said hello Templars, we have come to submit. It took years, almost a century.

 

Is this a language issue at work? Because that's not what's being implied there.

 

Before the Circles, there were mages already corralled and controlled. There were many who were not, but the don't change what did occur here: that a peaceful negotiation was conducted and in relatively short order the people who were already corralled and controlled were able to achieve a significant change to the social system without a campaign of violence.

 

That the system, in setting up and expanding, did use force in its implementation is a separate issue from the fact that it's creation and establishment was an output of a non-violent compromise.

[Mistic]

I'm not referring to the subjugation of the mages, establishment or the chantry, or even the expansion of the Circle system: I'm talking about when it was actually established.

 

Shouting from cathedral rafters was silly, but hardly violent. Even if calling an Exalted March on the Cathedral was a threat being raised. Except for a few unlit candles and sweaty runners, it's hard to think of anything more peaceful.

 

You're talking about the codex entry "History of the Circle", by Sister Petrine, don't you? Yes, that was peaceful; however, I doubt it was the establishment of the Circle, but the seclusion of the Circles in separated places. That or Petrine's is just a fable.

 

My reason to say this is that Petrine's codex contradicts the claims that the Circles were actually established by the Nevarran Accord with the Inquisition. Of course, maybe that establishment was another thing, and then the real thing happened as Petrine says. However, we do know that the Chantry has been obscuring information about the old Inquisition times.

[Lulupab]

Is this a language issue at work? Because that's not what's being implied there.

 

Before the Circles, there were mages already corralled and controlled. There were many who were not, but the don't change what did occur here: that a peaceful negotiation was conducted and in relatively short order the people who were already corralled and controlled were able to achieve a significant change to the social system without a campaign of violence.

 

That the system, in setting up and expanding, did use force in its implementation is a separate issue from the fact that it's creation and establishment was an output of a non-violent compromise.

 

We simply do no have enough information to claim that. We know that Inquisition hunted many mages and it was the chantry who suggested a better solution and it was after they found out they need the mages for disasters such as blights. Inquisition has its own share of violence prior to joining with Chantry and submitting to them.

 

When you say "I'm talking about when it was actually established." When do you mean? because it took a century to create circles worldwide and put down resistances. You imply it was all done in a short time which is false.

[KainD]

.Later in the game its proven that he abused the Tranquil.

 

People still insist that tranquil can be abused. They don't have feelings..

[The Elder King]

We simply do no have enough information to claim that. We know that Inquisition hunted many mages and it was the chantry who suggested a better solution and it was after they found out they need the mages for disasters such as blights. Inquisition has its own share of violence prior to joining with Chantry and submitting to them.
 
When you say "I'm talking about when it was actually established." When do you mean? because it took a century to create circles worldwide and put down resistances. You imply it was all done in a short time which is false.

The inquisition part is retconnetted by WoT.

[EmissaryofLies]

People still insist that tranquil can be abused. They don't have feelings..

 

It's like I'm talking to the Knight-Captain himself.

[The Elder King]

It's like I'm talking to the Knight-Captain himself.

The funny part is that Kain is pro-mage.

[LobselVith8]

The inquisition part is retconnetted by WoT.

Do you think the complaints about being forced to work for the Chantry or the templars via the Inquisition played a part in that? The WoT seemed to take great pains to depict it as a neutral organization, in contradiction to previously provided information.

[LobselVith8]

People still insist that tranquil can be abused. They don't have feelings..

Interestingly enough, WoT reads that the tranquil "lose all capacity for emotions", as well as addressing that while they have free will, "they rarely exorcise it." (page 101)