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[Lotion Soronarr]

durasteel wrote...

We've never seen a mage in the game whose noodle was cooked from lyrium use, but the DAverse is full of Templars and ex-Templars who are recovering addicts or who have a lot of bulbs burned out on the tree from it.

"Full"?

I recall maybe 2-3.

The Tempalr prisoner in DA:O - who was suffering from withdrawal, but would probably be OK after that.
The old Templar in Denerim who speaks in verses - who refused retirement and was a heavy lyrium user.

Who else?

The Ex-templar in DA2 was not addled.
Carrol was a strange fellow, but so are most of your party members, he doesn't seem brain-addled either.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Although this has probably been addressed, I don't know I have two more pages to read to be fully caught up, I thought I'd comment on this comment.

Wouldn't EVERY mage be part of the rebellion merely as a matter of technicality now because the Nevarran Accord was declared void by Lambert in Asunder? The Nevarran Accord granted mages their rights and a place to live, even if most of those rights had been taken away in the 700 years since the Circle was founded, like a council of senior enchanters being the ones in charge of governing the circles and the templars weren't to be involved but merely watch and advice.

Without that accord, every single mage technically is worthy of death because there are no Circle's anymore. The circle's declared their independence, the Chantry agreed, the templars and Seekers left the Chantry and declared the Nevarran Accord void, and all bets are off. 

IIRC, Lambert specifcly wanted to re-capture all mages and stick them back into the Circles, not kill them.

Which is a good thing, since the "kill all mages on sight" does not appear to be the templar stance. Not sure about the Red Templars.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Martyr1777 wrote...
I'm honestly curious to see how this plays out though, because I can't see any real sensble way Bioware can write up a story once the conflict is resolved that works. I mean everyones looked down the road of the Circles, while it worked for a while they all know it would end in the same result at some point if they go back to it. But then there isn't really another route to go either that would be any more effective in my mind.

I don't really see tht as an argument against them. It will fail at SOME POINT?
Well, everything does at some point.
You'll die one day - why live?
Anything you build will crumble eventually - why build anything?

The Circle system worked for a very long time - why NOT go back to it?
Maybe it will fail again in 1000 years, maybe it will fail in 100, maybe it will last 10000. No way to tell.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mass Murders of Rivani Qun Converters after the Qunari War in direct violation of the Llomerryn Accords.

Done by an army, led by it's own generals. I highly doubt it the order came from the Chantry, given that the Chantry does NOT control the armies in an Exhalted March.

Provoked the Qunari in Kirkwall and lots of people needlessly died.

The qunari were provoking everyone else by refusing to go away and generally being impossible to talk to.
Also the Arishok was a suicidal idiot, so I fai lto see why you blame the Chantry for it.

1) Really? I always understood it as akin to real world Crusades, which were church-led wars.

2) Can't really blame them for following their doctrine. 

[Hellion Rex]

Kill all the mages. Long live the Qun. That is all.

[The Elder King]

eluvianix wrote...

Kill all the mages. Long live the Qun. That is all.

You're a traitor of your own race. I'll use my blood magic to make you kill your loved ones. The Imperium will return to reign all over Thedas, and the qunari will be our new labour force.
For Dumat!

Modifié par hhh89, 20 février 2014 - 09:55 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

Kill all the mages. Long live the Qun. That is all.

You really are a bit bipolar. You know that? 

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Kill all the mages. Long live the Qun. That is all.

You really are a bit bipolar. You know that? 

The wait for these thrice-damned dev diaries is driving me nuts. Forgive me if I indulge in a bit of mischief.
:innocent:

[Mistic]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, the Chantry doesn't addict tempalrs to lyrium to control them. You are now assigning intent wihout any evidence.
Lyrium is NECESSARY to get templar powers and temaplrs are aware.
The addiction is a side-effect that cannot be removed, so the Chantry really can't do anythig about it. They can't make lyrium "safe".

I thought that Alistair said in DA:O that lyrium wasn't really necessary, and that's why he could teach you the templar specialization.

The conversation is here:

“The Chantry keeps a close reign on its templars. We are given lyrium to help develop our magical talents, you see... which means you become addicted. And since the Chantry controls the lyrium trade with the dwarves... Well, I'm sure you can put two and two together."
“That's horrible! I can't believe they would do that!”
“Well, they do it. And they feel perfectly justified. You don't need lyrium in order to learn the templar talents. Lyrium just makes templar talents more effective. Or so I was told. Maybe it doesn't even do that.”

If you wonder about how come the rest of the templars don't know that, Alistair points out that the Chantry doesn't usually let its templars get away, and that he's a lucky exception.

eluvianix wrote...

Kill all the mages. Long live the Qun. That is all.

The Qun wastes nothing, remember that

Modifié par Misticsan, 20 février 2014 - 10:08 .

[Hellion Rex]

hhh89 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Kill all the mages. Long live the Qun. That is all.

You're a traitor of your own race. I'll use my blood magic to make you kill your loved ones. The Imperium will return to reign all over Thedas, and the qunari will be our new labour force.
For Dumat!

Submit to the Qun, sarebaas.

[Hellion Rex]

Misticsan wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, the Chantry doesn't addict tempalrs to lyrium to control them. You are now assigning intent wihout any evidence.
Lyrium is NECESSARY to get templar powers and temaplrs are aware.
The addiction is a side-effect that cannot be removed, so the Chantry really can't do anythig about it. They can't make lyrium "safe".

I thought that Alistair said in DA:O that lyrium wasn't really necessary, and that's why he could teach you the templar specialization.

The conversation is here:

“The Chantry keeps a close reign on
its templars. We are given lyrium to help develop our magical
talents, you see... whcih means you become addicted. And since the
Chantry controls the lyrium trade with the dwarves... Well, I'm sure
you can put two and two together.
“That's horrible! I can't believe
they would do that!”
“Well, they do it. And they feel
perfectly justified. You don't need lyrium in order to learn the
templar talents. Lyrium just makes templar talents more effective. Or
so I was told. Maybe it doesn't even do that.”

We have a Word of Father Gaider retconning that from a while ago. Lyrium is indeed required to allow templar abilities to be active. This retcon came out around the time when the recent comics were released.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Misticsan wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, the Chantry doesn't addict tempalrs to lyrium to control them. You are now assigning intent wihout any evidence.
Lyrium is NECESSARY to get templar powers and temaplrs are aware.
The addiction is a side-effect that cannot be removed, so the Chantry really can't do anythig about it. They can't make lyrium "safe".

I thought that Alistair said in DA:O that lyrium wasn't really necessary, and that's why he could teach you the templar specialization.

The conversation is here:

“The Chantry keeps a close reign on its templars. We are given lyrium to help develop our magical talents, you see... which means you become addicted. And since the Chantry controls the lyrium trade with the dwarves... Well, I'm sure you can put two and two together."
“That's horrible! I can't believe they would do that!”
“Well, they do it. And they feel perfectly justified. You don't need lyrium in order to learn the templar talents. Lyrium just makes templar talents more effective. Or so I was told. Maybe it doesn't even do that.”

1 word retcon now templars need lyrium to use their power...

[Mistic]

eluvianix wrote...

We have a Word of Father Gaider retconning that from a while ago. Lyrium is indeed required to allow templar abilities to be active. This retcon came out around the time when the recent comics were released.

Ah, I didn't know that. So I suppose the "how come the Warden can learn templar talents?" will be put in the same place where "how come no templar in Kirkwall realizes Hawke is a blood mage?" is.

By the way, does anybody have a link? I'd really like to read the explanation.

Modifié par Misticsan, 20 février 2014 - 10:11 .

[The Elder King]

eluvianix wrote...

Submit to the Qun, sarebaas.

Nope. My destiny is to enslave your whole society, and then use your damned qamek on you as retributionB).

[Jaison1986]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ShadowLordXII wrote...
I'm fairly an anti-chantry player myself considering all of the shady or outright evil stuff that the Chantry does:

On one hand, they preach that blood magic is evil, but they use it to track mages through phylacteries.

Phylacteries are "kinda" blood magic. It is a grey area and it's only used for tracking.

They say that magic is not meant to dominate others, but the templars are honestly a personal army of lyrium-addled magic knights who do exactly that.
The Chantry knowingly addicts it's templars to lyrium in order to control them. It more or less turns a blind eye to elven oppression and outright encourages it.

Teh tempalrs are a police force and saying "lyrium-addled" is a gorss over-generalization and a fallacy to boot. The vast majority of tempalrs we meet are in full control of their faculties.

Also, the Chantry doesn't addict tempalrs to lyrium to control them. You are now assigning intent wihout any evidence.
Lyrium is NECESSARY to get templar powers and temaplrs are aware.
The addiction is a side-effect that cannot be removed, so the Chantry really can't do anythig about it. They can't make lyrium "safe".

Mass Murders of Rivani Qun Converters after the Qunari War in direct violation of the Llomerryn Accords.

Done by an army, led by it's own generals. I highly doubt it the order came from the Chantry, given that the Chantry does NOT control the armies in an Exhalted March.

Provoked the Qunari in Kirkwall and lots of people needlessly died.

The qunari were provoking everyone else by refusing to go away and generally being impossible to talk to.
Also the Arishok was a suicidal idiot, so I fai lto see why you blame the Chantry for it.

It also does next to nothing against templar/seeker abuse of power because it either can't or it won't...either is bad.

Incorrect. You can say that it didn't do enough and it didn't do it fast enough. But you can't say it does nothing.
Religious institutions are historicly slow to act and change, but that doesnt' mean they don't.
After all, waht was the purpose of the gathering in WhiteSpire? For mages to discuss changes to the circle and propose them to the Divine.

You are forgetting to put flowers in your head and sing the kumbaya with the members of the Chantry.

1) The templars are Lyrium addled. That's what it does to your brain after decades of use. Look at any templar that choose to remain in the order despite an advanced age. Their minds are crippled. And the only ones that do not suffer that are the ones that quit before that can happen. And guess what, they suffer serious cases of withdrawal because they were cut from their vice. And if the Chantry doesn't use lyrium to control their templars, it still an pretty convenient way to keep templars under their thrall.

2) Don't you even dare. It's an fact that the Chantry was fully involved in that slaughter. They endorsed it. And the very reason it happened was because people didn't want to convert to the worship of the maker.

3) Oh really? The Qunari sit on their asses for seven years doing nothing, bothering no one, and then they are attacked, have their members murdered (all incited by an official member of the chantry no less) and they are still responsible? You are not fooling anyone.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
1) Really? I always understood it as akin to real world Crusades, which were church-led wars.

Common misconception. Learn a bit of history.
The Church was never in command of the armies. The Church would call for the Crusades and gave an objective. People would answer and go about completing in their own way.

Kings would raise an army and volonteers would join in. But it was not the pope or the priest who led that army. It was the kings and generals. And if they decided to sack a town on the way to their objective or if they decided to kill everyone, ti was their command, not the churches.
If anything, you'd find that there was not that much difference in how willing people were to listen to preists then and now. Priest say "stop, dont' do that!"? Priest ends up "tragicly killed by heatens".

2) Can't really blame them for following their doctrine.

The actions of the qunari - or should I say, the Arishok - have little to do with doctrine and everything to do with stupidity.
He was sitting on his ass for 7 years, waiting for the book to come to him and constantly complaining how bad the city is and how the qunari do it better.
The emo hipster.
And then when his emo-meter was full he went and started a war.

1 word retcon now templars need lyrium to use their power...

Technicly it's a retcon of a retcon. Or retconnign back.

The original idea was always for lyrium to be nedded. But when there was no time to implement the addiction mechanic in the game, the devs changed Alistairs conversation so as to not confuse the palyer as to why he isn't experiencing adddiction.
Then they saw it jsut makes things worse so they retconned it back to the way t twas.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 20 février 2014 - 10:55 .

[The Elder King]

@Jaison1986: Gregoir is very, very old, and a templars for a long time, and he doesn't seem crippled or retarded to me.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Jaison1986 wrote...
1) The templars are Lyrium addled. That's what it does to your brain after decades of use. Look at any templar that choose to remain in the order despite an advanced age. Their minds are crippled. And the only ones that do not suffer that are the ones that quit before that can happen. And guess what, they suffer serious cases of withdrawal because they were cut from their vice. And if the Chantry doesn't use lyrium to control their templars, it still an pretty convenient way to keep templars under their thrall.

It may be convenient, but it isnt' deliberate or part of some malicious plan.

Also, there are odler templars that are perfectly lucid - like Greagoir.

In other words, it depends on how much lyrium one uses, how often and of course, the person itself.

2) Don't you even dare. It's an fact that the Chantry was fully involved in that slaughter. They endorsed it. And the very reason it happened was because people didn't want to convert to the worship of the maker.

Sauce

3) Oh really? The Qunari sit on their asses for seven years doing nothing, bothering no one, and then they are attacked, have their members murdered (all incited by an official member of the chantry no less) and they are still responsible? You are not fooling anyone.

For starting a war? Yes, they are responsible. The occasional attack by hatefull bigots does not justify an all-out war against a city.
Peatreace was killed and thus punished for her actions - which weren't endorsed by Elthina or the divine.
The other hate-mongers are not tied to the viscount, nor have they been sent by him. If anything, the viscount is a perfectly peacefull man. Yet the Arishok murdered him.

And you also help ilustrate the other problem.
They were sitting on their ass doing nothing and complaining the entire time. So much for qunari efficiency.

[Jaison1986]

The toolset says Gregoir is around his 50. That's not exactly elder.

Source for you: http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Rivain

"After 7:84 Storm: The Chantry and nationalist forces of Rivain, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, try a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves."

So attacks againt the Qunari are completely fine to overlook because they were small attacks made by bigots but when he responded to the attacks made against him he is completely wrong? Should keep sitting idle while his men are slaughtered by the dozens and totally ignore it? Or maybe those bigots should have just kept to themselves and done nothing against the Qunari in first place.

The Qunari were doing nothing to no one. That's what I meant. But the Arishok did sent his scouts in order to find the relic.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Jaison1986 wrote...
Source for you: http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Rivain

"After 7:84 Storm: The Chantry and nationalist forces of Rivain, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, try a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves."

Need morethan a wiki quote.

So attacks againt the Qunari are completely fine to overlook because they were small attacks made by bigots but when he responded to the attacks made against him he is completely wrong? Should keep sitting idle while his men are slaughtered by the dozens and totally ignore it? Or maybe those bigots should have just kept to themselves and done nothing against the Qunari in first place.

The Qunari were doing nothing to no one. That's what I meant. But the Arishok did sent his scouts in order to find the relic.

And killing people who have not harmed you does not count?
That is not defense.
That is pretty much "Bob punched you, so now you're gonna kill Bobs neighbours and family"
And they were never "slaughtered by the dozens"

The Arishok was unable to secure the book in 7 years. He was getting pissy and impatient. Thus he started a war.

[The Elder King]

The toolset isn't relevant at all in term of character's age. Bioware devs said so multiple times.
Gregoir is, based on the codex, as old as Irving (if not older), and nobody other than the FE remembers a time where he wasn't KC. He's obvious very old, and by appearance, older than every templar we saw affected by lyrium.

[The Elder King]

The Arishok actually started the war because he could no longer recuperate the book, and was stuck by the Qun's laws in Kirkwall.

[Jaison1986]

I'm not defending the Arishok. I actually find what he did wrong. The problem is that you are ignoring the reason of why he did what he did. You act as if all the provocations made against the Qunari are something to be ignored as if they just were an harmless mistake, and when the Arishok finally responds he is an fool. That is an extremelly one sided statement.

[Grieving Natashina]

If there is any real world approximation to Dragon Age, 50 is certainly getting up there. In a day and age without modern medicine, indoor plumbing or electricity, 50 was getting long in the tooth. We can't know for sure at this point; BioWare seems actually pretty reluctant to release ages on any major NPC or most of the companions.

I can agree that Gregoir seemed sound of mind and body, overall. No crazier or addled than any other major NPC in Origins. It goes back to my original thought: Kirkwall was supposed to show the absolute worst in both mages and templars. It sure succeeded on that and that's why more narrative balance is pretty crucial going forward.

[The Elder King]

Jaison1986 wrote...

I'm not defending the Arishok. I actually find what he did wrong. The problem is that you are ignoring the reason of why he did what he did. You act as if all the provocations made against the Qunari are something to be ignored as if they just were an harmless mistake, and when the Arishok finally responds he is an fool. That is an extremelly one sided statement.

Who are you responding to? Me or Lotion?