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[NoForgiveness]

MisterJB wrote...

Unfortunate but there are no other options. If the parents fail to understand the danger they children now pose to themselves and everyone around them; such as Meredith's family; then the following chaos will be on their heads, not the Templars'. Meredith's sister killed 72 before the Templars managed to stop her.

A mage living with his family ranks shorter on my list of priorities when compared to the lives of those 72 people.

Countering one injustice with another does not fix anything. That's exactly why so many mages turn to  blood magic, and their doing the same thing. This cycle continues because everyone is using injustice to counter injustice. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

MR_PN wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Unfortunate but there are no other options. If the parents fail to understand the danger they children now pose to themselves and everyone around them; such as Meredith's family; then the following chaos will be on their heads, not the Templars'. Meredith's sister killed 72 before the Templars managed to stop her.

A mage living with his family ranks shorter on my list of priorities when compared to the lives of those 72 people.

Countering one injustice with another does not fix anything. That's exactly why so many mages turn to  blood magic, and their doing the same thing. This cycle continues because everyone is using injustice to counter injustice. 

Yes yes poor mages they are soo poor and abused if only they got love then problem abomnations and insane and destructive mages would banish oh how many mages we saw because they were abused and how many because they were insane or power hungry oh 1/100 right...

as i said leting mages live solves nothing killing mages solves every problem about them ...

so another cires about injustice because mages live like kings constantly causing massive damage for thedas...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 15 février 2014 - 03:43 .

[Zazzerka]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Those 72 people were suredly happy in the knowledge that they died at the hands of a "free" mage....

Of course victims of mass killings generally aren't happy about it, genius. Of course they'd wish that their killer had been locked up or otherwise detained before they'd had a chance to perform the act.

No-one is dying to bandits and thinking, "Well! At least it wasn't one of those pesky mages!"

[MisterJB]

Zazzerka wrote...
Of course victims of mass killings generally aren't happy about it, genius. Of course they'd wish that their killer had been locked up or otherwise detained before they'd had a chance to perform the act.

No-one is dying to bandits and thinking, "Well! At least it wasn't one of those pesky mages!"

And no one is dying to normal children because they are unable to kill adults if there aren't any firearms lying around. Mage children, on the other hand... one kills 72 and another destroys an arling.
Both of them without even meaning to; the danger is not the same.

[Zazzerka]

I'm aware of the danger, and agree with the Circle to an extent (it should be a temporary solution whilst a real one is figured out, like a demon inoculation, and there needs to be a better screening process for Templars), I just thought that argument was a bit silly.

"The people who get killed will be mad."

[Inprea]

MisterJB wrote...
The fact that we have seen how both groups live. The Circle is certainly much more luxurious than the house of the average person in Redcliff or Denerim and then there is also the fact mages have access to services, such as a free education and food, whereas your average orlesian; one of the most advanced countries; can't even read.

The entire circle isn't devoted to a single mage. If you want to talk about how a mage lives let's look at the space an individual mage has. If you're an apprentice you have part of a bunk bed and a chest. Everything else you share amongst several others. Then after your death match you have a single room that doesn't even have a door to itself in most cases.  What good is an education if you're not allowed to put it to use to benefit yourself? All it means if you've put a lot of work into learning something you can't use.

MisterJB wrote...
There are, of course, special restrictions and requirements that come from life in the Circle but when was the last time a mage's sheep were slaughtered by Darkspawn which lead to their families starving and when he stole a couple of sacks of grain from the crown, he found himself facing a noose? When was the last time a mage found himself a refugee outside of city walls, hunger and disease everywhere while waiting for the enemy army to arrive?
Mages live an enviable, sheltered life. That they can wonder just how free they are is a luxury.

And before anyone says that the suffering of normal people does not make the suffering of mages any less real, do keep in mind that the point of this debate is who live better lives.

When was the last time a mage was allowed to own a sheep to be slaughtered? Unless memory fails me mages aren't even allowed to own land. How often is your average person locked away and denied to go see their family just because of what they were born as? A mage finds themselves in danger of losing their life whenever they try to better their situation.

MisterJB wrote...
They do not live with a sword at their back anymore than a kirkwaller does just because the guardsmen are around.

Because the guardsmen have the same population density as the templars do amongst the mages and stand around inside the home of the citizens.

MisterJB wrote...
First of all, we've seen a grand total of two cases of Templars taking advantage of their charges in that matter and both took great pains to conceal their crime.
Second, this is not unheard of in the outside world. Abuse of power is not something exclusive to Templars. 

So all those templars that fought alongside Alrick didn't exist? Do you also ignore the existance of every blood mage and abomination that wasn't given a name?

MisterJB wrote...
The mages know very well what happens to their accidental children. They are given to the care and, if they eventually reveal themselves to be mages, then they are sent to a Circle.
This is because:
a) The Chantry would never waste resources by drowning them.
Some mages like Rhys are accidental babies and can tell other mages their story.

They had no trouble stabbing them, even when they're a child, such as in Aneirin's case. They wouldn't even tell Wynne how he died. They have no trouble forcing the mages into a death match with a demon or destroying their self with tranquility. A mage goes 20 or so years without turning into an abomination then they're forced into a death match.

MisterJB wrote...
I mean the Circle where they will enjoy the companionship of other mages and be provided with free shelter, food, clothing and education.

What makes you think that it's free? Seems to me the mage is paying with their ability to raise children, chance to better their situation, severe carreer restrictions, possibly their life and in some cases any land they might have recieved from their parents. Is there even any proof that the chantry is the one paying for that food, clothing and shelter? The mages do produce goods to sell. If the mages are the ones paying for all that then those things aren't free they're just paid back later.

Given how desperate some mages are to avoid going to the circle should show how much some people value freedom and how horrible of a price they consider it.
 

MisterJB wrote...
Only the wealthy would be able to. And the danger would always be there.

That depends on if the mages were allowed to organize rather then being forced to hide. Malchom Hawke had no trouble teaching his child/children.

Also just to bring up Jowan before someone else does. I believe it was established that Jowan was not a good mage and a bad choice for a mentor. He was going to be made tranquil for being a blood mage but, and this is just my belief, I'd say he was kept away from the harrowing because he really wasn't ready for it.

MisterJB wrote...
Unfortunate but there are no other options. If the parents fail to understand the danger they children now pose to themselves and everyone around them; such as Meredith's family; then the following chaos will be on their heads, not the Templars'. Meredith's sister killed 72 before the Templars managed to stop her.

A mage living with his family ranks shorter on my list of priorities when compared to the lives of those 72 people.

Would that have happened if they didn't have to hide her but a mage would have been allowed to come and mentor her?

Besides I don't believe you think there is no other options. You've brought up ideas that you believed superior to the current circle system yourself. It's just no one has bothered looking for one or the chantry has prevented them from being attempted.

Modifié par Inprea, 15 février 2014 - 04:15 .

[Dean_the_Young]

@Za

Here I thought his argument was countering the point about the value of letting a potential parent live with their child by raising the point of letting 72 potential parents live with their children. It's as silly as arguing 'the people who get their children taken from them will be mad."

If you raise the cost of those who live within the Circles, you would be wise to compare it to the equivalent costs of those who don't live within the Circles.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 février 2014 - 04:14 .

[SgtSteel91]

Are the Gallows, a former slave pit, really better living conditions than the rest of Kirkwall, the rest of Fereldan compared to their Cirlce Tower?

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 15 février 2014 - 04:27 .

[Zazzerka]

@De

Yeah, righto. I'm just stirring - the adamant pro-Templars/pro-mages are all pretty ridiculous to me.

[Grieving Natashina]

Zazzerka wrote...

@De

Yeah, righto. I'm just stirring - the adamant pro-Templars/pro-mages are all pretty ridiculous to me.

You have to love fighting between two groups that typically don't wear pants. 

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Inprea wrote...

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
The fact that we have seen how both groups live. The Circle is certainly much more luxurious than the house of the average person in Redcliff or Denerim and then there is also the fact mages have access to services, such as a free education and food, whereas your average orlesian; one of the most advanced countries; can't even read. [/quote]

The entire circle isn't devoted to a single mage.
Indeed. It is, in fact, devoted to a greater picture and concerns of not just a single mage, but all mages and all mundanes. That is why the Circle is a result of a compromise. 

[quote]
If you want to talk about how a mage lives let's look at the space an individual mage has. If you're an apprentice you have part of a bunk bed and a chest. Everything else you share amongst several others. Then after your death match you have a single room that doesn't even have a door to itself in most cases. [/quote]So... more than most people in Thedas and the history of the real world.

I get you have been privileged enough to live a life with space, but that really isn't the standard of living. Only exceptionally developed and rich societies get to that point, and frequently not even then depending on your work.

[quote]
 What good is an education if you're not allowed to put it to use to benefit yourself? All it means if you've put a lot of work into learning something you can't use.[/quote]Would you like a philosophical answer or a practical dismissal of your claim?

Philosophically, education is its own virtue. It allows for understanding and insight, internal and external, and allows us to change what we understand and understand what we can not change.

Practically, you're just wrong. Mages are able to use their education in pursuit of interests and advantage. They can pursue social standing, develop the understanding and practice of magic to make it both more capable and less mysterious, they can pursue interests that can even allow them out of the Circles unsupervised if they have established credibility, and they can use their knowledge in commerce for making goods for trade for material advantage and even, though difficult and fraught with complications both practical and political, seek to develop remedies for the dangers of magic.

[quote]
When was the last time a mage was allowed to own a sheep to be slaughtered?[/quote]When weren't they?

Mage property is largely communal, but there's little indication this is forced upon them rather than a matter of choice. We also don't know the rules and such for private property... but we do know there is an entire fraternity interested in the accumulation of material wealth.
 [quote]
Unless memory fails me mages aren't even allowed to own land.[/quote]I don't remember that, but it's probably true. But then, most people in Thedas don't own land either. 
[quote]
How often is your average person locked away and denied to go see their family just because of what they were born as? A mage finds themselves in danger of losing their life whenever they try to better their situation. [/quote]So are commoners. Thedas is a dangerous place for the weak, even if the dangers are different. Commoners are only rarely quarantined because their dangers are different, but Commoners face different threats and have less resources against them.
[quote]
Because the guardsmen have the same population density as the templars do amongst the mages and stand around inside the home of the citizens.[/quote]Do the common citizens pose as much a risk to the guardsmen or require as much oversight as the mages do for the Templars?

[quote]
So all those templars that fought alongside Alrick didn't exist?[/quote]Did he say that? I don't think he did. I do believe me made a point that they knew they had to hide their actions because they were taboo even for Templars.
[quote]
Do you also ignore the existance of every blood mage and abomination that wasn't given a name? [/quote]In the context of them not representing policy of the establishment? Sure. They are tied to a separate issue, and so wouldn't be ignored in that context.They had no trouble stabbing them, even when they're a child, such as in
[quote]
Aneirin's case. They wouldn't even tell Wynne how he died. They have no trouble forcing the mages into a death match with a demon or destroying their self with tranquility. A mage goes 20 or so years without turning into an abomination then they're forced into a death match. [/quote]And then they are given a much greater degree of trust and opportunities in exchange. Given that by all accounts most who take the test pass and survive, and that the test is structured for the mage (such as the Mage Origin), it's not like this is a cage match. The mage is given a challenge as a bench mark, not thrown out to fight Pride Demons or the lucky draw of the day.

Stress tests are used to gauge how people perform under extreme stress. A mage going 20 or so years without turning into an abomination means little if he hasn't faced the sort of exceptional stress that could cause one to.

[quote]
What makes you think that it's free?[/quote]Since he was talking in the material term of the word...

[quote] Seems to me the mage is paying with their ability to raise children, chance to better their situation, severe carreer restrictions, possibly their life and in some cases any land they might have recieved from their parents. Is there even any proof that the chantry is the one paying for that food, clothing and shelter? The mages do produce goods to sell. If the mages are the ones paying for all that then those things aren't free they're just paid back later.[/quote]...much of this misses the point, and comically so, at least to the end where it runs into unestablished and unclear territory with the lore. Mages do sell runes, but it has never been established what portion of the costs mage industry provides, and what parts they do not. Nothing, for example, suggests the Mages subsidize the Chantry rather than the other way around, or that they pay the Templar salaries, or that in case of disaster the Chantry isn't the financial backer of first and last resort.  It certainly was Chantry resources that established the Circle system and its ability to make financial returns, and the Chantry does not force the Mages to labor.


As for the restrictions, these are not denied. Many of them are also opportunities the commoners of the age lack access to as well, which makes them fall flat as appeals to the mage plight. Enforcing them on mages, however, is part of the considerations to other factors... like what mages with too few restrictions can do to others.

[quote]
Given how desperate some mages are to avoid going to the circle should show how much some people value freedom and how horrible of a price they consider it.
[/quote]Sure. Has anyone denied that some mages dislike it?

I don't seem to recall anyone claiming the mages all like their lot in life, which is the only argument that statement counters.
[quote]
That depends on if the mages were allowed to organize rather then being forced to hide. Malchom Hawke had no trouble teaching his child/children. [/quote]No trouble? Really?

Let's ignore that Malcom Hawke's children were so properly raised that they tolerated irresponsible blood mages and revolutionary abominations to great costs despite numerous warning signs.

[quote]
Besides I don't believe you think there is no other options. You've brought up ideas that you believed superior to the current circle system yourself. It's just no one has bothered looking for one or the chantry has prevented them from being attempted.
[/quote]
If you ignore the times the Chantry, Templars, and mages have, sure. Why are we pretending inconvenient history doesn't exist again?

I realize we don't have much history in the first place, but there are multiple points in the history of the lore at which various parts of the triad tried changes or different styles that were supported or opposed by various parts of the triad. Some worked to varying degrees, some did not.

[Dean_the_Young]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Are the Gallows, a former slave pit, really better living conditions than the rest of Kirkwall, the rest of Fereldan compared to their Cirlce Tower?

Since the renovations for the Circle? Yup. It's not like the former slave pit is still in the save condition as it once was, and do recall that Kirkwall considers an open sewer a major living space, and that the boiling water in the alienage may not actually stop it from resisting (according to Merrill).

If you look at hygiene both public and private, quality of infrastructure (including building materials, furniture, furnishings), access to education, availability of food and relative quality, presence of and access to quality goods and luxuries (books, carpets, specialty tools and enchantments), access to medical care and quality thereof, prevalence of violent crime and organized criminals, and physical security from outside threats, the Ferelden Circle beats out virtually everyone we see outside of the nobility. And if you really want a kicker, in Ferelden there's a functioning rule of law in the Ferelden Circle, with the Templars not doing what they aren't supposed to do and the Mages having respected rights and responsibilities.

Which, compared to what nobles can get away with, is a remarkable achievement. A shame the Kirkwall Circle's rules fell on both sides. 

[leaguer of one]

Realmzmaster wrote...

If your Hawke found the notes left by the Band of Three the player knows that Tevinter conducted blood sacrifice on a massive scale to weaken the veil in and around Kirkwall. The whole city was constructed according to magical symbols. The magisters may have been trying to call the Forbidden Ones like Xebenkeck and Gaxkang the Unbound

Yep, the city is a madness generator.

[leaguer of one]

MisterJB wrote...

Zazzerka wrote...
Of course victims of mass killings generally aren't happy about it, genius. Of course they'd wish that their killer had been locked up or otherwise detained before they'd had a chance to perform the act.

No-one is dying to bandits and thinking, "Well! At least it wasn't one of those pesky mages!"

And no one is dying to normal children because they are unable to kill adults if there aren't any firearms lying around. Mage children, on the other hand... one kills 72 and another destroys an arling.
Both of them without even meaning to; the danger is not the same.

The cihild mage in your example event happened at the fault of his mother. And normally the emurgence of a mage does not mean massive death.

[The Baconer]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Are the Gallows, a former slave pit, really better living conditions than the rest of Kirkwall, the rest of Fereldan compared to their Cirlce Tower?

The furnishings would be irrelevant. Having a Circle at the Gallows was an example of pure laziness.

[leaguer of one]

The Baconer wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Are the Gallows, a former slave pit, really better living conditions than the rest of Kirkwall, the rest of Fereldan compared to their Cirlce Tower?

The furnishings would be irrelevant. Having a Circle at the Gallows was an example of pure laziness.

The entire city use to be a slave pit. The gallows was just the first place the slaves landed. Reaguardless, the gallows has better conditions then most of kirkwall. You think the mageswould be hapy starving in dark town?

[The Baconer]

leaguer of one wrote...
The entire city use to be a slave pit. The gallows was just the first place the slaves landed. Reaguardless, the gallows has better conditions then most of kirkwall. You think the mageswould be hapy starving in dark town?

The Circle should have been built off-site. It is known that the veil is weak in Kirkwall, and taking into account the Gallows' delightful artwork, I don't see why anyone should be surprised an event like that happened.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Baconer wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Are the Gallows, a former slave pit, really better living conditions than the rest of Kirkwall, the rest of Fereldan compared to their Cirlce Tower?

The furnishings would be irrelevant. Having a Circle at the Gallows was an example of pure laziness.

I wouldn't call it laziness as much as practicality and convenience.

[Grieving Natashina]

The Baconer wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Are the Gallows, a former slave pit, really better living conditions than the rest of Kirkwall, the rest of Fereldan compared to their Cirlce Tower?

The furnishings would be irrelevant. Having a Circle at the Gallows was an example of pure laziness.

I've been largely staying out of the thread, mainly due to a bit of mental exhaustion on the topic.  The end of the info drought can't come soon enough.  I'm pretty sick of templars and mages.  The sentence that I bolded got my attention though. I have to ask what you mean by this?

Note: I'm not trying to inject my personal feelings about the endless Mage/Templar debate with this post.  I'm only giving my reason why I'm confused by the bolded statement above.

IIRC, many of the Mage Towers/Circles were once old mage towers, probably of Tevinter origin.  They are being currently used for the mages, but they were already furbished and established by then.  My guess is that, once the Circle system was in place, they've hired craftmen and such to maintain their living quarters.

With the Gallows, it's much the same thing.  They've thrown in a few more furnishings (for the Templars' sake as much as the mages) but it's just another case of reusing an old Tevinter building to house mages.  I'm not sure how that's lazy.  I think it's pretty smart.  Why have another structure built when there is one perfectly capable of doing the job already in place?   Lazy?  More like efficient if you ask me.

Modifié par Starsyn, 15 février 2014 - 05:46 .

[The Baconer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I wouldn't call it laziness as much as practicality and convenience.

Synonymous in this case, especially since it ended up being the opposite of convenient for everyone involved.

Starsyn wrote...
I've been largely staying out of the thread,
mainly due to a bit of mental exhaustion on the topic.  The end of the
info drought can't come soon enough.  I'm pretty sick of templars and
mages.  The sentence that I bolded got my attention though. I have to
ask what you mean by this?

The condition of the veil at Kirkwall and its proximity to the city made it toxic, as well as the facility's iconography. It's less effecient and more just cutting corners, with  the people of city paying the price.

Modifié par The Baconer, 15 février 2014 - 05:45 .

[Grieving Natashina]

Ah, if you meant that it was silly of the Chantry to house the mages there, then I agree. However, Kirkwall is a pretty big city-state. Not many other places to put them. The Chantry probably figured the Gallows would be the best bet. Why not? It was a prison and one designed to hold slaves after all.   In their eyes, why spend the money when a prison partially built from magic as its height is already there?

Besides, many of us can agree that the whole Mage/Templar conflict was a ticking bomb waiting to go off. Most of the Circles are areas with Veils that were weak even before the Circle system was in place. Kirkwall and the surrounding areas may have a very weak Veil, but pretty much all Circle buildings do.

Oh and the whole Engima of Kirkwall meta-knowledge? Not exactly well known. It's been speculated upon by some mages and priests, but Hawke was one of the very very few to find the scattered clues around the area that spells it out for the player.  The writers of the Engima obviously didn't live to spread the tale.

The Chantry made a reasonable bet here (even though it did backfire ~900 years later.) They probably figured Kirkwall's Veil was no more scarred than any other area of high conflict and war. Which is most of Thedas, really.

Modifié par Starsyn, 15 février 2014 - 05:52 .

[Sir JK]

Inprea: While you're right that the hardships that the mages do face are serious ones and certainly a good explanation to why they're rising up, I think you're dismissing the luxuries of the circles and the hardships of ordinary citizens much to easily.

Liselle in the Denerim markets had to flee her homeland because a Chevalier tried to rape her and her brother protected her. Mirroring the worst abuses of Alrik, but in this case with an entire nation actively protecting the perpetrator.

Goldanna feeds and houses five children in a house smaller than the room of a single enchanter in Kinloch. Just as an example. We see other homes that are similar in size in both Denerim, Redcliffe and Kirkwall.

The citizens of Lothering and Honnleath had to leave their homes and livelihoods behind because of a blight. We also see more of this at the gates of Kirkwall with it's refugees, there's also mention of refugees at the gates of Val Royeaux fleeing the conflict in Asunder.

Hawke and sibling was sold into indentured servitude (ie. without pay) for a year to just be allowed into Kirkwall. The line between indentured servitude and slavery is a fine one, if it exist at all. Nor is this a unique circumstance as Zevran tells us he was sold into slavery (despite it being nominally illegal in Antiva).

Walter and Cricket are forced to beg to support their fellow orphans, if you give them money it's sort of implied that it'll be the first real meal in a few days. Nadezda in Orzammar also begs, hr kneecaps crushed. Similarily, there's quite a few prostitutes in the Pearl and in the Rose. Neither is a life you choose for yourself.

Keran joined the Templar order not out of belief but to be able to care for his sister, and if they're expelled they fall mercy to loan sharks. Pryce is forced to work for Athenril for similar reasons, essentially being treated as expendable.

There's the farmer in Awakening that steals grain to feed his family and has the heavy hand of law land on him, only the mercy of his landlord can allow him to go free.

Arianni and Zerlindawere both forced to choose between their children and their homes. More of a choice than most mages face, yeah. But not exactly one they wanted to make.
Similarily, Nyssa is trapped in an experience of never being allowed children of her own.

Asunder tells us of Jean-Petit who died because his daughter torched his home when her magic manifested (not clear whether it was intentional or not, the farmer telling us seems to think so but he's probably biased).

Vaughn and Howe both caused immense suffering.

And while the life of nobility stands in stark contrast to this kind of life, they make up for in pure violence. The Vaels and Couslands almost wiped out because of jealously. The Threnholds, Harrowmonts and Howes attacked because of their relative. Trian and both Dumars were killed because of political plots.

Sebastian puts it nicely when Anders question him about the freedom of mages when he says not him nor Hawke has had any choice in their life. Supposedly free people, yet not ones that has decided where their lives took them. No more practical freedom than any mage has.

By contrast... we learn of many mages that question the traditional picture painted to us. Bethany, Irving, Wynne, Ines and even Ella of all people actually do not express objection to the system as such (it's Ella's letter that tells us of what Bethany's views are in private). In Asunder we learn that Rhys used to be able to go out and shop on occasion. The Baroness bought a mansion. In an epilogue slide we learn another mage bought that mansion.
In the stolen throne a mage leads 3 chevalier legions (!) and another acts as essentially prime minister.

Yeah, the life of mages in circles sucked at times. There were abuses, there were systematic problems and even arbitrary and draconian restrictions on them. But life in Thedas is not by default better. It's not a ladder where mages stand on a rung lower than anyone else. Some mages have it worse, some have it better. And the same applies to anyone in Thedas.

[The Baconer]

Starsyn wrote...

Ah, if you meant that it was silly of the Chantry to house the mages there, then I agree. However, Kirkwall is a pretty big city-state. Not many other places to put them. The Chantry probably figured the Gallows would be the best bet? Why not? It was a prison and one designed to hold slaves after all.

Why would you dump people in a prison filled with the artwork of people suffering and expect obedience?

Besides, many of us can agree that the whole Mage/Templar conflict was a ticking bomb waiting to go off. Most of the Circles are areas with Veils that were weak even before the Circle system was in place. Kirkwall and the surrounding areas may have a very weak Veil, but pretty much all Circle buildings do.

It was, but it didn't have to be. If each side were more willing to work with the other I don't see why every circle couldn't have been as nice as the Fereldan one.

Oh and the whole Engima of Kirkwall meta-knowledge? Not exactly well known. It's been speculated upon by some mages and priestss, but Hawke was one of the very very few to find the scattered clues around the area that spells it out for the player. They probably figured Kirkwall's Veil was no more scarred than any other area of high conflict and war.

The mages know. The rate of blood mages, abominations, and failed harrowings (which was noted to be unusual) was evidence enough.

[KC_Prototype]

Not really, both sides have their flaws and if you seen the thousands threads, there are a lot of pro-Templars. I for one am looking for reform on both sides.

[leaguer of one]

The Baconer wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
The entire city use to be a slave pit. The gallows was just the first place the slaves landed. Reaguardless, the gallows has better conditions then most of kirkwall. You think the mageswould be hapy starving in dark town?

The Circle should have been built off-site. It is known that the veil is weak in Kirkwall, and taking into account the Gallows' delightful artwork, I don't see why anyone should be surprised an event like that happened.

The issue is a matter of translation from mage to chantry. You have to consider if the chartey and templars would care about that. Even then even the outside of kirkwall is crazy. the surounding area of kirkwall is an elvin buarial ground for the final stand with their war with Tevintor. Even the fereldin circle is near a thin veil and in tevintor make.