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Uneven Presentation of the mage-templar conflict


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#876
Master Warder Z_

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

We should really have a honest to goodness templar in the party, not a reject templar like alistar or a anti-magic or pro-chanty member like fenris or sebastion who don't actually have any investment in the mage and templar struggle and are more just out to make their own points.

I want someone who will do for templars what these constant apostate companions do for mages and argue strongly for their side dammit.


I was hoping we would get either Lambert or some kind of Seeker (Besides Cass) in DAI but given that isn't going to happen...well i fear we will be with out their perspective for quite a while.

Perhaps in the future eh?

#877
Mistic

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

I want someone who will do for templars what these constant apostate companions do for mages and argue strongly for their side dammit. The entire conflict's portryal has been far too one sided from the very start and it's about time we got to changing it.

Like Evangeline in Asunder, I suppose. That would be great. People are talking a lot about the possible addition of Cullen, so maybe that is the idea.

#878
Master Warder Z_

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Misticsan wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I want someone who will do for templars what these constant apostate companions do for mages and argue strongly for their side dammit. The entire conflict's portryal has been far too one sided from the very start and it's about time we got to changing it.

Like Evangeline in Asunder, I suppose. That would be great. People are talking a lot about the possible addition of Cullen, so maybe that is the idea.


Erm...I'd not consider her a templar by this point.

.__. And her views were too soft for my tastes to begin with; Not to mention taking your charge into your bed just complicates and muddles perspective anyway.

#879
ShadowLordXII

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durasteel wrote...

Returning to the issue raised in the OP, I've noticed that a great many Codex entries are written from the perspective of Brother Genitivi, who is understandably a Chantry apologist, sympathetic to the Templar Order and the Circle system.

I think this is more than offset by the fact that the player character always has an apostate companion, sometimes more than one. They are vigorous critics of the circle and advocates of mage freedom. By contrast, companions who are in a position to defend the Circle, like Wynn, tend to give a more balanced perspective instead of a full-bore defense of the system.

The companions who do advocate in favor of the Chantry's mage pogrom, like Sebastian and Fenris, tend to be annoying for other reasons. Of course the big revelation in the Fenris story is that he actually volunteered for the lyrium tattoos that he's been whining about, and that before his memory loss he wasn't nearly so anti-mage.

I don't think there is much question, at least in my mind, as to whether the presentation of the conflict is even. There are, however, interesting questions on the other side of that inquiry. Can the presentation be even? Should it be?

You will presumably always have perspectives of those who were abducted from their prior lives and interred in a Circle of Magi concentration camp, subjected to Templar control, knew people lobotomised into Tranquility, and threatened with death if they stepped out of line or even tried to see their families. How do you balance that?

You can make logical arguments about safety all you want to, but that is a poor counter to a personal sob story. The worst case scenario that a player character will hear regarding mage badness anywhere outside of Tevinter is a situation that has either already been resolved or one that the PC will personally resolve in fairly short order, while the Templars' pogrom against the mages is ongoing with no end in sight.

Not everything can be even.


Maybe it isn't supposed to be even, that is a good point.

I'm fairly an anti-chantry player myself considering all of the shady or outright evil stuff that the Chantry does:

On one hand, they preach that blood magic is evil, but they use it to track mages through phylacteries.
They say that magic is not meant to dominate others, but the templars are honestly a personal army of lyrium-addled magic knights who do exactly that.
The Chantry knowingly addicts it's templars to lyrium in order to control them. It more or less turns a blind eye to elven oppression and outright encourages it.
They've been shown to have a heavy slant towards Orlais in the past and may still do in the present.
Mass Murders of Rivani Qun Converters after the Qunari War in direct violation of the Llomerryn Accords.
Provoked the Qunari in Kirkwall and lots of people needlessly died.
It also does next to nothing against templar/seeker abuse of power because it either can't or it won't...either is bad.

No system of faith is perfect, I'm not naive. But the above are all actions that the Chantry was actively or passively involved in throughout the two main games. They're almost more responsible for the mage-templar conflict than either side. Why should I be suprised that templars are so paranoid when most of them are religiously indoctrinated drug-addicts (which can impair judgement and rational thought)? As I said in my OP, no wonder mages become desperate enough to use blood magic considering the oppression and violence inherent in the system?
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#880
Taleroth

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

We should really have a honest to goodness templar in the party, not a reject templar like alistar or a anti-magic or pro-chanty member like fenris or sebastion who don't actually have any investment in the mage and templar struggle and are more just out to make their own points.

I want someone who will do for templars what these constant apostate companions do for mages and argue strongly for their side dammit. The entire conflict's portryal has been far too one sided from the very start and it's about time we got to changing it.

I don't think a templar can argue for the Templar position. Because I don't see the debate as Mages vs. Templars. I see it as Mages vs. a Templar's view of Mages. Either way, the argument is about Mages.

Vengeance is how you support the Templar position. Not a Templar who rants all day but can never illustrate the threat.

#881
Philosophaster

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eluvianix wrote...

durasteel wrote...
I have looked for any indication that Val Royeaux was sacked by the elves. I haven't found it. I don't think it happened.


"At this point, the Chantry called for a holy war against the elves that became known as the Exalted March of the Dales. While the elves eventually sacked Val Royeaux and pushed well into human lands, Halamshiral was conquered and the elves were completely crushed by 2:20 Glory."


What's the source for this quote? The WoT doesn't mention that Val Royeaux was ever sacked by the elves; is there a codex entry from the games that states this? Thanks in advance.

Modifié par inconsiderate rick, 19 février 2014 - 10:28 .


#882
Hanako Ikezawa

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Misticsan wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I want someone who will do for templars what these constant apostate companions do for mages and argue strongly for their side dammit. The entire conflict's portryal has been far too one sided from the very start and it's about time we got to changing it.

Like Evangeline in Asunder, I suppose. That would be great. People are talking a lot about the possible addition of Cullen, so maybe that is the idea.

I'd rather have Evangeline than Cullen, personally. Nothing against Cullen, I just like Evangeline more.

#883
Mistic

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Master Warder Z wrote...

Misticsan wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I want someone who will do for templars what these constant apostate companions do for mages and argue strongly for their side dammit. The entire conflict's portryal has been far too one sided from the very start and it's about time we got to changing it.

Like Evangeline in Asunder, I suppose. That would be great. People are talking a lot about the possible addition of Cullen, so maybe that is the idea.

Erm...I'd not consider her a templar by this point.

Well, we don't have many named templars to choose from that aren't potentially dead. Some people even tend to forget that Lambert was actually Lord Seeker, not a templar, and that he only took control of the tower in Asunder because of an exceptional situation. In fact, my main complaint about Lambert is not his ideas about mages, but his ideas about jurisdiction!

Master Warder Z wrote...

.__. And her views were too soft
for my tastes to begin with; Not to mention taking your charge into
your bed just complicates and muddles perspective anyway.

That makes everything more interesting ;) But no, actually I think we'll see Evangeline and Rhys as NPCs, nothing more (and only in the case they appear).

Modifié par Misticsan, 19 février 2014 - 10:30 .


#884
Hanako Ikezawa

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Misticsan wrote...
In my opinion, it was DAII the game which unbalanced the presentation of this problem. Let's see what happens in DA:I. At least not every mage companion will be an apostate (Vivienne is a Circle mage).

Well, technically every mage is an apostate now since the Circles broke away from the Chantry.

#885
Mistic

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LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Misticsan wrote...
In my opinion, it was DAII the game which unbalanced the presentation of this problem. Let's see what happens in DA:I. At least not every mage companion will be an apostate (Vivienne is a Circle mage).

Well, technically every mage is an apostate now since the Circles broke away from the Chantry.

True. Maybe I should specify "mages who before the war wouldn't have been considered apostates".

Oh, and does that make every templar a heathen now?

Modifié par Misticsan, 19 février 2014 - 10:33 .


#886
Hanako Ikezawa

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Misticsan wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Misticsan wrote...
In my opinion, it was DAII the game which unbalanced the presentation of this problem. Let's see what happens in DA:I. At least not every mage companion will be an apostate (Vivienne is a Circle mage).

Well, technically every mage is an apostate now since the Circles broke away from the Chantry.

True. Maybe I should specify "mages who before the war wouldn't have been considered apostates".

Oh, and does that make every templar a heathen now?

Pro-Circle mage works as well and is shorter.

Well, every Templar and Seeker that left the Chantry perhaps, since there are some who stayed with the Divine like Cassandra and Leliana, though if they still believe in the Andrastian faith then probably they are not consider heathens. 

#887
durasteel

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Master Warder Z wrote...
Same Trite Pro Mage BS eh?

Abductions, Labotomized, Pogrom 

Honestly even if i wasn't a stouch defender of the circle system, Templars, Seekers and the need to have Mages contained.

I'd see the bias here, One sided prospective, You see a negative and i see a system that the kept the contient if not the world relatively free of mage oppression for more then a thousand years.


What else would you call it when a mage is taken by force by the Templars? It is an abduction. People are routinely abducted and rendered to a domestic court, and that is considered essential for justice. 

The Rite of Tranquility is a magical lobotomy. It's not a high colonic irrigation and a pretty little daisy tattooed on your bikini line, it is a brand on your forehead made by the magic that severs the connection in your brain to emotion, desire, and dreams. It's meant to sound horrific. If you want to defend the practice, then defend it for what it is, don't make it out to be something pleasant.

A pogrom is an attack, condoned by authorities, against persons and property of a minority. That seems to pretty well describe the Templar's treatment of anyone born with mojo. Another definition is an organized massacre of helpless people, which seems to describe the Rite of Annulment pretty accurately, considering the ability ot Templar and Seekers to nullify magic used against them.

Your world free of mage oppression is a matter of perpective. That phrase could mean oppression by mages, as you intended, or it could mean oppression of mages. I am not, as you seem convinced, "pro-mage." I'm not anti-mage, either, so I have no problem categorizing rounding them up and killing or caging them for the way they were born as oppression. It is what it is, man.

#888
Master Warder Z_

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ShadowLordXII wrote...

durasteel wrote...

Returning to the issue raised in the OP, I've noticed that a great many Codex entries are written from the perspective of Brother Genitivi, who is understandably a Chantry apologist, sympathetic to the Templar Order and the Circle system.

I think this is more than offset by the fact that the player character always has an apostate companion, sometimes more than one. They are vigorous critics of the circle and advocates of mage freedom. By contrast, companions who are in a position to defend the Circle, like Wynn, tend to give a more balanced perspective instead of a full-bore defense of the system.

The companions who do advocate in favor of the Chantry's mage pogrom, like Sebastian and Fenris, tend to be annoying for other reasons. Of course the big revelation in the Fenris story is that he actually volunteered for the lyrium tattoos that he's been whining about, and that before his memory loss he wasn't nearly so anti-mage.

I don't think there is much question, at least in my mind, as to whether the presentation of the conflict is even. There are, however, interesting questions on the other side of that inquiry. Can the presentation be even? Should it be?

You will presumably always have perspectives of those who were abducted from their prior lives and interred in a Circle of Magi concentration camp, subjected to Templar control, knew people lobotomised into Tranquility, and threatened with death if they stepped out of line or even tried to see their families. How do you balance that?

You can make logical arguments about safety all you want to, but that is a poor counter to a personal sob story. The worst case scenario that a player character will hear regarding mage badness anywhere outside of Tevinter is a situation that has either already been resolved or one that the PC will personally resolve in fairly short order, while the Templars' pogrom against the mages is ongoing with no end in sight.

Not everything can be even.


Maybe it isn't supposed to be even, that is a good point.

I'm fairly an anti-chantry player myself considering all of the shady or outright evil stuff that the Chantry does:

On one hand, they preach that blood magic is evil, but they use it to track mages through phylacteries.
They say that magic is not meant to dominate others, but the templars are honestly a personal army of lyrium-addled magic knights who do exactly that.
The Chantry knowingly addicts it's templars to lyrium in order to control them. It more or less turns a blind eye to elven oppression and outright encourages it.
They've been shown to have a heavy slant towards Orlais in the past and may still do in the present.
Mass Murders of Rivani Qun Converters after the Qunari War in direct violation of the Llomerryn Accords.
Provoked the Qunari in Kirkwall and lots of people needlessly died.
It also does next to nothing against templar/seeker abuse of power because it either can't or it won't...either is bad.

No system of faith is perfect, I'm not naive. But the above are all actions that the Chantry was actively or passively involved in throughout the two main games. They're almost more responsible for the mage-templar conflict than either side. Why should I be suprised that templars are so paranoid when most of them are religiously indoctrinated drug-addicts (which can impair judgement and rational thought)? As I said in my OP, no wonder mages become desperate enough to use blood magic considering the oppression and violence inherent in the system?


The Qunari are an enemy of all Thedas and therefore every one must work against them if there is to ever be a time with out their filthy presence in the world. They are directly behind the Darkspawn in so far as threat level, The Mages a distant third. I see no corruption nor anything wrong with working against them, Inspiring people to actually take action against them. You can agrue what Petrice did was either wrong or right according to perspective but considering the Qunari are "Neutral Hostiles" at the very best. I see nothing wrong with engaging them wherever they appear even if they supposedly come under a banner of peace.

Murdering their converts after they refused to resettle and accept the provisions that ended the war? Don't even view it as Murder, Its executing war criminals. Traitors and folk who should have more sense then to buy into that tainted dogma.

To the point of blood magic?

Desperate enough? Laughable considering more then half the Blood Mages you meet are "lol evil" and the other half are generally too stupid or naive to realize what they are doing will eventually corrupt them into a demon summoning wisp.

To me? That's the end of it the corruption that exists within the Chantry and it does exist but there is no Blood Magic employed by the Chantry, what they do is passive scying which requires no inherrent magical talent to do in the presence of lyrium, therefore you can agrue it isn't even true magic. Its much a magical ability as a lyrium bomb in my opinion. And the usage of Mage blood to keep them contained and locate them is a needed evil, which to me again doesn't qualify as blood magic.

And i despise the notion of viewing the Templars in the light of religious Zealots who are addicted to narcotics; Lyrium has degenerative effects upon the person consuming it regularly, this is true for mage and templar both. And yet i hear no one claiming mages are smoking crack and going insane from it. What their personal faith is and how strong they carry it doesn't deterimine their duties, Note i said it doesn't determine their duties but i am well aware of the codex that made it out that they seek those with out flawless moral centers and those of strong faith.

Makes sense, if you must behead a mage child because it is evident she will become posssed you cannot hesistate in that moment. Point of the matter is the Templars aren't a simple order and they contain a mixture of personalities, and mindsets that is clear enough to me.

You have Zealots, Extremists, Just as you have them among the Mages, But to even indictate that is the majority? That to me is just personal bias.

#889
Taleroth

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LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Misticsan wrote...
In my opinion, it was DAII the game which unbalanced the presentation of this problem. Let's see what happens in DA:I. At least not every mage companion will be an apostate (Vivienne is a Circle mage).

Well, technically every mage is an apostate now since the Circles broke away from the Chantry.

Pfft. Any mage following the Inquisitor around is defacto in good standing. Because the Inquisitor is THE LAW!

#890
Hanako Ikezawa

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Taleroth wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Misticsan wrote...
In my opinion, it was DAII the game which unbalanced the presentation of this problem. Let's see what happens in DA:I. At least not every mage companion will be an apostate (Vivienne is a Circle mage).

Well, technically every mage is an apostate now since the Circles broke away from the Chantry.

Pfft. Any mage following the Inquisitor around is defacto in good standing. Because the Inquisitor is THE LAW!

Oh, I'm not saying they are bad. Quite the opposite in a lot of cases. But by Thedasian definition, all mages are now apostates because there are no more Circles and thus all are not overseen by them.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 19 février 2014 - 10:39 .


#891
Taleroth

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LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Oh, I'm not saying they are bad. Quite the opposite in a lot of cases. But by Thedasian definition, all mages are now apostates because there are no more Circles and thus all are not overseen by them.

That's the tradition, not the definition. Any mage under the supervision of the Chantry or its agents still would not be an apostate, tower or no tower.

And I expect that kind of authority to be in the Inquisition's domain.

#892
Master Warder Z_

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durasteel wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
Same Trite Pro Mage BS eh?

Abductions, Labotomized, Pogrom 

Honestly even if i wasn't a stouch defender of the circle system, Templars, Seekers and the need to have Mages contained.

I'd see the bias here, One sided prospective, You see a negative and i see a system that the kept the contient if not the world relatively free of mage oppression for more then a thousand years.


What else would you call it when a mage is taken by force by the Templars? It is an abduction. People are routinely abducted and rendered to a domestic court, and that is considered essential for justice. 

The Rite of Tranquility is a magical lobotomy. It's not a high colonic irrigation and a pretty little daisy tattooed on your bikini line, it is a brand on your forehead made by the magic that severs the connection in your brain to emotion, desire, and dreams. It's meant to sound horrific. If you want to defend the practice, then defend it for what it is, don't make it out to be something pleasant.

A pogrom is an attack, condoned by authorities, against persons and property of a minority. That seems to pretty well describe the Templar's treatment of anyone born with mojo. Another definition is an organized massacre of helpless people, which seems to describe the Rite of Annulment pretty accurately, considering the ability ot Templar and Seekers to nullify magic used against them.

Your world free of mage oppression is a matter of perpective. That phrase could mean oppression by mages, as you intended, or it could mean oppression of mages. I am not, as you seem convinced, "pro-mage." I'm not anti-mage, either, so I have no problem categorizing rounding them up and killing or caging them for the way they were born as oppression. It is what it is, man.


Its a pro Mage stance before it indicates that it is done entirely with out merit regardless of the templar and thedosian reasoning. Comparing to Modern standpoints its an obvious shortcoming, comparing it to Feudalistic settings however makes it stand out as much as a haybail on a cow farm.

Abduction? The Work fits, as does lawful duty, legal seizure and etc.

Comparing this to modern indicatives would be as spit in the wind, Comparing the rights given to agents of the Chantry in so far as taking in Mages by possible force and against their will sounds similar to me to pontential terrorist suspects, criminals and many other "abductions" allowed not only by modern law but feudalistic law as well.

Oppression? Laughable.

It's containment, its doing what must be done to ensure the stability and safety of every one involved, If Mages were routinely "murdered" in the Anullments as you so patently indicate then how is that in more then a thousand years the Rite has been preformed less then twenty times? 

You figure what with all the Pogroms, Mage Hatred and Zealous Chantry authority over Mage life, They would use any and all excuse to cut them down yes? 

And the Rite removes emotion Yes, it cuts off the mage from the Fade Yes. It does however not impair free will, Cognition or entail death if the templar admistaring it "slips" Comparing it to that Medical practice on the basis that they are in evidence the samething is laughable to me. You can call it what you want, I call it something that preserves life and makes life continue in a useful fashion rather then just senselessly ending it.

It to me is a postive, If it did as the Mages said and merely turned their brain into Jello and they were then forced into Labor by the chantry as in Qunari lands, I would see the practice as Barbaric.

But it isn't the same and it shouldn't be treated the same.

#893
durasteel

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Darth Brotarian wrote...
... Mages like finn or bethany who could keep in contact with their families and weren't harrased by templars. ...


Bethany was harrased by Templars--they came to her house and drug her off into captivity. While she is allowed to send the occasional letter, her corespondence is monitored if I remember. Hawke cannot visit her and sees her only rarely (with the DLC campaigns being an exception.) She is a prisoner.

That said, she does seem to prefer it to living as a fugitive. I think she'd like living free a lot better, but I never had the chance to ask her.

#894
Cainhurst Crow

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durasteel wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
... Mages like finn or bethany who could keep in contact with their families and weren't harrased by templars. ...


Bethany was harrased by Templars--they came to her house and drug her off into captivity. While she is allowed to send the occasional letter, her corespondence is monitored if I remember. Hawke cannot visit her and sees her only rarely (with the DLC campaigns being an exception.) She is a prisoner.

That said, she does seem to prefer it to living as a fugitive. I think she'd like living free a lot better, but I never had the chance to ask her.


And finn?

#895
durasteel

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Master Warder Z wrote...
I was hoping we would get either Lambert or some kind of Seeker (Besides Cass) in DAI but given that isn't going to happen...well i fear we will be with out their perspective for quite a while.

Perhaps in the future eh?


What do you have against Cassandra?

#896
durasteel

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

And finn?


I have no idea, I barely remember him at all. I just recall him reminding me of a male version of Hermione.

#897
Cainhurst Crow

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Also people here act like phylacteries are equivalent to blood magic when they are on near opposite sides of the spectrum. So the chantry found a way to track down escaped mages. Well guess what kids? Tracking someone down through the use of a device isn't evil, it's called a global positioning system, and it's in your phone right now as we speak. Time to go burn down the immoral government I guess, since they forbid people from spying on each other but can spy on other citizens if they get a warrant, oh the scandal. We should smash every ankle braclet that exists in every country and let freedom reign, amirite?

Trying to compare that, to magic that causes excruciating pain and mind control is so laughably absurd as to be parody worthy.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 19 février 2014 - 10:56 .


#898
Master Warder Z_

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durasteel wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
I was hoping we would get either Lambert or some kind of Seeker (Besides Cass) in DAI but given that isn't going to happen...well i fear we will be with out their perspective for quite a while.

Perhaps in the future eh?


What do you have against Cassandra?


Nothing personally.

It's just she doesn't draw her sword for Lambert's faction and is still loyal to the Divine.

Therefore its quite safe to assume that she follows a moderate to less servere stance when it comes to Circles, Mages and etc.

Although i could be mistaken but its also same to assume the great majority of the Old Guard Hardliners joined Lambert and those that were left withthe Chantry afterwards likely are the "Moderates".

#899
Master Warder Z_

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durasteel wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
... Mages like finn or bethany who could keep in contact with their families and weren't harrased by templars. ...


Bethany was harrased by Templars--they came to her house and drug her off into captivity. While she is allowed to send the occasional letter, her corespondence is monitored if I remember. Hawke cannot visit her and sees her only rarely (with the DLC campaigns being an exception.) She is a prisoner.

That said, she does seem to prefer it to living as a fugitive. I think she'd like living free a lot better, but I never had the chance to ask her.


If you count being free as running from hovel to hovel every few years.

Given how she speaks of her early life i doubt she approves of being "free" either.

#900
durasteel

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Master Warder Z wrote...
...
And i despise the notion of viewing the Templars in the light of religious Zealots who are addicted to narcotics; Lyrium has degenerative effects upon the person consuming it regularly, this is true for mage and templar both. And yet i hear no one claiming mages are smoking crack and going insane from it. What their personal faith is and how strong they carry it doesn't deterimine their duties, Note i said it doesn't determine their duties but i am well aware of the codex that made it out that they seek those with out flawless moral centers and those of strong faith.
...


We've never seen a mage in the game whose noodle was cooked from lyrium use, but the DAverse is full of Templars and ex-Templars who are recovering addicts or who have a lot of bulbs burned out on the tree from it.