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[Steelcan]

The Hierophant wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I'm not surprised to see Xil defend Adrian

iirc Xil also defended the Tevinter Imperium.

Well who doesn't appreciate a slaving bunch of blood mages with no morals or qualms?

[The Hierophant]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

You are officially a terrible person.

If only he knew.

[Steelcan]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Rivalmance tbh. I can like her and not agree with everything she does.

May the rivalmance and those Hawkes who conducted it burn forever.

Come at me bro.

You are way too old for that and you know it

[Veruin]

Xilizhra wrote...

In context of the decision, the prompt is "I'll take responsibility," which doesn't come across as blaming Merrill at all.

If you "Take responsibility", aren't you effectively saying "Yes, this person did wrong, but I'll handle it"?

[Br3admax]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Rivalmance tbh. I can like her and not agree with everything she does.

May the rivalmance and those Hawkes who conducted it burn forever.

Come at me bro.

I agree with this statement.

[LobselVith8]

wcholcombe wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill extrapolated information from the shard and studied the lore on the Eluvians. What exactly did Marethari do to prove she knew more than Merrill, aside from jump from one baseless conclusion to another between Acts II and III? And considering that Marethari is the one who let Audacity free, I'm not going to blame Merrill for the Keeper's actions when Merrill refused to let Audacity free for years.

Marethari claimed she let Audacity free to protect Merrill, then proceeded to try to kill Merrill as an abomination. You don't see the flaw in Marethari's logic? 

Ok, so while you in the past have defended Keepers as being knowledgeable and intelligent and having the best interest of the Clan in mind.  But now a Keeper is an idiot and a child of an elf knows more than she does?

I think a learned scholar of the arcane arts who actually put an effort into understanding the Eluvians - through the shard and the lore she gathered - knows more about a subject she studied than the Keeper, who explicitly addresses that she wants to know nothing about the ancient elven technology because she thinks it's better off staying buried.

wcholcombe wrote...

No, Marethari was trying to get Merril to forget about the Eluvian forever.  Remember in DAO they were camped near an Eluvian.  Remember what happened to one of Marethari's elves?  I am going to give her the benefit of the doubt over Merril who by her own interactions demonstrates a lack of overall knowledge of anything.

Merrill already cleansed the shard. The entire reason she learned blood magic from Audacity - a trapped creature of the Beyond who was trapped in a totem and cut off from the Beyond, thereby making it impossible for it to harm anyone physically - is because she couldn't cleanse the shard with ordinary magic, because she lacked the sufficient amount of lyrium to pull off the task.

What happened in Ferelden wouldn't happen in the Free Marches because Merrill cleansed the shard, so no one would contract the taint. This is evident from how the elven ghouls had contracted the taint from the remaining shards of the Eluvian in "Witch Hunt", while Merrill is taint-free for several years in Kirkwall.

wcholcombe wrote...

Marethari wanted Merrill to leave the Eluvian alone. Merrill gained nothing by pursuing it. 

Because Marethari let Audacity loose and tried to kill Merrill as an abomination. It seems clear to me that Marethari was played for a fool by Audacity.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Steelcan wrote...
You are way too old for that and you know it

Lies! I'm young in spirit!

[AresKeith]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Yeaaaa no, Marethari let Audacity free to protect Merrill since the same thing was gonna happen to Merrill if she went to Audacity. She asked Merrill to kill her to stop the demon but Merrill didn't

Marethari let Audacity free because she thought Audacity would escape from the restored Eluvian that Merrill was building; I wonder where the Keeper would have gotten this idea from, since it's not the reason Marethari initially opposed Merrill's actions in Acts I and II.

AresKeith wrote...

What you seem and Xil seemed to have ignored entirely is that the abomination is the demon controlling her not Marethari.

Merrill isn't controlled by Audacity, since she refused to free it for several years. Marethari let Audacity loose, warned absolutely no one in the Sabrae clan about her actions, and then proceeded to then try to murder Merrill when the former First returns to Sundermount. I'm not certain why you're blaming Merrill for the actions of another person.

Because Merrill is an idiot for not listening in the first place, everything that happened was the result of her actions because Merrill thought she could handle it

I never claimed that Marethari's plan was perfect, but her reasons for doing it was to protect Merrill from the demon

[Veruin]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Lies! I'm young in spirit!

You know spirit doesn't count.

[Steelcan]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
You are way too old for that and you know it

Lies! I'm young in spirit!

But thats not what matters

[Cainhurst Crow]

eluvianix wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...
A.Rhys even at the end of the book is still harboring a known murderer in Asunder--no I am not referring to Cole.

B.Wynne going against tower law and Chantry law by not killing the Tranquil who had become an Abomination.

A. Who? Evangeline?

B. If you read, then you know that Justinia was the one who granted her permission to do all of the above, so she certainly didn't break any rules.

A. I'm betting adrian, who murdered the cured tranquil to spark civil unrest and framed rhys for it.

[Xilizhra]

iirc Xil also defended the Tevinter Imperium.

Depends on context. The slavery system is terrible.

Come at me bro.

I have literally no interest in you, aside from a baseline thing of not wanting to see humans suffer IRL. I was referring to certain sets of Hawkes.

If you "Take responsibility", aren't you effectively saying "Yes, this person did wrong, but I'll handle it"?

It can be interpreted as that, yes, but it could also be "I'm sorry for failing to keep Marethari from being possessed," or similar.

[The Hierophant]

Steelcan. Stop being intolerant of the elderly.

[LobselVith8]

OnionXI wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill extrapolated information from the shard and studied the lore on the Eluvians. What exactly did Marethari do to prove she knew more than Merrill, aside from jump from one baseless conclusion to another between Acts II and III? And considering that Marethari is the one who let Audacity free, I'm not going to blame Merrill for the Keeper's actions when Merrill refused to let Audacity free for years.

Marethari claimed she let Audacity free to protect Merrill, then proceeded to try to kill Merrill as an abomination. You don't see the flaw in Marethari's logic? 

So add Marethari to the list of stupid mages?

I don't think Marethari's solution was all that great but I have a hard time trusting Merrill to know what she's doing. Night Terrors showed that she's susceptible to pride demons. Her repeated assurances that she's in control in her dealings with the demon is pure pride. 

You're citing "Night Terrors", the quest where every single companion (except Anders) tries to murder Hawke in cold blood in a matter of seconds of a demon making them an implausible offer?

[GreyLycanTrope]

Steelcan wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
You are way too old for that and you know it

Lies! I'm young in spirit!

But thats not what matters

Oh that's what you meant. Well not I feel unclean...thanks for that.

[Steelcan]

The Hierophant wrote...

Steelcan. Stop being intolerant of the elderly.

I wish I could be more accepting of all age groups, like Xil

[wcholcombe]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]What is unjust about killing an Abomination? and seriously, your defense for Adrian killing the guys is action against tyrants? No she manipulated everyone involved and lead to the deaths of hundreds if not thousands. Completely moving past that, Rhys should have brought her up on murder charges after they all fled. She murdered a fellow mage.[/quote]
Adrian killed Pharamond because he was literally begging for it. I really don't think that's the same as murder, morally speaking; it's more like assisted suicide. The templars were going to make him Tranquil again, and the process is utterly hellish.

Murder is Murder.  Adrian could have let it play out. Demonstrated that Tranquility didn't work because it could be reveresed, demonstrated what being tranquil actually does to a person, etc She didn't kill him out of kindness.  She killed him to manipulate the situation.  It wasn't assisted suicide because she really didn't care about him.  [quote]



[quote]Granted most of the characters in DA2 were horrible, but that doesn't stop people from using the templars as examples.[/quote]
No, I mean that idiot mages aren't all that common in DA2. You have like three crazy people (Tahrone, Decimus and Quentin) and the others are possessed (including Grace). Then there's Orsino who snaps at the end, but that was wholly because of the templars.[/quote]

Sorry I disagree(not surpising I know).  Look the Templars weren't any great shakes either, but to claim Orsino only was an idiot at the end?  He harbored blood mages!  If he had just turned them in, a lot of the issues with Meredith would have been resolved and Hawkes mother would have lived.  Few if any of the Mages in DA2 were much better overall than the worst of the templars.

 [quote]
[quote]More people knew what he was planning than just those in the conspiracy[/quote]
And how do you know they even had the chance to report anything before it went into action? [/quote]
You don't suddenly study forbidden magic and know how to use it in a matter of a couple of hours.
[quote]
[quote][/quote][quote]In the same way that current Mages are largely less than ideal in their view of the world, their own responsibilities in it, etc.[/quote]
By and large, they haven't discovered any of that yet, having never been free; it'll take time to build that up. But the destruction of the templars is vital.[/quote]

They could have understood their place in the world from being in the towers. Wynne certainly understood her role and responsibility.  Rhys does at times.  Adriane doesn't have a clue. They are entirely capable of grasping the concept that with being blessed with great power they have greater responsibility and duty to the world at large than to their own personal desires.

[durasteel]

The Hierophant wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

You are officially a terrible person.

If only he knew.

I'm under no illusions in that regard.

[Cainhurst Crow]

durasteel wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

You are officially a terrible person.

If only he knew.

I'm under no illusions in that regard.

So you know who you're supporting, their past ridiculouslness, and their intollerable way of discussion that borderlines trolling, and you're okay with that?

[LobselVith8]

AresKeith wrote...

Because Merrill is an idiot for not listening in the first place, everything that happened was the result of her actions because Merrill thought she could handle it

Marethari refused to take her clan and leave Sundermount, despite the fact that Merrill explicitly notes that Marethari should have done this years ago. It's not Merrill's fault that Marethari was played by Audacity, who is likely the source of Marethari's belief that it could escape from a restored Eluvian (which is unlikely, given what Morrigan says about the Eluvians leading to a place "beyond this world, and beyond the Fade").

AresKeith wrote...

I never claimed that Marethari's plan was perfect, but her reasons for doing it was to protect Merrill from the demon

You don't protect someone from a creature of the Beyond by setting it free, letting it possess you, and then trying to kill the person you wanted to keep safe.

[Xilizhra]

Murder is Murder. Adrian could have let it play out. Demonstrated that Tranquility didn't work because it could be reveresed, demonstrated what being tranquil actually does to a person, etc She didn't kill him out of kindness. She killed him to manipulate the situation. It wasn't assisted suicide because she really didn't care about him.

None of that would have helped. The templars already knew it could be reversed, as did the other mages; Wynne spread it around already. And the templars both know and don't care what Tranquility does. Nothing else would have worked.

Sorry I disagree(not surpising I know). Look the Templars weren't any great shakes either, but to claim Orsino only was an idiot at the end? He harbored blood mages! If he had just turned them in, a lot of the issues with Meredith would have been resolved and Hawkes mother would have lived. Few if any of the Mages in DA2 were much better overall than the worst of the templars.

Yes, Orsino was an idiot only at the end. His coverup of Quentin was solely to prevent Meredith from retaliating on the Circle as a whole; it would have been far bloodier than Quentin's conquests. And Meredith would have clamped down no matter what with the viscount down and the chance to seize ultimate power open.

You don't suddenly study forbidden magic and know how to use it in a matter of a couple of hours.

The ones who studied it were part of the conspiracy. However, even non-blood mages got possessed, and it's on the bodies of those fallen abominations that we get those letters that I think you're referring to.

They could have understood their place in the world from being in the towers. Wynne certainly understood her role and responsibility. Rhys does at times. Adriane doesn't have a clue. They are entirely capable of grasping the concept that with being blessed with great power they have greater responsibility and duty to the world at large than to their own personal desires.

Their responsibility is not and hasnever been to their jailers or the viciously magophobic religion that fosters them. If they have a duty to sapient life as a whole, it's unable to be legitimately fulfilled while they're being crushed by the templars, and they must be destroyed for the mages to be able to actually fulfill any of this.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Xilizhra wrote...

Come at me bro.

I have literally no interest in you, aside from a baseline thing of not wanting to see humans suffer IRL. I was referring to certain sets of Hawkes.

>Not wanting to see humans suffer
>burn forever

GG.

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

Depends on context. The slavery system is terrible.

Slavery isn't Tevinter's only problem. If someone doesn't approve of people being discriminated against and barred from positions power based on their birth and doesn't approve of a caste system, then what's there to defend?

[Xilizhra]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Come at me bro.

I have literally no interest in you, aside from a baseline thing of not wanting to see humans suffer IRL. I was referring to certain sets of Hawkes.

>Not wanting to see humans suffer
>burn forever

GG.

If you'll be kind enough to read the full quote, it was "not wanting to see humans suffer IRL."

Slavery isn't Tevinter's only problem. If someone doesn't approve of
people being discriminated against and barred from positions power based
on their birth and doesn't approve of a caste system, then what's there
to defend?

Precisely my complaint with the templars. They're mirrors of each other.

I'm fairly sure what I defended was their vast store of magical knowledge that shouldn't be destroyed.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 20 février 2014 - 06:58 .

[Steelcan]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Come at me bro.

I have literally no interest in you, aside from a baseline thing of not wanting to see humans suffer IRL. I was referring to certain sets of Hawkes.

>Not wanting to see humans suffer
>burn forever

GG.

Keepbin mind who you are talking to

logic isn't all that necessary for her