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[dragonflight288]

I think most people also completely miss that Merrill has a very sarcastic sense of humor and completely miss her being sarcastic and instead mistake that for innocence or stupidity.

Like when she tells Anders that a Dalish party wouldn't be complete without the human sacrifice, and Anders is all "Really?" sounding a little creeped out when Merrill flat out states "No."

[TK514]

dragonflight288 wrote...

She is probably one of the most knowledgable people we meet in the game when it comes to spirits and the Fade. Add in that people who use her falling to the Pride demon in Feynriel's dream often overlook her apology later, and how she learned her lesson. And her explanation that she, and everyone else who explains why they betrayed Hawke, lost control. They couldn't control themselves. The demons were mind controlling them to a certain extent. 

I don't think this is a lesson that can be learned.  Sure, she regrets it after the fact, but I suspect that were she placed back in a similar situation again, the results would be the same.  And I say that because I agree with you that there was mind control involved.  The Pride Demon got in her head and cranked her 'I know better than everyone else' dial to 11, more or less.

[Steelcan]

How the Templars never caught onto her is truly a travesty, the templars in Kirkwall must be stupider than the mages there....

[shit's fucked cunts]

AresKeith wrote...

Zazzerka wrote...

Merrill is intelligent; she just has a mad sense of humour. We could obviously beat those guards, so ruining the "fire" trick was inconsequential.

Go home Zazz you're drunk

Yeah, but my points are still valid. I'm valid.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Zazzerka wrote...

Merrill is intelligent; she just has a mad sense of humour. We could obviously beat those guards, so ruining the "fire" trick was inconsequential.

Socially inpet is Merrill all over. Part of the charm really.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 20 février 2014 - 07:15 .

[shit's fucked cunts]

Merrill is smarter than you think, like Yogi B. Bear.

Smarter than the average elf.

[Xilizhra]

The Hierophant wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Slavery isn't Tevinter's only problem. If someone doesn't approve of people being discriminated against and barred from positions power based on their birth and doesn't approve of a caste system, then what's there to defend?

Precisely my complaint with the templars. They're mirrors of each other.

I'm fairly sure what I defended was their vast store of magical knowledge that shouldn't be destroyed.

So this is an admission that you defend a peerless tyranical regime who employs discriminatory policies that you decried in others because they have magic?

If so, i see nothing wrong. Carry on.

Sorry, that may have been inexact. What I said was that the knowledge itself shouldn't be destroyed; sure, the regime should be taken out, but I don't want their libraries burned or anything.

Although, given the comparative military strength of Tevinter and the qunari, we should probably deal with the qunari first.

[AresKeith]

Steelcan wrote...

How the Templars never caught onto her is truly a travesty, the templars in Kirkwall must be stupider than the mages there....

I dunno, still think the Mages are dumber

You remember the battle in the Gallows right? 

[Veruin]

Nefla wrote...

Either she's pants on-head-retarded, or she's the kind of person who lets someone get mugged without stepping in, doesn't care about costing a friend (Varric) tons of money because she wants to frolic around the streets alone at night, intentionally messes up her friend's plan to get into a warehouse without killing people ("but there's not REALLY a fire is there? Hurdur"), etc...

Sums Merrill up pretty well.

I should add on that she also costs Varric money to pay off the gardeners when she frolics in the Nobles' Gardens.

Modifié par Veruin, 20 février 2014 - 07:19 .

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


Her mentor got herself possessed and the clan chose to attack of their own accord. Merrill's decisions do not predetermine the decisions of others.

Her decisions are what got Marethari possessed because she stupidly messed with demons, thats like lesson one in the Circle, don't mess with demons it bites you in the ass.

She did not summon a demon to force it to possess Marethari, so this denial of responsibility doesn't really work.

She summoned a demon and guess what?  It backfired, spectacularly

[LobselVith8]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

An intelligent mage who shows her proficiency with magic across several years, is able to identify whether a person is possessed or not, refuses to abuse her blood magic abilities, and is willing to protect men, women, and children from genocide (even if it means she'll die in the process) is an example for the Chantry controlled Circles?

I respectfully disagree.

Yes person who was puppet for pride demon twice and was very intelligent she was one of the dumbest characters we saw in da universe her plot armor was only thing that was preventing her from becoming abomnation...

You mean "Night Terrors", the quest where everyone is railroaded into betraying Hawke by the demands of the Plot? That's your grand example of Merrill's failure - a story where everyone but Anders tries to murder Hawke in a matter of seconds?

Are we also going to condemn Cullen as an idiot because he handwaves Hawke's warning about Anders' plot against the Chantry when the ex-Grey Warden is standing right next to him, as seen here?

[His Name was HYR!!]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

To be fair, Merrill did take a precaution of sorts by having Hawke accompany her.

If she was possessed, she could be slain then and there, by someone who has slain Pride Demons before.

Though the fact remains that she would have been possessed had Marethari not figured out the demon's plan (unlike Merrill) and predicted Merrill would take the bait. So YES, Merrill is very much an example of what Templars are worried about.

page'd!

[Xilizhra]

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


Her mentor got herself possessed and the clan chose to attack of their own accord. Merrill's decisions do not predetermine the decisions of others.

Her decisions are what got Marethari possessed because she stupidly messed with demons, thats like lesson one in the Circle, don't mess with demons it bites you in the ass.

She did not summon a demon to force it to possess Marethari, so this denial of responsibility doesn't really work.

She summoned a demon and guess what?  It backfired, spectacularly

Er, no she didn't. She spoke to a bound one, which taught her blood magic that let her cleanse darkspawn taint from an object; the very knowledge that that's possible should be a huge innovation for the Grey Wardens and they should get on it ASAP.  She never summoned it out of the idol.

[Steelcan]

wcholcombe wrote...

She is considered dumb by her own clan.

And if the Dalish are calling you an idiot you should probably rethink your life, these guys can't even figure out to not go extinct

[dragonflight288]

TK514 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

She is probably one of the most knowledgable people we meet in the game when it comes to spirits and the Fade. Add in that people who use her falling to the Pride demon in Feynriel's dream often overlook her apology later, and how she learned her lesson. And her explanation that she, and everyone else who explains why they betrayed Hawke, lost control. They couldn't control themselves. The demons were mind controlling them to a certain extent. 

I don't think this is a lesson that can be learned.  Sure, she regrets it after the fact, but I suspect that were she placed back in a similar situation again, the results would be the same.  And I say that because I agree with you that there was mind control involved.  The Pride Demon got in her head and cranked her 'I know better than everyone else' dial to 11, more or less.

I've debated this topic quite vigorously in the past. I even had a PM conversation about it once. I'm going to track that conversation down and quote myself as that argument took me two hours to write, covers a whole bunch of in-game evidence, my first playthrough impressions which had no metagaming knowledge whatsoever, my reasoning, and so on. 

Rather than repeat myself and waste a lot of time typing out arguments I've made in the past, if you could just hold a moment and I'll have a nice long rebuttal in a few minutes of searching. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

Didn't merril listen to the demon in the first place on what the eluvian would do and how to fix it? If she had just not gone to the demons prison, maybe she and everyone else would be alive. As it stands, she made a contract with the demon in the prison to learn how to fix the eluvian with, surprise surprise, blood magic, the art that demons use to ensnare their victims into their service. Which is incidently why the clan doesn't trust her, because she uses forbidden magic that the dalish do not approve of in the slightest (the same art that kept them in chains and under tevinters boot).

I suspect that had she completed the mirror, it would have acted as a bridge to let the demon take her body by using the gifts it'd given her as a focusing point. Marethari beat it to it and forced the demon to take her older and weaker body instead, which is probably the only reason it was so easy to defeat.

Had it gotten into a young and very powerful body like merril's, I suspect the battle would be much harder to win.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 20 février 2014 - 07:20 .

[KaiserShep]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Is that why hawke had to remind her that Marethari was possessed?

Well, to be fair, Hawke didn't really have to.

[LobselVith8]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

An intelligent mage who shows her proficiency with magic across several years, is able to identify whether a person is possessed or not, refuses to abuse her blood magic abilities, and is willing to protect men, women, and children from genocide (even if it means she'll die in the process) is an example for the Chantry controlled Circles?

I respectfully disagree. 

Is that why hawke had to remind her that Marethari was possessed? 

You mean how the Champion had to remind Merrill that she needed to kill the person who was basically her surrogate mother since she was a small child?

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


Her mentor got herself possessed and the clan chose to attack of their own accord. Merrill's decisions do not predetermine the decisions of others.

Her decisions are what got Marethari possessed because she stupidly messed with demons, thats like lesson one in the Circle, don't mess with demons it bites you in the ass.

She did not summon a demon to force it to possess Marethari, so this denial of responsibility doesn't really work.

She summoned a demon and guess what?  It backfired, spectacularly

Er, no she didn't. She spoke to a bound one, which taught her blood magic that let her cleanse darkspawn taint from an object; the very knowledge that that's possible should be a huge innovation for the Grey Wardens and they should get on it ASAP.  She never summoned it out of the idol.

Potato potato

She consorted with demons and dealed with them, the Right of Annulment should be passed on all Dalish clans (yes I am aware thats not how it works) just to make sure she didn't spread her stupidity

[durasteel]

Steelcan wrote...

She summoned a demon and guess what?  It backfired, spectacularly

No, the demon had been trapped there for millenia. She just talked to it, carefully, without setting it free.

[AresKeith]

KaiserShep wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Is that why hawke had to remind her that Marethari was possessed?

Well, to be fair, Hawke didn't really have to.

If Hawke didn't, Merrill gets stabbed because she fell for it

[dragonflight288]

Okay, here's me quoting myself from a few years ago when I talked about this in a PM conversation.

dragonflight288 PMed.....


My opinion is pretty simple. The Dalish elves are self-righteous and arrogant. They and the chantry both are responsible for the sacking of the Dales...although I blame the chantry more than I do the elves...a lot more. Both sides hide their dirty laundry after all.

When I play as a Dalish warden or talk to the Dalish as an outsider, I see the dalish having a threefold mission.

The first is the restoration of Arlathan and everything associated with it. This means the revival of the language, the culture, the gods, the knowledge, and the technology. So that means magical knowledge, like the eluvians, blood magic, arcane warriors, in addition to the technology a crafter can supply his people.

The second is to restore their homeland. Which means finding a land to call home. Set up their findings, each clan learning all they can from the others as one clan may find information another lacks.

The third is teaching the lost ones...the city elves, the old ways.

Essentially they want to rebuild their empire and unite the elves.

Now moving on to Merrill, Merethari, and the dalish elves near Kirkwall. They had just escaped the blight and are camping dangerously close to Kirkwall and its templars. The clan knows that the Keeper has a debt to pay to Ashbelennar (Flemeth) so they expect to stay there for Hawke to show up. Only they were expecting an elf, as the watch outright admits.

While they are there, Merrill and Merethari encounter a demon sealed within a statue. Merethari refuses to even listen to it, while Merrill is more open. Both are knowledgeable about the Fade and the dangers of consorting with demons. Merrill is also holding a piece of the eluvian, likely stashed safely away because of the corruption from the darkspawn.

She learns blood magic from the demon and how to purify the tainted shard. The fact that she stays in close proximity to the shard for over a decade without becoming tainted, or tainting anyone around her is proof that she succeeded.

Merrill uses her blood magic very carefully, only believing in herself when dealing with demons, taking their knowledge as they offer it, but not their deals.

Merethari fears the darkspawn taint, having lost two hunters to the eluvian before it was potentially destroyed by Duncan. She is also afraid of blood magic and what it may lead Merrill too.

So the first time that Hawke meets the Dalish, only a few are suspicious of Merrill, but some, like the crafter mourn her leaving. Merethari even tells Merrill it's not too late to reconsider her path.

On my first playthrough, I'm just wearing a blank look with question marks in my eyes. So I decide to see what's happening as the game progresses.

We come to act 2, and I see the city-born Pol running from Merrill, even more terrified of her than he is of the Varterral. I am absolutely shocked by that happening.

When we get back to camp, Merethari admits she told the clan that Merrill could bring back the taint and that she was a blood mage...then had the audacity to ask her to return. I literally face-palmed at that.

Pol was city-born, and when he greets Hawke, he's all "Praise Andras....the CREATORS!" leading me to believe he was still a believer in the chantry, but didn't want to return to the alienage. So his views are colored by andrastian beliefs regarding blood magic.

But the very moment he ran to his death rather than be rescued by Merrill, I felt it was too late for Merrill to return to the clan, as they all now hated her guts and distrusted her, based entirely on Merethari's opinion, which has no evidence supporting it.

For one thing, Merrill does not control anyone's mind throughout the game, she does not get the taint, or infect anyone else with it. And in Witch Hunt, elves who had gone into that ruin with the eluvian were corrupted by the taint, so we prove that Merrill succeeded in purifying it.

We also have a clear distinction concerning their differing opinions on the eluvian. Merrill is constantly researching a scrap of lore, using a single shard, and is in the process of rebuilding an eluvian from scratch. Merethari believes that such knowledge belongs to another time and should be left well enough alone. She doesn't even want to touch the lore saying it is far too dangerous. She even tries to renege on her deal with Merrill.

Merrill asks for the tool in Act 2, and Merethari says she'll give it to her in exchange for defeating the Varterral. Well, we defeat the varterral but she gives the tool to Hawke and asks he/she NOT give it to Merrill. She broke her deal, and an important dalish rite invoked by Merrill.

In Act 3, the Dalish are pretty fed up with Kirkwall. They want to leave, but have no Halla. They are fed up with Merethari who is keeping them there as she is constantly asking Merrill to return. And because Merrill is a blood mage and may bring back the taint, she becomes an easy target for their hatred and malcontent, to the point that they refuse to even listen to an opinion that isn't theirs.

Granted, the dalish generally do that regardless of Merrill, and the Chantry...and every other culture. Getting off track.

Merrill, knowledgeable about the eluvians, having done a butt load of research and hard work into rebuilding the mirror, is at a dead end. She doesn't know enough to complete it. She recognizes the demon does. She asks Hawke to accompany her up...and should the worst come to pass, kill her.

Up to this point, I have a pretty clear idea of what's going on. Merrill is discovering the lost knowledge, she is trying to rebuild a very large part of the Dalish heritage (and even if they only manage the long distance communication, that would benefit all the clans and the people as a whole). She invoked the rite to obtain a tool, and honored her end of the bargain.

Merethari on the other hand, was doing nothing to help the clan leave. She stuck around asking Merrill to return to a clan that hated her...courtesy of Merethari warning them of blood magic and the taint. She tried to break the deal with Merrill, and she didn't research or even look into any lore on eluvians.

What it came down to for me was simple. Merrill is a world authority of Eluvians, possibly only Morrigan surpassing her in knowledge for getting one started. She is working at a goal to benefit her people worldwide, she is restoring a part of their heritage. Merrill was following the mission of the Dalish.

Merethari was thinking too much like a mother and less a keeper. I don't doubt she cared for Merrill, but I doubt her (un)common sense. She and the Dalish had an opinion, and no amount of evidence would change it.

And since I didn't warn Merethari that Merrill was planning on dealing with the demon, that means that Merethari had become an abomination BEFORE we showed up at the camp. Which means that she believed so much that her way was the right way that she put her entire clan at risk because she couldn't even consider she was wrong about the eluvian.

Merrill says when we first meet her than when a Keeper becomes an abomination, it is the clan's duty to kill him or her.

We show up at the cave, and Merethari reveals herself as an abomination. She says the demon planned to escape from the eluvian and Merrill would be the first victim, so she (Merethari) willingly paid the price she feared Merrill would pay.

Again, I facepalmed. Someone who has steadfastly avoided dealing with demons, wouldn't listen to what they say, didn't do ANY research at all eluvians, she seemed to assume a lot. And she was so self-righteous that she wouldn't even consider that Merrill could be correct...and she practically abandoned her duty as a Keeper because of Merrill.

So we have to kill Merethari, and therein any chance of completing the Eluvian because a leader without any facts but a very strong opinion felt her way was the best way.

After we leave the cave, we are confronted by the dalish elves. They didn't know that Merethari was an abomination, so that shows me that Merethari thought it fit to warn them about Merrill but not about herself. And when we tell them that Merethari was an abomination, they, having spent a decade blaming Merrill for them staying there, Pol's death, fearing her because she was a blood mage and could potentially bring back the darkspawn taint.

And having spent so long blaming Merrill, they won't even consider that Merethari made her own choices, that Merrill did the duty of the clan by killing an abomination. All they see is Merrill driving Merethari to desperation...despite the fact that Merrill left the clan roughly a decade earlier and no longer had any claim to them.

They are angry, prejudiced against Hawke as a shemlen, prejudiced against Merrill as a blood mage, afraid of the taint, that they won't even consider the fact that Merrill is helping her people. We are forced to kill them, because I won't take responsibility for Merrill when Merethari was also a completely rational adult who could make her own decisions.

They attack en mass because of hatred and self-righteousness. There is no way they can be in the wrong, it has to be all their fault, the shemlen and the outcast.

Essentially Merrill was accomplishing what Dalish are supposed to do, and she was hated because of it.

Merethari was not doing her duty, unwittingly sowed the seeds of hatred and distrust, because she was thinking more of a witless mother with no long-term plan. In addition to her endangering the clan by becoming an abomination without warning anyone, and abandoning the mission of the dalish by denying any research into the eluvian, and breaking her deal with merrill in act 2.

That's essentially my rant about Merrill and the Dalish. I always romance Merrill as well. She's just so dang cute and intelligent...just naive. Of course, she seems much more sarcastic later in the game than innocently naive. Another trait I like because she pulls it off well.

[Veruin]

AresKeith wrote...

If Hawke didn't, Merrill gets stabbed because she fell for it

It's a shame it wasn't a murder knife Marethari had.

[Cainhurst Crow]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

An intelligent mage who shows her proficiency with magic across several years, is able to identify whether a person is possessed or not, refuses to abuse her blood magic abilities, and is willing to protect men, women, and children from genocide (even if it means she'll die in the process) is an example for the Chantry controlled Circles?

I respectfully disagree. 

Is that why hawke had to remind her that Marethari was possessed? 

You mean how the Champion had to remind Merrill that she needed to kill the person who was basically her surrogate mother since she was a small child?

Yeah. Like having to remind someone that the decomposing corpse shambling over and asking for brains isn't a persons love one anymore in all those zombie films. Or as I cal it, a dumb cliche.

If she can sense demonic possession as well as you say she can, she shouldn't have had a moment of doubt at all. There should have been no time for a dialouge option. Just walk up and stab the demon and be done with it. Why hesitate when there was no hesitation to attack her in her giant pride demon form?

[LobselVith8]

Steelcan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The clan dies if they try to commit cold-blooded murder.
Merrill has culture shock in human civilization, but I've often seen people consider newcomers to a different society as dumb for not instantly understanding an entirely different culture. Merrill demonstrates her intellect time and again throughout the narrative, from her mastery of magic (and blood magic) to her ability to identify if Kerran is possessed and the nature of the Profane Abomination.

The clan dies if they try to avenge the death of their keeper at the hands of a dittering moron.

The clan tries to murder Merrill if Hawke reveals that the Keeper was possessed, or if the Champion cautions them against trying to commit cold-blooded murder.

Steelcan wrote...

Yes her mastery of getting other people possessed.... She is an inspiration to us all 

Unless you're arguing that Marethari had no free will of her own, this comment makes absolutely no sense.