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[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote..

The fact that so far most Templars have been portrayed as dicks doesn't change that.

Most templars are dicks. The codex explicitly says that they give preference to dicks in recruitment.

Does the codex say most mages are idiots too?

[TK514]

Veruin wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

There isn't a right or a wrong side.

The right side of anything is whatever Xil says it is.  Anything else is wrong.

How quickly we seem to have forgotten.

[wcholcombe]

Xilizhra wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

But it is really bad rping. Unless you are playing an anything goes power hungry character, than I guess it is good rping.

How is a willingness to lie bad RPing? I don't like killing people I don't have to.

It depends on the character you were playing. If to that point you had been entirely supportive of Merril and your character truly thought what she was doing was right, than it isn't really rping the character to suddenly change your stance at that point.  Especially if the only reason you did was because of the metagaming knowledge of the consequences.

If your character up to that point had been duplitious and what they said didn't really mean anything throughout the game than maybe not.

Plus, the whole use of your friendship being locked in and the justification that there would be no consequence from Merril sounds like bad RPing to me.

Don't get me wrong, there are characters that can make it work, but in general if you are friends with Merril and have a history of being supportive of her and her goals, suddenly throwing her under the bus because there are no in game consequences is a little bad rping in my mind.

Again just me.  Enjoy the game.

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...


is too awesome to lose. As the mage plot is.

Bahahahahaha :lol:


No

Modifié par AresKeith, 20 février 2014 - 06:05 .

[durasteel]

TK514 wrote...
I can't help but find this amusing.  You support Merrill, think what she was doing was right and how she went about it was ok.  You call her 'responsible', and 'a savant', while calling Marethari an idiot.

And then tell us you threw Merrill under the bus when it confronted by her clan, because the only way to prevent them from attacking Hawke and Co is to blame Merrill for what happened.

Classic.

They needed a scapegoat. Between blowing smoke up their butts or killing them all, I think I'm pretty comfortable with the choice I made. Merrill didn't seem to take issue with it.

While I might have prefered an option to tell them that Marethari was an idiot that didn't lead to blowing all of them up, sometimes you gotta play the hand you're dealt.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

She either had it or knew where it was. I believe she was in possession of it the whole time but had been unable to get it to the person she was supposed to deliver it to.

I will trash her the same as I trash Merrill. They are both self serving dolts. And I enjoyed sending her home with the Arishok after she returned the book.

She escaped, and stole the book. Your revenge came to nothing and wound up hurting the qunari more.

Alas, I have no similar answer for abuse of Merrill, as of yet. My hope is that she becomes vital to something in DAI, like Tali was in ME3, and what you've done winds up ruining a portion of your plot. 

Given the animosity between the Dalish and the Chantry (factoring in the elven historical version of the invasion and fall of the Dales), I think Merrill could be seen as a hero among the Elvhen if she opposes Meredith. Consider that the Knight-Commander rules over Kirkwall and is at the seat of templar power over eastern Thedas, the idea of a Dalish elf taking on an army of templars - and the de facto Viscount of Kirkwall via Knight-Commander herself, enpowered by red lyrium no less - could put her in the same light among the People that a mage Champion is if he opposes Meredith, by showing the denizens of the Circles that the templars can be defied.

[Xilizhra]

Does the codex say most mages are idiots too?

Nope, so that's not canon.

It depends on the character you were playing. If to that point you had been entirely supportive of Merril and your character truly thought what she was doing was right, than it isn't really rping the character to suddenly change your stance at that point. Especially if the only reason you did was because of the metagaming knowledge of the consequences.

I'm not changing my stance, I'm lying. My reasons for saying what I say are entirely up to my own RP.

If your character up to that point had been duplitious and what they said didn't really mean anything throughout the game than maybe not.

When necessary. I lied to that one Tevinter slaver to get him to back off, and I lied to Karras to make him leave. I'm happy to lie to potential hostiles to avoid a bloodbath if I can't use diplomacy to get through it instead.

Plus, the whole use of your friendship being locked in and the justification that there would be no consequence from Merril sounds like bad RPing to me.

Hardly. The lock-in means that she fully trusts me and that whatever I'm doing, I have a good reason for. It's too minor by this point to affect her love for me.

Don't get me wrong, there are characters that can make it work, but in general if you are friends with Merril and have a history of being supportive of her and her goals, suddenly throwing her under the bus because there are no in game consequences is a little bad rping in my mind.

It's not really throwing her under the bus in this context, just fast-talking the stupid, angry elves.

To be honest, I did try the other route, but I decided not to do it because I felt that, given Merrill's reaction after returning home, her trauma there wasn't being realistically upheld through the rest of the game, so it broke my immersion and I went back to lying.

[TK514]

durasteel wrote...

TK514 wrote...
I can't help but find this amusing.  You support Merrill, think what she was doing was right and how she went about it was ok.  You call her 'responsible', and 'a savant', while calling Marethari an idiot.

And then tell us you threw Merrill under the bus when it confronted by her clan, because the only way to prevent them from attacking Hawke and Co is to blame Merrill for what happened.

Classic.

They needed a scapegoat. Between blowing smoke up their butts or killing them all, I think I'm pretty comfortable with the choice I made. Merrill didn't seem to take issue with it.

While I might have prefered an option to tell them that Marethari was an idiot that didn't lead to blowing all of them up, sometimes you gotta play the hand you're dealt.

So you metagamed it.  Far enough, I guess, if that's your thing.

[wcholcombe]

Xilizhra wrote...

There isn't a right or a wrong side. Mages need to be educated and trained. The public needs to be protected from the dangers of Magic. Mages need to be protected from the dangers of the public and trained to avoid the dangers of themselves.

None of which requires templars.

Actually, for that system to exist, the Templars are required for there to be a method of enforcement.  I think it is fairly cheap to rely on just in game and book examples of Mages failing to police themselves, but as that is the methodology used to condemn Templars for the horrible behavior of the ones we have seen, I shall abide by the rules of the discussion.

Rhys even at the end of the book is still harboring a known murderer in Asunder--no I am not referring to Cole.
Wynne going against tower law and Chantry law by not killing the Tranquil who had become an Abomination.
The mages in the tower during The Calling were very bad at policing themselves.
The idiocy of all the Mages in DA2
The failure of the mages to police themselves in DAO regarding the broken circle-seriously, more of them knew what was going on than just a couple.
The mages in Asunder who thought it was a good idea to murder or attempt to murder Celine.

So yes, the Templars are necessary. 

Modifié par wcholcombe, 20 février 2014 - 06:12 .

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

Does the codex say most mages are idiots too?

Nope, so that's not canon

Neither does it says Templars are dicks, so your claim and headcanon are invalid

[LobselVith8]

TK514 wrote...

durasteel wrote...

They needed a scapegoat. Between blowing smoke up their butts or killing them all, I think I'm pretty comfortable with the choice I made. Merrill didn't seem to take issue with it.

While I might have prefered an option to tell them that Marethari was an idiot that didn't lead to blowing all of them up, sometimes you gotta play the hand you're dealt. 

So you metagamed it.  Far enough, I guess, if that's your thing. 

One could also kill the initial Dalish on the mountain of Sundermount, then immediately leave the area after you climb down the mountain (by heading right) without killing all the Sabrae clan. I certainly dislike the idea of condemning Merrill during the confrontation; the dialogue to blame everything on her when Marethari's actions weren't her fault felt too out-of-character for me.

[Xilizhra]

Rhys even at the end of the book is still harboring a known murderer in Asunder--no I am not referring to Cole.
Wynne going against tower law and Chantry law by not killing the Tranquil who had become an Abomination.

Both involved either unjust laws or vital action taken against the tyrants.

The mages in the tower during The Calling were very bad at policing themselves.

Haven't read, can't comment.

The idiocy of all the Mages in DA2

lulz

The failure of the mages to police themselves in DAO regarding the broken circle-seriously, more of them knew what was going on than just a couple.

Those who were in on the conspiracy... and it's not like the templars succeeded in uncovering it either.

The mages in Asunder who thought it was a good idea to murder or attempt to murder Celine.

Er, one tried to murder the Divine, but... I'm pretty sure none tried to attack Celene. And the one who tried the Divine might actually have been released as a false flag attack by Lambert, if I recall.

So yes, the Templars are necessary.

Let me clarify: the Templar Order as it stands is not necessary. Sure, mages should have antimagic warriors around to protect them from demons, but the current templars are very, very far from ideal for this.

Neither does it says Templars are dicks, so your claim and headcanon are invalid

From the templar codex:
"Templars must carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the
Order of Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute
loyalty over paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes
time to make difficult choices."
So, yes.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 20 février 2014 - 06:18 .

[durasteel]

The Hierophant wrote...
Reread the codices. All it said is that the Rivaini branch broke the Llomerryn Accords by teaming up with the nationalists, who wouldn't be Andrastians but traditionalists based on the lore, and made no mention of the Seekers being involved. There's nothing in the lore that indicates that Val Royeaux assisted the Rivaini branch beyond not punishing them, but considering the Chantry's weak foothold in Rivain i doubt they could do so without conflict.

The World of Thedas provides more info. After Kirkwall, Seekers came to investigate reports that the Circle in Dairsmuid was allowing mages to freely mingle with their families and learn non-sanctioned schools of magic that have been part of Rivaini tradition for thousands of years. Finding these reports accurate, they branded the entire circle apostates and invoked the Rite of Annulment and massacred them all.

To invoke the Rite of Annulment, as I understand it, requires communication with Val Royeaux. If it does not, then VR sent the Seekers there with the authority already vested.

Modifié par durasteel, 20 février 2014 - 06:20 .

[wcholcombe]

Or, Merril could have just listened to Marethari who knew a great deal more than she did and avoided the whole thing, but what happened her pride led her back to a pride demon. So yes, it was Merrils fault.

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

From the templar codex:
"Templars must carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the
Order of Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute
loyalty over paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes
time to make difficult choices."
So, yes.

Still no, just because it's suit with YOU doesn't mean otherwise

Sure the Order does need some changes but it's still necessary 

[LobselVith8]

durasteel wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Seige of Val Royaux happened before the Exalted March. The Chantry was uninvolved in the war until after the sacking of Montsimmard, and the Exalted March didn't enter into effect until during or after the sacking of Val Royaux.

That's not how I read it. It seems to me that after the Divine called for the Exalted March, the elves "eventually" got around to sacking Val Reyeaux. According to the timeline, the war went on for 10 years... they didn't need to hurry.

That's because the Dalish historical account (as well as the elven Warden) claims that the Chantry started the war because the elves of the Dales wouldn't convert to the human religion, while the Chantry version claims that the elves started the war against their neighboring humans for no reason.

[Xilizhra]

Or, Merril could have just listened to Marethari who knew a great deal more than she did and avoided the whole thing, but what happened her pride led her back to a pride demon. So yes, it was Merrils fault.

Lulz again. Marethari knew nothing and was subverted by a demon for her arrogance and idiocy.

Still no, just because it's suit with YOU doesn't mean otherwise

It explicitly says that they screen out the virtuous.

[Hellion Rex]

wcholcombe wrote...
A.Rhys even at the end of the book is still harboring a known murderer in Asunder--no I am not referring to Cole.

B.Wynne going against tower law and Chantry law by not killing the Tranquil who had become an Abomination.

A. Who? Evangeline?

B. If you read, then you know that Justinia was the one who granted her permission to do all of the above, so she certainly didn't break any rules.

[The Hierophant]

durasteel wrote...

The World of Thedas provides more info. After Kirkwall, Seekers came to investigate reports that the Circle was allowing mages to freely mingle with their families and learn non-sanctioned schools of magic that have been part of Rivaini tradition for thousands of years. Finding these reports accurate, they branded the entire circle apostates and invoked the Rite of Annulment and massacred them all.

To invoke the Rite of Annulment, as I understand it, requires communication with Val Royeaux. If it does not, then VR sent the Seekers there with the authority already vested.

My bad i thought you were talking about the massacre of Qunari converts two centuries back.

[LobselVith8]

wcholcombe wrote...

Or, Merril could have just listened to Marethari who knew a great deal more than she did and avoided the whole thing, but what happened her pride led her back to a pride demon. So yes, it was Merrils fault.

Merrill extrapolated information from the shard and studied the lore on the Eluvians. What exactly did Marethari do to prove she knew more than Merrill, aside from jump from one baseless conclusion to another between Acts II and III? And considering that Marethari is the one who let Audacity free, I'm not going to blame Merrill for the Keeper's actions when Merrill refused to let Audacity free for years.

Marethari claimed she let Audacity free to protect Merrill, then proceeded to try to kill Merrill as an abomination. You don't see the flaw in Marethari's logic?

[TK514]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

durasteel wrote...

They needed a scapegoat. Between blowing smoke up their butts or killing them all, I think I'm pretty comfortable with the choice I made. Merrill didn't seem to take issue with it.

While I might have prefered an option to tell them that Marethari was an idiot that didn't lead to blowing all of them up, sometimes you gotta play the hand you're dealt. 

So you metagamed it.  Far enough, I guess, if that's your thing. 

One could also kill the initial Dalish on the mountain of Sundermount, then immediately leave the area after you climb down the mountain (by heading right) without killing all the Sabrae clan. I certainly dislike the idea of condemning Merrill during the confrontation; the dialogue to blame everything on her when Marethari's actions weren't her fault felt too out-of-character for me.

I concur.  As someone who supported her the entire game, it didn't even occur to me to blame her for something that clearly wasn't her fault.  It would have been a betrayal.  I didn't even realize there was a way not to kill them all until my third or fourth play through.

[Xilizhra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Or, Merril could have just listened to Marethari who knew a great deal more than she did and avoided the whole thing, but what happened her pride led her back to a pride demon. So yes, it was Merrils fault.

Merrill extrapolated information from the shard and studied the lore on the Eluvians. What exactly did Marethari do to prove she knew more than Merrill, aside from jump from one baseless conclusion to another between Acts II and III? And considering that Marethari is the one who let Audacity free, I'm not going to blame Merrill for the Keeper's actions when Merrill refused to let Audacity free for years.

Marethari claimed she let Audacity free to protect Merrill, then proceeded to try to kill Merrill as an abomination. You don't see the flaw in Marethari's logic?

*fistbump*

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

Or, Merril could have just listened to Marethari who knew a great deal more than she did and avoided the whole thing, but what happened her pride led her back to a pride demon. So yes, it was Merrils fault.

Lulz again. Marethari knew nothing and was subverted by a demon for her arrogance and idiocy.

Your Merrill defense is amusing

Still no, just because it's suit with YOU doesn't mean otherwise

It explicitly says that they screen out the virtuous.

Ok and?

Plus I also stated that yes the Templar Order does need some changes

[AresKeith]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Marethari claimed she let Audacity free to protect Merrill, then proceeded to try to kill Merrill as an abomination. You don't see the flaw in Marethari's logic?

She asked Merrill to kill her

[durasteel]

wcholcombe wrote...

Or, Merril could have just listened to Marethari who knew a great deal more than she did and avoided the whole thing, but what happened her pride led her back to a pride demon. So yes, it was Merrils fault.

Marethari could have trusted Merrill and respected the fact that Merrill's ability far outmatched her own. If Marethari had simply gone to Merrill and said "Hey, that demon plans to come through your mirror and wear you like a cheap suit," Merrill would have had a chance to reply "Yeah, I know, I've been preparing to deal with the demon. I'd welcome your help."

Even after possessing Marethari that demon went down like a lead balloon. If the idiot keeper hadn't run off to bollocks things up by herself there would have been no problem.

Merrill was never dishonest with Marethari or with Hawke. Marethari caused the problem by being dishonest with Merrill and by failing to trust her. It's Marethari's fault, plain and simple.