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[wcholcombe]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

So that is your definition of TOTAL CONTROL?
Seriously.

Dude. Mages have rights (for example, they cannot be made tranqul after the harrowing; apostates are to be brough in alive if possible, etc..) and they govern themselves.

It is nice to see that you can go away for 3 or 4 months and come back to the same exact arguments...

In response to this, this is Thedas, not 21st century earth.  Poor commoners in many of the nations have limited rights, dalish and city elves have limited or no rights, casteless dwarves have little or no rights.

Mages aren't guarunteed any rights, and they in no way govern themselves.

Not taking a side, just correcting a point of view.  The idea of Human rights doesn't really exist in Thedas, unless you have the power/influence/wealth to demand them.

In what sense? They are guaranteed some rights - I just mentioned them.
And they do govern themselves - they daily running of the circle and circle finances are their responsiblity -  but they don't police themselves.

Of course, you cannot really GUARANTEE rights, now can you?
Technicly, today you have basic human rights, but they still aren't absolute (given that someone may simply not give a frak about your rights) - nothing is absolute.

when we talk about having right, that means that it is generally accepted (by law) that you have rights. People breaking the law is another matter.

Maybe we are arguing semantics, but I will make my case this way-
Thedas is comparable to 15th century Europe give or take.  An aristocrate in Ferelden or Tevinter or Orlais or wheverever can kill a commoner, take his land, or do just about anything to them without retribution.  Why, because while commoners in Thedas are mostly technically free, they aren't really protected by any rights.  When Howe killed off the majority of the Human Noble family in DAO, he didn't have any price to pay.  Because in Ferelden its basically Might makes right-WOT, DAO wiki, etc. 

When it comes to Mages, they are only allowed to meet when the Divine/Templars allow it, at a moments notice they can be shut up in their rooms by the templars, and I actually have no clue about the money from the lyrium and enchanting.

But, in Thedas as in Midevil Europe, rights only exist when there is a method/power to ensure them. Rights even today are largely provided by laws.  In Thedas if you are a noble, there isn't much of anything legally protecting a commoner from you.  There is no legal guaruntee of rights for people or mages.  They do not have nor do they employ the 21st century view of rights.  Which is part of why I get so frustrated with the philosophical arguments that arise over mages. 

[Br3admax]

durasteel wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
Ah, the "They had is coming," argument. Because that justifies killing innocent people for the country they were born in, and the religion they believe in. 

The argument seems to be very effective when used against the elves.

That's probably because the elves are the only one who did this. I think Orlais went to far, but they had every right to fight against the invading nation. 

[Br3admax]

[quote]TheKomandorShepard wrote...

[quote]Br3ad wrote...


Ah, the "They had is coming," argument. Because that justifies killing innocent people for the country they were born in, and the religion they believe in. 

[/quote]

Wait we are talking about dales , orlais or chantry because this fits to every 3 of them
[/quote]
No it doesn't. 
[quote]
Simple there is no reason agrgue who was justified because if you want you can justify everything some will accept justification others not. 
[/quote]
Nope, not whaat anyone was saying at all.
[quote]
If you argue who was clean i can say that no one because we don't have clean organisation or country in dragon age at best we have grey.
[/quote]
No one argued this either.
[quote
If you argue who was blame you can blame everyone you want...

And that was for everyone who try blame elves or chantry or orlais...

[/quote]
I'd blame Orlais for doing nothing while its people are being raped and pillaged. Not for defending itself. Destroying the Dales was taking it much too far, but invading for a countermeasure is far from being wrong. 

[MisterJB]

durasteel wrote...

The attacks the Orlesians were trying to justify comprised the "human intrusion" that the Dales were trying to defend themselves from. It is interesting that those attacks aren't considered "war" but the attack of a small elven raiding party on a human village is.

Attacks? Nothing in there says anything about human attacks, that is your own assumption. Intrusion can mean anything form attacks to illegal immigration.

http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_The_Dales

That codex entry refers how the Dales rebuked "all efforts at trade or civilized discourse". Combine that with the knowledge that missionaries were sent to the Dales and it's far more likely that "intrusion" is referring to missionaries, merchants and diplomats.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 février 2014 - 05:43 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Br3ad wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Br3ad wrote...


Ah, the "They had is coming," argument. Because that justifies killing innocent people for the country they were born in, and the religion they believe in. 

Wait we are talking about dales , orlais or chantry because this fits to every 3 of them

No it doesn't. 

Simple there is no reason agrgue who was justified because if you want you can justify everything some will accept justification others not. 

Nope, not whaat anyone was saying at all.

If you argue who was clean i can say that no one because we don't have clean organisation or country in dragon age at best we have grey.

No one argued this either.

If you argue who was blame you can blame everyone you want...

And that was for everyone who try blame elves or chantry or orlais...

I'd blame Orlais for doing nothing while its people are being raped and pillaged. Not for defending itself. Destroying the Dales was taking it much too far, but invading for a countermeasure is far from being wrong. 

Haha of coruse just orlais and chantry-ferelden and for dales orlais... naive if you belive they don't when they did;)

Yep you were trying justify orlais when other part tried 
justify elves when if you want you can just justify that with simple orlais/dales wanting more land take that or not it is justification as well.

Yes you can blame everyone you want someone blame connor for redcliff indycent , someone isolde , someone jowan and someone demon take your pick... same here

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 19 février 2014 - 05:51 .

[dragonflight288]

Not to be the stick in the mud, but if we're going to discuss elves and the Dales, and who was right or wrong, let's make a thread about it as this one is about the mage/templar conflict.

[wcholcombe]

I believe the human incursions into the Dales were referring to the attempts to spread the chant of light and than later the use of Templars to protect the missionaries.

Personally both the Dalish and the Orlesians/Chantry blew it with how it was handled. When it escalated to open war things changed dramatically and to try and justify one side over the other is an exercise in futility.

Did the Orlesian's over react by more or less destroying the Dales? Yes. Should the current generation be punished for what happened during a war before they were even thought of? No.

A real world Comp: Should Germany be siezed for Jewish people because of the Holocaust? Should China suddenly own Japan because of what the Japanese did to the Chinese in WW2? Should the Siberians own the Kremlin because of Stalins purges? Should all Americans be killed off and the U.S. given to the surviving Native Americans due to the Indian Wars? Should the Spain belong to the Moors because of the acts committed reconquering Spain in the 1400s from the Moors? Should the Irish own England? etc etc etc

[Br3admax]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...



Haha of coruse just orlais and chantry-ferelden and for dales orlais... naive if you belive they don't when they did;)

What does this even mean?

Yep you were trying justify orlais when other part tried 
justify elves when if you want you can just justify that with simple orlais/dales wanting more land take that or not it is justification as well.

Who said that justified anything? No one. If someone comes and sacks your capital, you are completely justified in attacking them. Simple as that. 

Yes you can blame everyone you want someone blame connor for redcliff indycent , someone isolde , someone jowan and someone demon take your pick... same here

No, don't really blame an uneducated child for being afraid. As to the others, that's probably because they were actually all guilty. To my knowledge, it was the Templars in Oralis trying to spread the Chant, and the elves killed them because they either felt threatned by this, or they were human. Either way, that did not justify attacking Orlais. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Br3ad wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...



Haha of coruse just orlais and chantry-ferelden and for dales orlais... naive if you belive they don't when they did;)

What does this even mean?

Yep you were trying justify orlais when other part tried 
justify elves when if you want you can just justify that with simple orlais/dales wanting more land take that or not it is justification as well.

Who said that justified anything? No one. If someone comes and sacks your capital, you are completely justified in attacking them. Simple as that. 

Yes you can blame everyone you want someone blame connor for redcliff indycent , someone isolde , someone jowan and someone demon take your pick... same here

No, don't really blame an uneducated child for being afraid. As to the others, that's probably because they were actually all guilty. To my knowledge, it was the Templars in Oralis trying to spread the Chant, and the elves killed them because they either felt threatned by this, or they were human. Either way, that did not justify attacking Orlais. 

Does something like orlais-ferelden war say something about that?

See you are trying justyfie them but as i said i can start justify elves as well take it or no...

Yes i can... i can blame even arl eamon just because you think that you can't blame someone doesn't mean that i can't he was one who caused that so i can just because you think that he is children so he shouldn't be blamed doesn't mean he shouldn't...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 19 février 2014 - 06:01 .

[durasteel]

Br3ad wrote...
That's probably because the elves are the only one who did this. I think Orlais went to far, but they had every right to fight against the invading nation. 

I think it's more complicated than that. Also, it wasn't Orlais that wiped out the Dales, it was the Exalted March.

Here's what I think happened. I am aware that I could be wrong.

I suspect that there were those in Orlais and within the heirarchy of the Chantry who had resented Maferath's grant of the Dales to the elves for generations, and eventually they decided to see if they could do something about it. Orlesian raiders began the intrusions into the Dales, thinking that this nation of former slaves would be a collection of easy targets.

The elves of the Dales, remembering Tevinter, were probably predisposed to consider any incursion as a precursor to an all-out attack designed to return them all to slavery. They formed the Emerald Knights and began a campaign to defend themselves aggressively. 

I imagine that the raid on Red Crossing was pretty standard, in that people were killed, things were broken, and whatever was wanted was taken. The Olesians took the opportunity to describe the event with tales of unspeakable horrors, probably including cannibalism and defiling of corpses, wholesale rape, and the slaughter of children.

I find it unlikely that Montisimmard would have fallen if it had been prepared for an attack, so I suspect the elves took it by stealth or, equally probably, because the guards simply weren't paying attention. Then the elves started marching toward VR.

Again, I could be wrong, but I don't think they would have been able to actually sack the capital. Meeting the main Orlesian force on the battlefield would probalby not have been an elven victory, unless the Orlesian general was breathtakingly incompetent (always a possibility, I admit.) 

This gave the Chantry the opportunity it had been looking for, and the Exalted March was declared to appease the ire of Holy Mother Church over the elven rejection of the Cult of the Maker, and to rid Orlais of the blemish of a so-called homeland for the knife-ears.

In short, I think the end result was the objective from the beginning. Everything in between was just Orlesian politics.

Modifié par durasteel, 19 février 2014 - 06:03 .

[durasteel]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Not to be the stick in the mud, but if we're going to discuss elves and the Dales, and who was right or wrong, let's make a thread about it as this one is about the mage/templar conflict.

It is relevant in the context of the objectives and behavior of the Chantry, which is the driving force behind the pogrom against mages in Thedas.

[The Elder King]

@durasteel: Orlais was weakened, since it was still recovering from the Second Blight (while the elves didn't partecipate in it). It seems reasonable that the elves were strong enough to invade successfully a weakened Orlais.
, I disagree with your theory, as I already said. 
About the partecipante of the EM against the Dales, I can't find a source from what I recall. 

Modifié par hhh89, 19 février 2014 - 06:10 .

[durasteel]

hhh89 wrote...
Regardless of the second part, I disagree with your theory, as I already said.

You might be right, but as far as I can tell if the Orlesians were living in peaceful coexistence with the elves of the Dales, it would be one of the few times in the nation's history they weren't looking to beat up their neighbors to take their stuff.

[The Elder King]

durasteel wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Regardless of the second part, I disagree with your theory, as I already said.

You might be right, but as far as I can tell if the Orlesians were living in peaceful coexistence with the elves of the Dales, it would be one of the few times in the nation's history they weren't looking to beat up their neighbors to take their stuff.

I never said that I believe that the Orlesians didn't want to conquer the Dales. I said that the invasion of their own land wasn't what they wanted, expecially in their weakened state.

[durasteel]

wcholcombe wrote...
...Should the Spain belong to the Moors because of the acts committed reconquering Spain in the 1400s from the Moors? Should the Irish own England? etc etc etc

While I get your point, I would like to point out that the Moors conquered Spain before the Spaniards (actually, mostly the second sons of Norman French nobility) conquered it back. That seems to be justice on some level, doesn't it?

The Irish don't want England. They do very much want Ireland, however. All of it. You can kind of see where they're coming from, can't you? After all, it has their name on it.

So the question becomes, following your line of thought, should the elves get the Dales back?

[durasteel]

hhh89 wrote...
I never said that I believe that the Orlesians didn't want to conquer the Dales. I said that the invasion of their own land wasn't what they wanted, expecially in their weakened state.

I'm not saying it all went perfectly according to plan, only that they got what they were after and they probably set the whole chain of events in motion with that objective in mind.

[wcholcombe]

durasteel wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...
...Should the Spain belong to the Moors because of the acts committed reconquering Spain in the 1400s from the Moors? Should the Irish own England? etc etc etc

While I get your point, I would like to point out that the Moors conquered Spain before the Spaniards (actually, mostly the second sons of Norman French nobility) conquered it back. That seems to be justice on some level, doesn't it?

The Irish don't want England. They do very much want Ireland, however. All of it. You can kind of see where they're coming from, can't you? After all, it has their name on it.

So the question becomes, following your line of thought, should the elves get the Dales back?

I can totally see it, and that is what my point was in response to.  Mostly because the attrocities committed were by a previous generation-IN the case of the Dales, very previous. 

Giving the Dales back to the Dalish now, would be comparable to the forced removal of U.S. citizens form the U.S.A. and giving it to the Native Americans or forcibly removing all non irish from Ireland etc.  If you truly support the idea of returning the dales, you support the previous two examples as well.  Along with kickin all non aztecs and Mayans out of Mexico, all non Incans and such out of South America, the Israelis out of Israel, and all non indigenous peoples out of Australia.

[durasteel]

On a side note, I'll bet it makes David Gaider squee when he sees us get this deep into the weeds discussing his fictional universe as if it were real history. I know I would.

[wcholcombe]

durasteel wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
I never said that I believe that the Orlesians didn't want to conquer the Dales. I said that the invasion of their own land wasn't what they wanted, expecially in their weakened state.

I'm not saying it all went perfectly according to plan, only that they got what they were after and they probably set the whole chain of events in motion with that objective in mind.

Only question I have on that would be the fact that they are basically the same people who gave the Dales to the Dalish.  Andraste didn't, it was after she was dead. 

True there were bitter feelings towards the dalish for their refusal to help in the 2nd Blight, which probably fueled some of this.

[durasteel]

wcholcombe wrote...
...Giving the Dales back to the Dalish now, would be comparable to the forced removal of U.S. citizens form the U.S.A. and giving it to the Native Americans or forcibly removing all non irish from Ireland etc. 

There is a distinction, though, in that there doesn't seem to be much settlement in the Dales since the time of the elves. It's hard to tell just looking at the map, but it looks like pretty wild country.

[durasteel]

wcholcombe wrote...
Only question I have on that would be the fact that they are basically the same people who gave the Dales to the Dalish.  Andraste didn't, it was after she was dead. 

It was Maferath, Andraste's husband, who was an Avvar from what is in the Dragon Age the kingdom of Ferelden. The fact that he gave the Dales to the elves probably bunches up some Orlesian britches.

Edit: Especially after Hessarian joined the club and revealed that Maferath had betrayed Andraste to Tevinter, leading to her death by BBQ.

Modifié par durasteel, 19 février 2014 - 06:30 .

[wcholcombe]

My memory says that the Olesians not only removed the Dalish from the Dales but resettled the area with Orlesians. If it was roughly uninhabited, there would be nothing to keep the dalish from being there.

[wcholcombe]

durasteel wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...
Only question I have on that would be the fact that they are basically the same people who gave the Dales to the Dalish.  Andraste didn't, it was after she was dead. 

It was Maferath, Andraste's husband, who was an Avvar from what is in the Dragon Age the kingdom of Ferelden. The fact that he gave the Dales to the elves probably bunches up some Orlesian britches.

Thats right, but I was speaking more in terms of Chantry/Orlesian faith.  Again I think the majority of it was backlash at the Dalish for not helping in the 2nd blight.

[durasteel]

wcholcombe wrote...
Thats right, but I was speaking more in terms of Chantry/Orlesian faith.  Again I think the majority of it was backlash at the Dalish for not helping in the 2nd blight.

That makes sense.

[The Elder King]

durasteel wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
I never said that I believe that the Orlesians didn't want to conquer the Dales. I said that the invasion of their own land wasn't what they wanted, expecially in their weakened state.

I'm not saying it all went perfectly according to plan, only that they got what they were after and they probably set the whole chain of events in motion with that objective in mind.

Orlais probably got what it wants, if they want to conquer the Dales (a reasonable theory based on its history, but we can't say for sure if they wanted the Dales). I still don't think their plan was to get invaded by the elves. Even If they wanted a war with the elves, they'd have likely waited for a better time, after they recovered from the Blight.