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[durasteel]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Seige of Val Royaux happened before the Exalted March. The Chantry was uninvolved in the war until after the sacking of Montsimmard, and the Exalted March didn't enter into effect until during or after the sacking of Val Royaux.

That's not how I read it. It seems to me that after the Divine called for the Exalted March, the elves "eventually" got around to sacking Val Reyeaux. According to the timeline, the war went on for 10 years... they didn't need to hurry.

[EmperorSahlertz]

durasteel wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Seige of Val Royaux happened before the Exalted March. The Chantry was uninvolved in the war until after the sacking of Montsimmard, and the Exalted March didn't enter into effect until during or after the sacking of Val Royaux.

That's not how I read it. It seems to me that after the Divine called for the Exalted March, the elves "eventually" got around to sacking Val Reyeaux. According to the timeline, the war went on for 10 years... they didn't need to hurry.

According to the timeline, the Divine didn't call the Exalted March until after the Elves had begun to march on Val Royaux.

[eyezonlyii]

I was musing about a different solution when I stumbled upon a fanfic that had a pretty good alternative to the Circles. Of course there was the obligatory slash pairing, but the end result was very well thought out.

[dragonflight288]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

 @Warden I was reading your post while listening to A kickass OCD remix of Those Chosen By the Planet. I think I found the theme song for your Inquisitor. 
 

Also, your post nicely sums up why we need more of a balanced view of Templars and Mages.  I doubt it was your intent, but it still works. 

Oh no i agree whole heartedly we need far more moderates in both camps.

I just don't count myself among Moderates because the situation has gone beyond Moderation; Not to say it cannot return to that position its just that something will have to occur to force that outcome.

Well Master Warden Z, you have my full confidence that you'll do your level best. Now you can be assured that you can also have full confidence that I'll be just as moderate as you on the mage side in at least one of my playthroughs. 

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...

durasteel wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
...
And i despise the notion of viewing the Templars in the light of religious Zealots who are addicted to narcotics; Lyrium has degenerative effects upon the person consuming it regularly, this is true for mage and templar both. And yet i hear no one claiming mages are smoking crack and going insane from it. What their personal faith is and how strong they carry it doesn't deterimine their duties, Note i said it doesn't determine their duties but i am well aware of the codex that made it out that they seek those with out flawless moral centers and those of strong faith.
...

We've never seen a mage in the game whose noodle was cooked from lyrium use, but the DAverse is full of Templars and ex-Templars who are recovering addicts or who have a lot of bulbs burned out on the tree from it.

The Ancient Magisters were so horribly warped from overuse of it; Apparently they resembled Monsters more then people.

.-. No perhaps it doesn't get to that extent these days but given how many nutter mages are out there you cannot help but wonder if its from overusage of lyrium.

Source please.

[durasteel]

Master Warder Z wrote...
I just don't count myself among Moderates because the situation has gone beyond Moderation; Not to say it cannot return to that position its just that something will have to occur to force that outcome.

I have "something" in mind. Get Anders' Kirkwall bomb recipe, blow up the rest of the Chantries, put Morrigan's kid on the throne of Orlais, give the ignorant peasants something more dangerous than mages to fear.

Me.

Modifié par durasteel, 20 février 2014 - 02:13 .

[Master Warder Z_]

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

durasteel wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
...
And i despise the notion of viewing the Templars in the light of religious Zealots who are addicted to narcotics; Lyrium has degenerative effects upon the person consuming it regularly, this is true for mage and templar both. And yet i hear no one claiming mages are smoking crack and going insane from it. What their personal faith is and how strong they carry it doesn't deterimine their duties, Note i said it doesn't determine their duties but i am well aware of the codex that made it out that they seek those with out flawless moral centers and those of strong faith.
...

We've never seen a mage in the game whose noodle was cooked from lyrium use, but the DAverse is full of Templars and ex-Templars who are recovering addicts or who have a lot of bulbs burned out on the tree from it.

The Ancient Magisters were so horribly warped from overuse of it; Apparently they resembled Monsters more then people.

.-. No perhaps it doesn't get to that extent these days but given how many nutter mages are out there you cannot help but wonder if its from overusage of lyrium.

Source please.

DAO codex on the Magisters.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Magister

It's mentioned on the page in the "triva" section.

[dragonflight288]

durasteel wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
I just don't count myself among Moderates because the situation has gone beyond Moderation; Not to say it cannot return to that position its just that something will have to occur to force that outcome.

I have "something" in mind. Get Anders' Kirkwall bomb recipe, blow up the rest of the Chantries, put Morrigan's kid on the throne of Orlais, give the ignorant peasants something more dangerous than mages to fear.

Me.

Or have a Renegade Commander Shepard crash land on Thedas and he conquers everyone using biotics.  

On a more serious note, I do think that mages and templars have been portrayed unevenly. Especially since the devs outright admitted that they overdid it in DA2 for both sides, and also admitted that they portrayed mages negatively in order to get more gamers to side with templars.

Mission accomplished.

[Anvos]

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

durasteel wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
...
And i despise the notion of viewing the Templars in the light of religious Zealots who are addicted to narcotics; Lyrium has degenerative effects upon the person consuming it regularly, this is true for mage and templar both. And yet i hear no one claiming mages are smoking crack and going insane from it. What their personal faith is and how strong they carry it doesn't deterimine their duties, Note i said it doesn't determine their duties but i am well aware of the codex that made it out that they seek those with out flawless moral centers and those of strong faith.
...

We've never seen a mage in the game whose noodle was cooked from lyrium use, but the DAverse is full of Templars and ex-Templars who are recovering addicts or who have a lot of bulbs burned out on the tree from it.

The Ancient Magisters were so horribly warped from overuse of it; Apparently they resembled Monsters more then people.

.-. No perhaps it doesn't get to that extent these days but given how many nutter mages are out there you cannot help but wonder if its from overusage of lyrium.

Source please.

DAO codex on the Magisters.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Magister

It's mentioned on the page in the "triva" section.

I've always been skeptical of this codex, since if it was true you'd think you'd see signs of these mutations at least in senior mages and first enchanters.

[TEWR]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Was Petrice even corrupt as much as merely criminal in her zealotry against the Qunari? Was she out to enrich herself, her favored constituencies, or gain power?

Her zealotry against the Qunari was criminal, no doubts about that, but given her opponent she has some grounds to view them as a social abomination and problem. She easily falls into the 'considers themselves acting for the greater good' sort of moral failure, but that's a different sort of corruption than the Middle Ages-esque 'Church seeks power for its own sake' corruption.

I suppose it's a bit of different strokes for different blokes. I think that, as she was clearly sacrificing anyone and everyone in her quest against the Qunari, which flies in the face of Chantry beliefs (they exist, if not in action then certainly in name, to help the people), she was certainly corrupt as well as criminal.

Regardless, I haven't seen much Middle Ages-esque "Church trying to monopolize and consolidate power" corruption either way.

[The Baconer]

Anvos wrote...
I've always been skeptical of this codex, since if it was true you'd think you'd see signs of these mutations at least in senior mages and first enchanters.

Not necessarily. The Circles aren't about pushing the boundaries of magic, nor is it a constant blood-feud of deciding who's the strongest mage, so I don't see why they would be consuming large amounts of Lyrium. That **** is also pretty expensive so I don't see the Chantry just doling it out for their personal use.

Modifié par The Baconer, 20 février 2014 - 02:52 .

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...


DAO codex on the Magisters.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Magister

It's mentioned on the page in the "triva" section.

Ok...Your right... But I see another intersting statement in the sodex on Lyrium...
Lyrium has its costs, however. Prolonged use becomes addictive, the cravings unbearable. Over time, templars grow disoriented, incapable of distinguishing memory from present, or dream from waking. They frequently become paranoid as their worst memories and nightmares haunt their waking hours. Mages have additionally been known to suffer physical mutation: The magister lords of the Tevinter Imperium were widely reputed to have been so affected by their years of lyrium use that they could not be recognized by their own kin, nor even as creatures that had once been human.

Now we don't see the mutations in the circle. It's clear they control it's injestion...But the tempars have become more and more Paranoid....

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Martyr1777 wrote...

No way can I say Rhys was an extremeist. He wasn't always as moderate as he was at the end there obviously, but he was no where near the level of Fiona or Adrian.

He was upset about things but still collected, I mean the worst he ever did was be a little bit out spoken a couple times like during Wynne's speach. It even says he was never really comfortable with any of the Libertarians aside from Adrian, and when he saw that side of the extremism it even drove him away from her, who could arguably have been called his best friend at the start.

Rhys was by no means ever an extremist, just a moderate that spoke out a couple times and was unhappy with the situation.

Extremists can't be collected? I disagree. 

[leaguer of one]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

No way can I say Rhys was an extremeist. He wasn't always as moderate as he was at the end there obviously, but he was no where near the level of Fiona or Adrian.

He was upset about things but still collected, I mean the worst he ever did was be a little bit out spoken a couple times like during Wynne's speach. It even says he was never really comfortable with any of the Libertarians aside from Adrian, and when he saw that side of the extremism it even drove him away from her, who could arguably have been called his best friend at the start.

Rhys was by no means ever an extremist, just a moderate that spoke out a couple times and was unhappy with the situation.

Extremists can't be collected? I disagree. 

Extremist normally means they do extreme action to get their point across...Like Ander's.

[durasteel]

The Baconer wrote...
Not necessarily. The Circles aren't about pushing the boundaries of magic, nor is it a constant blood-feud of deciding who's the strongest mage, so I don't see why they would be consuming large amounts of Lyrium. That **** is also pretty expensive so I don't see the Chantry just doling it out for their personal use.

I get the idea that the day-to-day routine of a Circle mage involved a lot of reading theory, maybe a little practice followed by some tea and a bit of a lie down, then roaming the halls after diner looking for someone to shag before bed time.

By contrast, the Magister's day involved reinforcing his own wards, probing the wards of his rivals, maybe summoning a demon to posess his toaster to efficiently generate part of his complete breakfast, and what the hell, build a new tower with magic to impress his girlfriend.

[leaguer of one]

durasteel wrote...

 and what the hell, build a new tower with magic to impress his girlfriend.

...The truelly ruthless ones make them out of their slaves.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

leaguer of one wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

No way can I say Rhys was an extremeist. He wasn't always as moderate as he was at the end there obviously, but he was no where near the level of Fiona or Adrian.

He was upset about things but still collected, I mean the worst he ever did was be a little bit out spoken a couple times like during Wynne's speach. It even says he was never really comfortable with any of the Libertarians aside from Adrian, and when he saw that side of the extremism it even drove him away from her, who could arguably have been called his best friend at the start.

Rhys was by no means ever an extremist, just a moderate that spoke out a couple times and was unhappy with the situation.

Extremists can't be collected? I disagree. 

Extremist normally means they do extreme action to get their point across...Like Ander's.

Anders was also collected. He was in full control of his faculties and was composed as he set those bombs. 

[leaguer of one]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

No way can I say Rhys was an extremeist. He wasn't always as moderate as he was at the end there obviously, but he was no where near the level of Fiona or Adrian.

He was upset about things but still collected, I mean the worst he ever did was be a little bit out spoken a couple times like during Wynne's speach. It even says he was never really comfortable with any of the Libertarians aside from Adrian, and when he saw that side of the extremism it even drove him away from her, who could arguably have been called his best friend at the start.

Rhys was by no means ever an extremist, just a moderate that spoke out a couple times and was unhappy with the situation.

Extremists can't be collected? I disagree. 

Extremist normally means they do extreme action to get their point across...Like Ander's.

Anders was also collected. He was in full control of his faculties and was composed as he set those bombs. 

Who said extremist are not collected? Sure,Rhys was collected but he still was not an extremist....Neather was Fiona. She was just voical.

[durasteel]

Some consider a mage that looks out the window and wishes he could go outside for a walk to be an extremist.

Modifié par durasteel, 20 février 2014 - 03:26 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

leaguer of one wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

No way can I say Rhys was an extremeist. He wasn't always as moderate as he was at the end there obviously, but he was no where near the level of Fiona or Adrian.

He was upset about things but still collected, I mean the worst he ever did was be a little bit out spoken a couple times like during Wynne's speach. It even says he was never really comfortable with any of the Libertarians aside from Adrian, and when he saw that side of the extremism it even drove him away from her, who could arguably have been called his best friend at the start.

Rhys was by no means ever an extremist, just a moderate that spoke out a couple times and was unhappy with the situation.

Extremists can't be collected? I disagree. 

Extremist normally means they do extreme action to get their point across...Like Ander's.

Anders was also collected. He was in full control of his faculties and was composed as he set those bombs. 

Who said extremist are not collected? Sure,Rhys was collected but he still was not an extremist....Neather was Fiona. She was just voical.

That's what I was asking when you brought up Anders. 
Yeah, extremists can be very collected. To show the other side, an argument can easily be made that Lambert is also an extremist, yet he has been shown to be very collected.

[leaguer of one]

durasteel wrote...

Some consider a mage that looks out the window and wishes he could go for a walk to be an extremist.

Those happen to be lyrium addled Templars.

[dragonflight288]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

No way can I say Rhys was an extremeist. He wasn't always as moderate as he was at the end there obviously, but he was no where near the level of Fiona or Adrian.

He was upset about things but still collected, I mean the worst he ever did was be a little bit out spoken a couple times like during Wynne's speach. It even says he was never really comfortable with any of the Libertarians aside from Adrian, and when he saw that side of the extremism it even drove him away from her, who could arguably have been called his best friend at the start.

Rhys was by no means ever an extremist, just a moderate that spoke out a couple times and was unhappy with the situation.

Extremists can't be collected? I disagree. 

Extremist normally means they do extreme action to get their point across...Like Ander's.

Anders was also collected. He was in full control of his faculties and was composed as he set those bombs. 

On the friendship path. If you rival him, he loses control more and more frequently, suffers memory loss when Justice takes control, and nearly loses all sanity as he struggles against Justice, whereas on the friendship path he accepts justice, works in tandem with him, and takes full responisibility for his own actions. 

[dragonflight288]

leaguer of one wrote...

durasteel wrote...

Some consider a mage that looks out the window and wishes he could go for a walk to be an extremist.

Those happen to be lyrium addled Templars.

Yup. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Misticsan wrote...
Like Evangeline in Asunder, I suppose. That would be great. People are talking a lot about the possible addition of Cullen, so maybe that is the idea.

Erm...I'd not consider her a templar by this point.

.__. And her views were too soft for my tastes to begin with; Not to mention taking your charge into your bed just complicates and muddles perspective anyway.

She's not a templar anymore. Actually, I'd say she's an idiot that isn't thinking straight.

She defended Cole. COLE. Ya know, the mage-murdering demon-thingy?

That is a complete and total double  faliure in her role as templar. Not only does she fail in containing a dangerous fade entity, she fails in protecting the mages he killed.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ShadowLordXII wrote...
I'm fairly an anti-chantry player myself considering all of the shady or outright evil stuff that the Chantry does:

On one hand, they preach that blood magic is evil, but they use it to track mages through phylacteries.

Phylacteries are "kinda" blood magic. It is a grey area and it's only used for tracking.

They say that magic is not meant to dominate others, but the templars are honestly a personal army of lyrium-addled magic knights who do exactly that.
The Chantry knowingly addicts it's templars to lyrium in order to control them. It more or less turns a blind eye to elven oppression and outright encourages it.

Teh tempalrs are a police force and saying "lyrium-addled" is a gorss over-generalization and a fallacy to boot. The vast majority of tempalrs we meet are in full control of their faculties.

Also, the Chantry doesn't addict tempalrs to lyrium to control them. You are now assigning intent wihout any evidence.
Lyrium is NECESSARY to get templar powers and temaplrs are aware.
The addiction is a side-effect that cannot be removed, so the Chantry really can't do anythig about it. They can't make lyrium "safe".

Mass Murders of Rivani Qun Converters after the Qunari War in direct violation of the Llomerryn Accords.

Done by an army, led by it's own generals. I highly doubt it the order came from the Chantry, given that the Chantry does NOT control the armies in an Exhalted March.

Provoked the Qunari in Kirkwall and lots of people needlessly died.

The qunari were provoking everyone else by refusing to go away and generally being impossible to talk to.
Also the Arishok was a suicidal idiot, so I fai lto see why you blame the Chantry for it.

It also does next to nothing against templar/seeker abuse of power because it either can't or it won't...either is bad.

Incorrect. You can say that it didn't do enough and it didn't do it fast enough. But you can't say it does nothing.
Religious institutions are historicly slow to act and change, but that doesnt' mean they don't.
After all, waht was the purpose of the gathering in WhiteSpire? For mages to discuss changes to the circle and propose them to the Divine.