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[Iakus]

eluvianix wrote...

iakus wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Are event described in WoT true part of history or just like codex entry?

I would say that they are probably the most accurate information we have at the moment.

They're as accurate as any researched topic you;ll find in a history book.  The author believes the events to be true and accurate, and researched them thoroughly.  But he may be mistaken or letting preconceived notions cloud his judgement.

True, perhaps. But we must make do with what we have, considering that no information we have is unbiased. It's the best we have at the moment.

Indeed.  the information is likely "true", from a certain point of view, as old Ben Kenobi would say.  But there could be erroneous details mixed in to make one side or the other look good.

[LobselVith8]

durasteel wrote...

The attacks the Orlesians were trying to justify comprised the "human intrusion" that the Dales were trying to defend themselves from. It is interesting that those attacks aren't considered "war" but the attack of a small elven raiding party on a human village is.

That certainly seems to be in line with the Dalish perspective on the historical event, where templar incursion into their nation is mentioned in their codex.

I'm hoping that the narrative allows for the protagonist to express certain cultural points of view, since not everyone is going to hold the same views on issues - the Dalish Inquisitor talking about the Beyond, spirits (as opposed to Spirits and Demons of the Andrastian faith), and being able to express the historical account of the fall of the Dales from the Dalish point of view would be interesting.

Even the Mage-Templar War might be viewed with a different lense from the viewpoint of the Dwarven, Tal-Vashoth, or Dalish Inquisitor, who might have varying perspectives on the schism between the Circles and the Seekers.

[wcholcombe]

LobselVith8 wrote...

durasteel wrote...

The attacks the Orlesians were trying to justify comprised the "human intrusion" that the Dales were trying to defend themselves from. It is interesting that those attacks aren't considered "war" but the attack of a small elven raiding party on a human village is.

That certainly seems to be in line with the Dalish perspective on the historical event, where templar incursion into their nation is mentioned in their codex.

I'm hoping that the narrative allows for the protagonist to express certain cultural points of view, since not everyone is going to hold the same views on issues - the Dalish Inquisitor talking about the Beyond, spirits (as opposed to Spirits and Demons of the Andrastian faith), and being able to express the historical account of the fall of the Dales from the Dalish point of view would be interesting.

Spirits and demons aren't Andrastian term.  Tevinter Magisters began catergorizing spirits by the emotions they feed off of centuries before Andraste was born.

It does surprise me btw, that the Dalish have a different view of it considering during their 1000 year enslavement where they lost their culture and language, they somehow held onto their view of the fade?  Just a curious observation.

[LobselVith8]

wcholcombe wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That certainly seems to be in line with the Dalish perspective on the historical event, where templar incursion into their nation is mentioned in their codex.

I'm hoping that the narrative allows for the protagonist to express certain cultural points of view, since not everyone is going to hold the same views on issues - the Dalish Inquisitor talking about the Beyond, spirits (as opposed to Spirits and Demons of the Andrastian faith), and being able to express the historical account of the fall of the Dales from the Dalish point of view would be interesting. 

Spirits and demons aren't Andrastian term.  Tevinter Magisters began catergorizing spirits by the emotions they feed off of centuries before Andraste was born.

The Dalish recognize that certain spirits exhibit certain characteristics (since Merrill addresses a Sloth Demon as a creature of sloth, and cautions Hawke about it's nature as a result), but they don't seem to share the view that Spirits and Demons are different for the reasons that Andrastians do, as we know from Anders' religious debates with Merrill:

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons.
Merrill: Did I ask you?

Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.

Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.

Like Merrill says in another discussion, spirits are as different and varied as humans.

wcholcombe wrote...

It does surprise me btw, that the Dalish have a different view of it considering during their 1000 year enslavement where they lost their culture and language, they somehow held onto their view of the fade?  Just a curious observation. 

The Dalish did hold onto some of their culture, despite their enslavement and the fall of their second kingdom - including their knowledge of some elven language, some of their cultural heritage and lore (like the Eternal City in the Beyond), and even their gods - the Creators. They do admit the gaps in their knowledge, like the missing information about the Forgotten Ones, for example.

[Master Warder Z_]

durasteel wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

She said she found that the clergy among the Chantry to be prideful and of the mind that being among the choosen made them speical and therefore worthy of savalation. She disagreed on the point that the Maker created all things and thus all things were worthy of savalation.

You're forgetting a fundamental disagreement she had with the Chantry dogma regarding the Maker. Leliana believed that the Maker had sent her a dream, which was the basis for her willingness to join the Warden in the first place. This was proof in her mind that the Maker remained involved in his creation, while the Chantry holds as a central tennet of faith that the Maker is gone, departed entirely from the world he created because the mortals killed his "bride" Andraste. Only when the Chant of Light is sung from every corner of Thedas will He return, blah blah blah.

If the Maker speaks to his faithful in dreams, then he hasn't left, and the Chantry is wrong. Mother What's-her-name in Lothering scolds Leliana for her belief that the Maker spoke to her, stating outright that it is completely contrary to Chantry doctrine.

Personally? I'm of the Mind of the Chantry and the Ancient man who actually knew the Prophet personally who basically straight up stated she was lying through her teeth when it came to her visions.

It was a pathetic grasp for attention.

[wcholcombe]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]wcholcombe wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

That certainly seems to be in line with the Dalish perspective on the historical event, where templar incursion into their nation is mentioned in their codex.

I'm hoping that the narrative allows for the protagonist to express certain cultural points of view, since not everyone is going to hold the same views on issues - the Dalish Inquisitor talking about the Beyond, spirits (as opposed to Spirits and Demons of the Andrastian faith), and being able to express the historical account of the fall of the Dales from the Dalish point of view would be interesting. [/quote]

Spirits and demons aren't Andrastian term.  Tevinter Magisters began catergorizing spirits by the emotions they feed off of centuries before Andraste was born. [/quote]

The Dalish recognize that certain spirits exhibit certain characteristics (since Merrill addresses a Sloth Demon as a creature of sloth, and cautions Hawke about it's nature as a result), but they don't seem to share the view that Spirits and Demons are different for the reasons that Andrastians do, as we know from Anders' religious debates with Merrill:

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons.
Merrill: Did I ask you?

Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.

Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.

Like Merrill says in another discussion, spirits are as different and varied as humans.
[/qoute]

My point was that the spirits as emotions isn't Andrastian.  I know the elves view it differently, but the idea of calling the spirits spirits and associating them with emotions predates Andraste by centuries.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

dragonflight288 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

ShadowLordXII wrote...

Here, I get the impression that Asunder is retconning the origins of the Mage-Templar War after DAII explicitely stated that the Kirkwall Breakdown was the start of the conflict. Asunder essentially renders the struggles of Hawke as pointless in the overall picture since according to Asunder, all Hawke did was kick over a bucket of oil but someone else actually set it on fire.

A way I've come to look at it is comparing it to the two arat points of the American Cicil War. The Kirkwall Incident is akin to the Battle of Lexington and Concord in 1775, which was the first battle of the revolution. The abolishment of the Circle of Magi in Asunder is akin to the signing of the Declaration of Independence in 1776, which made the war official.

I'm being a bit nitpicky, but those battles were the American Revolutionary War. The American Civil war was in the 1800's with famous battles like Gettysburg, Fredericksburg, and was led not by Washington or Charles Lee but by Robert E Lee, Stonewall Jackson, and a whole host of Northern generals. 

Whoops. I meant to put Revolutionary War. I even put revolution later in the post. 

[Master Warder Z_]

[quote]wcholcombe wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]wcholcombe wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

That certainly seems to be in line with the Dalish perspective on the historical event, where templar incursion into their nation is mentioned in their codex.

I'm hoping that the narrative allows for the protagonist to express certain cultural points of view, since not everyone is going to hold the same views on issues - the Dalish Inquisitor talking about the Beyond, spirits (as opposed to Spirits and Demons of the Andrastian faith), and being able to express the historical account of the fall of the Dales from the Dalish point of view would be interesting. [/quote]

Spirits and demons aren't Andrastian term.  Tevinter Magisters began catergorizing spirits by the emotions they feed off of centuries before Andraste was born. [/quote]

The Dalish recognize that certain spirits exhibit certain characteristics (since Merrill addresses a Sloth Demon as a creature of sloth, and cautions Hawke about it's nature as a result), but they don't seem to share the view that Spirits and Demons are different for the reasons that Andrastians do, as we know from Anders' religious debates with Merrill:

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons.
Merrill: Did I ask you?

Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.

Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.

Like Merrill says in another discussion, spirits are as different and varied as humans.
[/qoute]

My point was that the spirits as emotions isn't Andrastian.  I know the elves view it differently, but the idea of calling the spirits spirits and associating them with emotions predates Andraste by centuries.

[/quote]

Personally? I find this line by Fenris pretty much sums up Merril to a T.

Fenris: Ignore the tiger not its fault its going to eat you.

._. Idiotic Blood Mage Craven.

[LobselVith8]

wcholcombe wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish recognize that certain spirits exhibit certain characteristics (since Merrill addresses a Sloth Demon as a creature of sloth, and cautions Hawke about it's nature as a result), but they don't seem to share the view that Spirits and Demons are different for the reasons that Andrastians do, as we know from Anders' religious debates with Merrill:

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons.

Merrill: Did I ask you?

Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.

Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.

Like Merrill says in another discussion, spirits are as different and varied as humans. 

My point was that the spirits as emotions isn't Andrastian.  I know the elves view it differently, but the idea of calling the spirits spirits and associating them with emotions predates Andraste by centuries. 

All right, I think I understand what you mean.

In regards to that, the Andrastians and the Dalish don't seem to disagree on that point - it's just breaking it down further into Andrastians viewing some of the denizens of the Fade as Demons representing "different sins" and viewing the other denizens of the Fade as Spirits, also viewed as beneficial spirits who are the First Children of the Maker, is where the schism between the Andrastians and the Dalish breaks down. The Dalish even view all spirits of the Beyond as dangerous, and avoid schools of magic which involve spirits (per WoT), which is why Merrill's use of blood magic was so controversial, since she learned it from Audacity.

The various cultural and religious views interest me, and I think it would be nice to see the non-Andrastian cultural views explored further. It's also something that I hope is reflected in the dialogue with the different Inquisitors, since the backgrounds should represent different cultural views.

[Taleroth]

As far as I'm concerned, the ship has sailed on making the conflict balanced.

In DAO, the conflict was unconvincing. The harrowing still doesn't make any sense to me, it's just an invitation to possession. The Mages and Templars leaders act like brothers, sometimes friends, sometimes petty rivals. And the entire demonic incursion is solved by 4 people, which included 0 real templars, and probably a mage or two. And after it all, nobody really seemed to act like there was any great loss. Irving sounded like he was just bothered about having to repaint the tower. Not that there was some great tragedy that could only have been averted if they'd locked people in towers and had Templars that weren't useless do-nothings.

In DA2, the conflict was fueled by crazy people and fools. Templars run by crazy people, every mage is an abomination despite the Templars being even more zealous, or perhaps because of it.

Three games in, I think it's time to move on to something else.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Master Warder Z wrote...

durasteel wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

She said she found that the clergy among the Chantry to be prideful and of the mind that being among the choosen made them speical and therefore worthy of savalation. She disagreed on the point that the Maker created all things and thus all things were worthy of savalation.

You're forgetting a fundamental disagreement she had with the Chantry dogma regarding the Maker. Leliana believed that the Maker had sent her a dream, which was the basis for her willingness to join the Warden in the first place. This was proof in her mind that the Maker remained involved in his creation, while the Chantry holds as a central tennet of faith that the Maker is gone, departed entirely from the world he created because the mortals killed his "bride" Andraste. Only when the Chant of Light is sung from every corner of Thedas will He return, blah blah blah.

If the Maker speaks to his faithful in dreams, then he hasn't left, and the Chantry is wrong. Mother What's-her-name in Lothering scolds Leliana for her belief that the Maker spoke to her, stating outright that it is completely contrary to Chantry doctrine.

Personally? I'm of the Mind of the Chantry and the Ancient man who actually knew the Prophet personally who basically straight up stated she was lying through her teeth when it came to her visions.

It was a pathetic grasp for attention.

Wait. Who was that?

[Veruin]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Wait. Who was that?

I assume the liar is Leliana and the Ancient Man is that guardian spirit you talk to at the start of the Gauntlet that guards the Sacred Ashes.

[Master Warder Z_]

Veruin wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Wait. Who was that?

I assume the liar is Leliana and the Ancient Man is that guardian spirit you talk to at the start of the Gauntlet that guards the Sacred Ashes.

Bingo.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Veruin wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Wait. Who was that?

I assume the liar is Leliana and the Ancient Man is that guardian spirit you talk to at the start of the Gauntlet that guards the Sacred Ashes.

Bingo.

Oh. Wow, I must be tired. I read it as an ancient person claiming Andraste was lying for attention, hence my confusion.

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Personally? I find this line by Fenris pretty much sums up Merril to a T.

Fenris: Ignore the tiger not its fault its going to eat you.

._. Idiotic Blood Mage Craven. 

I rather liked Merrill, and I respected her for trying to end the plight of the People. I think about this quote from Merrill when I think about the character: "Anders... there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."

I'm hoping that, in the playthrough where Merrill opposed Meredith at the heart of templar power over eastern Thedas, the Dalish Inquisitor can speak positively about her, similar to how an apostate Champion can be a hero to the mages if Hawke opposes Meredith's Right of Annulment, in the same way a supporter of Meredith can become a hero to the templars by aiding the Knight-Commander.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Personally? I find this line by Fenris pretty much sums up Merril to a T.

Fenris: Ignore the tiger not its fault its going to eat you.

._. Idiotic Blood Mage Craven. 

I rather liked Merrill, and I respected her for trying to end the plight of the People. I think about this quote from Merrill when I think about the character: "Anders... there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."

I'm hoping that, in the playthrough where Merrill opposed Meredith at the heart of templar power over eastern Thedas, the Dalish Inquisitor can speak positively about her, similar to how an apostate Champion can be a hero to the mages if Hawke opposes Meredith's Right of Annulment, in the same way a supporter of Meredith can become a hero to the templars by aiding the Knight-Commander.

I know that since the Elf Mage will have a Dalish backstory, I plan on making a Merrill.

[Master Warder Z_]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Personally? I find this line by Fenris pretty much sums up Merril to a T.

Fenris: Ignore the tiger not its fault its going to eat you.

._. Idiotic Blood Mage Craven. 

I rather liked Merrill, and I respected her for trying to end the plight of the People. I think about this quote from Merrill when I think about the character: "Anders... there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."

I'm hoping that, in the playthrough where Merrill opposed Meredith at the heart of templar power over eastern Thedas, the Dalish Inquisitor can speak positively about her, similar to how an apostate Champion can be a hero to the mages if Hawke opposes Meredith's Right of Annulment, in the same way a supporter of Meredith can become a hero to the templars by aiding the Knight-Commander.

I know that since the Elf Mage will have a Dalish backstory, I plan on making a Merrill.

I plan on beheading a merril if she pops up in game 

[MisterJB]

Yep, LobselVith8 is in the house. This is now an elven thread.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Personally? I find this line by Fenris pretty much sums up Merril to a T.

Fenris: Ignore the tiger not its fault its going to eat you.

._. Idiotic Blood Mage Craven. 

I rather liked Merrill, and I respected her for trying to end the plight of the People. I think about this quote from Merrill when I think about the character: "Anders... there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."

I'm hoping that, in the playthrough where Merrill opposed Meredith at the heart of templar power over eastern Thedas, the Dalish Inquisitor can speak positively about her, similar to how an apostate Champion can be a hero to the mages if Hawke opposes Meredith's Right of Annulment, in the same way a supporter of Meredith can become a hero to the templars by aiding the Knight-Commander.

I know that since the Elf Mage will have a Dalish backstory, I plan on making a Merrill.

I plan on beheading a merril if she pops up in game 

You plan on beheading any mage in this game if an opportunity presents itself, so I'm not surprised.:innocent:

[Master Warder Z_]

MisterJB wrote...

Yep, LobselVith8 is in the house. This is now an elven thread.

Pfft.

Last i bothered to check that the only replies getting response to were of things at least vaguely relating to the thread.

Not a knife earred race that will be extinct in  a few generations.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

Yep, LobselVith8 is in the house. This is now an elven thread.

Yep, JB is in the house. Witty comments and anti-magery galore!

[MisterJB]

It wasn't meant as an insult, actually.

[Hellion Rex]

Master Warder Z wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Yep, LobselVith8 is in the house. This is now an elven thread.

Pfft.

Last i bothered to check that the only replies getting response to were of things at least vaguely relating to the thread.

Not a knife earred race that will be extinct in  a few generations.

Meh. The concept art makes me think otherwise.

[durasteel]

The Guardian of the Gauntlet challenges the will and courage of everyone other than Dog and Shale. He tries to use doubt and regret to weaken the Warden's and companions' resolve before A Test of Faith to reach the Urn.

As I remember it, when he challenges Leliana's faith in her vision, she responds without doubt or hesitation, although she sounds annoyed. Been a while since I saw the conversation.

[Master Warder Z_]

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Yep, LobselVith8 is in the house. This is now an elven thread.

Pfft.

Last i bothered to check that the only replies getting response to were of things at least vaguely relating to the thread.

Not a knife earred race that will be extinct in  a few generations.

Meh. The concept art makes me think otherwise.

Well yeah it is Lob.

He will try to turn everything into a Dalish thread.