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[wcholcombe]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]Rhys even at the end of the book is still harboring a known murderer in Asunder--no I am not referring to Cole.
Wynne going against tower law and Chantry law by not killing the Tranquil who had become an Abomination.[/quote]
Both involved either unjust laws or vital action taken against the tyrants.
[/quote]
What is unjust about killing an Abomination? and seriously, your defense for Adrian killing the guys is action against tyrants?  No she manipulated everyone involved and lead to the deaths of hundreds if not thousands.  Completely moving past that, Rhys should have brought her up on murder charges after they all fled.  She murdered a fellow mage.
[quote]
[quote]The mages in the tower during The Calling were very bad at policing themselves.[/quote]
Haven't read, can't comment.

[quote]The idiocy of all the Mages in DA2[/quote]
lulz[/quote]
Granted most of the characters in DA2 were horrible, but that doesn't stop people from using the templars as examples.
[quote]
[quote]The failure of the mages to police themselves in DAO regarding the broken circle-seriously, more of them knew what was going on than just a couple.[/quote]
Those who were in on the conspiracy... and it's not like the templars succeeded in uncovering it either.
[/quote]
More people knew what he was planning than just those in the conspiracy, they also knew he was doing forbidden research[quote]
[quote]The mages in Asunder who thought it was a good idea to murder or attempt to murder Celine.[/quote]
Er, one tried to murder the Divine, but... I'm pretty sure none tried to attack Celene. And the one who tried the Divine might actually have been released as a false flag attack by Lambert, if I recall.
[/quote]
Yes my mistake the Divine, not Celine.  I find it hard to believe that Lambert was behind it.  Even if he was, the mage still thought it was a good idea to kill the Divine?

[quote]So yes, the Templars are necessary. [/quote]
Let me clarify: the Templar Order as it stands is not necessary. Sure, mages should have antimagic warriors around to protect them from demons, but the current templars are very, very far from ideal for this.
[/quote]
In the same way that current Mages are largely less than ideal in their view of the world, their own responsibilities in it, etc.

[/quote]

Modifié par wcholcombe, 20 février 2014 - 06:29 .

[Xilizhra]

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Marethari claimed she let Audacity free to protect Merrill, then proceeded to try to kill Merrill as an abomination. You don't see the flaw in Marethari's logic?

She asked Merrill to kill her

And she didn't kneel down for the murder knife why, then?

[LobselVith8]

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Marethari claimed she let Audacity free to protect Merrill, then proceeded to try to kill Merrill as an abomination. You don't see the flaw in Marethari's logic? 

She asked Merrill to kill her 

The possessed Marethari then tried to kill Merrill, and the abomination even tries to deceive the former First when she weakened the abomination, which you seem to have ignored entirely.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 20 février 2014 - 06:31 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Xilizhra wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Marethari claimed she let Audacity free to protect Merrill, then proceeded to try to kill Merrill as an abomination. You don't see the flaw in Marethari's logic?

She asked Merrill to kill her

And she didn't kneel down for the murder knife why, then?

Cause the demon had a different opinon.

[TK514]

eluvianix wrote...
A. Who? Evangeline?

I'd have said Adrian, since he validates her every action by betraying his mother's memory and plunging the world into a war that didn't need to happen.

Sure, he tells her to get lost, but it's hard to take it seriously when she gets exactly what she wanted because of him, and he continues to associate with the movement that condones her actions.

[durasteel]

TK514 wrote...
I concur.  As someone who supported her the entire game, it didn't even occur to me to blame her for something that clearly wasn't her fault.  It would have been a betrayal.  I didn't even realize there was a way not to kill them all until my third or fourth play through.

Honestly it was the same for me the first time, the party at the cave mouth got obliterated and we didn't return to the camp. After I discovered that I could spare them, it seemed like a no brainer that Merrill, who had been working so hard to try to help her people, would rather take the blame and be scapegoated than to butcher her clan's hunters.

[shit's fucked cunts]

Merrill is delicious. How you couldn't defend and protect that shit is beyond me.

[Steelcan]

now now they are elves and are thus not capable of higher mental functions, we can't be too harsh on them

[Xilizhra]

What is unjust about killing an Abomination? and seriously, your defense for Adrian killing the guys is action against tyrants? No she manipulated everyone involved and lead to the deaths of hundreds if not thousands. Completely moving past that, Rhys should have brought her up on murder charges after they all fled. She murdered a fellow mage.

Adrian killed Pharamond because he was literally begging for it. I really don't think that's the same as murder, morally speaking; it's more like assisted suicide. The templars were going to make him Tranquil again, and the process is utterly hellish.

Granted most of the characters in DA2 were horrible, but that doesn't stop people from using the templars as examples.

No, I mean that idiot mages aren't all that common in DA2. You have like three crazy people (Tahrone, Decimus and Quentin) and the others are possessed (including Grace). Then there's Orsino who snaps at the end, but that was wholly because of the templars.

More people knew what he was planning than just those in the conspiracy

And how do you know they even had the chance to report anything before it went into action?

Yes my mistake the Divine, not Celine. I find it hard to believe that Lambert was behind it. Even if he was, the mage still thought it was a good idea to kill the Divine?

He definitely seemed on the mentally unstable side, yes.

In the same way that current Mages are largely less than ideal in their view of the world, their own responsibilities in it, etc.

By and large, they haven't discovered any of that yet, having never been free; it'll take time to build that up. But the destruction of the templars is vital.

[AresKeith]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Marethari claimed she let Audacity free to protect Merrill, then proceeded to try to kill Merrill as an abomination. You don't see the flaw in Marethari's logic? 

She asked Merrill to kill her 

The abomination Marethari then tried to kill Merrill, and even tries to deceive her when she's weakened the abomination, which you seem to have ignored entirely.

Yeaaaa no, Marethari let Audacity free to protect Merrill since the same thing was gonna happen to Merrill if she went to Audacity. She asked Merrill to kill her to stop the demon but Merrill didn't

What you seem and Xil seemed to have ignored entirely is that the abomination is the demon controlling her not Marethari.

[wcholcombe]

LobselVith8 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Or, Merril could have just listened to Marethari who knew a great deal more than she did and avoided the whole thing, but what happened her pride led her back to a pride demon. So yes, it was Merrils fault.

Merrill extrapolated information from the shard and studied the lore on the Eluvians. What exactly did Marethari do to prove she knew more than Merrill, aside from jump from one baseless conclusion to another between Acts II and III? And considering that Marethari is the one who let Audacity free, I'm not going to blame Merrill for the Keeper's actions when Merrill refused to let Audacity free for years.

Marethari claimed she let Audacity free to protect Merrill, then proceeded to try to kill Merrill as an abomination. You don't see the flaw in Marethari's logic?

Ok, so while you in the past have defended Keepers as being knowledgeable and intelligent and having the best interest of the Clan in mind.  But now a Keeper is an idiot and a child of an elf knows more than she does?

No, Marethari was trying to get Merril to forget about the Eluvian forever.  Remember in DAO they were camped near an Eluvian.  Remember what happened to one of Marethari's elves?  I am going to give her the benefit of the doubt over Merril who by her own interactions demonstrates a lack of overall knowledge of anything.

Marethari wanted Merrill to leave the Eluvian alone. Merrill gained nothing by pursuing it.

[BroBear Berbil]

LobselVith8 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Or, Merril could have just listened to Marethari who knew a great deal more than she did and avoided the whole thing, but what happened her pride led her back to a pride demon. So yes, it was Merrils fault.

Merrill extrapolated information from the shard and studied the lore on the Eluvians. What exactly did Marethari do to prove she knew more than Merrill, aside from jump from one baseless conclusion to another between Acts II and III? And considering that Marethari is the one who let Audacity free, I'm not going to blame Merrill for the Keeper's actions when Merrill refused to let Audacity free for years.

Marethari claimed she let Audacity free to protect Merrill, then proceeded to try to kill Merrill as an abomination. You don't see the flaw in Marethari's logic?

So add Marethari to the list of stupid mages?

I don't think Marethari's solution was all that great but I have a hard time trusting Merrill to know what she's doing. Night Terrors showed that she's susceptible to pride demons. Her repeated assurances that she's in control in her dealings with the demon is pure pride.

[Br3admax]

Steelcan wrote...

now now they are elves and are thus not capable of higher mental functions, we can't be too harsh on them

Why do you hate women. 

[GreyLycanTrope]

Zazzerka wrote...

Merrill is delicious. How you couldn't defend and protect that shit is beyond me.

Rivalmance tbh. I can like her and not agree with everything she does.

[Steelcan]

Br3ad wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

now now they are elves and are thus not capable of higher mental functions, we can't be too harsh on them

Why do you hate women. 

Because I am a terrible terrible misogynististic white supremacist

[AresKeith]

I'm not surprised to see Xil defend Adrian

[Xilizhra]

I don't think Marethari's solution was all that great but I have a hard time trusting Merrill to know what she's doing. Night Terrors showed that she's susceptible to pride demons. Her repeated assurances that she's in control in her dealings with the demon is pure pride.

It's a realm of mind control. Literally everyone succumbs to demons when in that realm except for the guy who's already possessed, but you don't see Isabela falling to the whims of Allure, or Merrill being claimed by Hybris.

Rivalmance tbh. I can like her and not agree with everything she does.

May the rivalmance and those Hawkes who conducted it burn forever.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 20 février 2014 - 06:38 .

[wcholcombe]

durasteel wrote...

TK514 wrote...
I concur.  As someone who supported her the entire game, it didn't even occur to me to blame her for something that clearly wasn't her fault.  It would have been a betrayal.  I didn't even realize there was a way not to kill them all until my third or fourth play through.

Honestly it was the same for me the first time, the party at the cave mouth got obliterated and we didn't return to the camp. After I discovered that I could spare them, it seemed like a no brainer that Merrill, who had been working so hard to try to help her people, would rather take the blame and be scapegoated than to butcher her clan's hunters.

If playing for fun or pure enjoyment I can get his.  But playing your character within constraints of having to make hard and painful choices tends to be more fun and fulfilling to me than metagaming for character happiness.

Not criticising your decision of subsequent play throughs, just explaining my position.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rivalmance tbh. I can like her and not agree with everything she does.

May the rivalmance and those Hawkes who conducted it burn forever.

May they join all the elves

Modifié par Steelcan, 20 février 2014 - 06:41 .

[LobselVith8]

AresKeith wrote...

Yeaaaa no, Marethari let Audacity free to protect Merrill since the same thing was gonna happen to Merrill if she went to Audacity. She asked Merrill to kill her to stop the demon but Merrill didn't

Marethari let Audacity free because she thought Audacity would escape from the restored Eluvian that Merrill was building; I wonder where the Keeper would have gotten this idea from, since it's not the reason Marethari initially opposed Merrill's actions in Acts I and II.

AresKeith wrote...

What you seem and Xil seemed to have ignored entirely is that the abomination is the demon controlling her not Marethari.

Merrill isn't controlled by Audacity, since she refused to free it for several years. Marethari let Audacity loose, warned absolutely no one in the Sabrae clan about her actions, and then proceeded to then try to murder Merrill when the former First returns to Sundermount. I'm not certain why you're blaming Merrill for the actions of another person.

[Xilizhra]

wcholcombe wrote...

durasteel wrote...

TK514 wrote...
I concur.  As someone who supported her the entire game, it didn't even occur to me to blame her for something that clearly wasn't her fault.  It would have been a betrayal.  I didn't even realize there was a way not to kill them all until my third or fourth play through.

Honestly it was the same for me the first time, the party at the cave mouth got obliterated and we didn't return to the camp. After I discovered that I could spare them, it seemed like a no brainer that Merrill, who had been working so hard to try to help her people, would rather take the blame and be scapegoated than to butcher her clan's hunters.

If playing for fun or pure enjoyment I can get his.  But playing your character within constraints of having to make hard and painful choices tends to be more fun and fulfilling to me than metagaming for character happiness.

Not criticising your decision of subsequent play throughs, just explaining my position.

In context of the decision, the prompt is "I'll take responsibility," which doesn't come across as blaming Merrill at all.

[Cainhurst Crow]

durasteel wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
The catholic church didnt pillage that region of the world, spain did. Spain wanted more territory, as did protugal, and england, and france, and pretty much every European nation that has risen to prominence. The church got involved in drafting rules for how countries could claim land, because spain and protugal almost declared war when they both wanted the americas. Spain got the east and Protugal got the west, which was kinda a **** deal for Portugal because all they got was japan and a few other asian countires, and we know how that turned out.
Basically all the church did was negotiate a treaty to stop two European powers from killing eachother while being unaware or unconcerned with the other countries in question,  which is something that isn't anything to do with religion and everything to do with human nature.

They did a little more than that.

If Spain had just been after land and gold and wanted to colonize Peru like the Romans colonized Gaul, Incan culture and civilization might have survived. Instead, the Church demolished all the temples, burned all the Quipu, and systematically went about dismantling Incan culture. They did the same basic thing in Central America, and the Jesuits forced los indios into work camps where they were treated like slaves, all in the name of saving their heathen souls.

I'm not seeing how this has anything to do with religion. It sounds more like spain had it's own practicies and MO when conquering territory for their own use, just as rome did for the territories it conquered, and the dutch had for the lands they conquered in africa.

You have demonstrated a nations pattern, not a religious bases, otherwise japan would have been colonized and converted in a similar way since both spain and portugal were both cathloic nations.

[Cainhurst Crow]

durasteel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
She escaped, and stole the book. Your revenge came to nothing and wound up hurting the qunari more.

Alas, I have no similar answer for abuse of Merrill, as of yet. My hope is that she becomes vital to something in DAI, like Tali was in ME3, and what you've done winds up ruining a portion of your plot.

I like you.

You are officially a terrible person.

[The Hierophant]

AresKeith wrote...

I'm not surprised to see Xil defend Adrian

iirc Xil also defended the Tevinter Imperium.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rivalmance tbh. I can like her and not agree with everything she does.

May the rivalmance and those Hawkes who conducted it burn forever.

Come at me bro.