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[Cainhurst Crow]

durasteel wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

She summoned a demon and guess what?  It backfired, spectacularly

No, the demon had been trapped there for millenia. She just talked to it, carefully, without setting it free.

Well to be fair she didn't summon it per say. More like created a hole that it could have escaped from, had Marethari not pre-emptively sacrificed herself for the person she considered a daughter.

So that douchebags like you could call her an idiot for her sacrifice and claim merril would have been fine when all indications point to the opposite. She would have been in her home, alone, unprepared, and would have been swiftly possessed.

[TheKomandorShepard]

LobselVith8 wrote...


You mean "Night Terrors", the quest where everyone is railroaded into betraying Hawke by the demands of the Plot? That's your grand example of Merrill's failure - a story where everyone but Anders tries to murder Hawke in a matter of seconds?

Are we also going to condemn Cullen as an idiot because he handwaves Hawke's warning about Anders' plot against the Chantry when the ex-Grey Warden is standing right next to him, as seen here?

Simple only merril was mage who should have trening and wasn't capable protect herself against demons twice... every other companion didn't had any experience against demons or very little as they were no mages so they don't have to worry about demons so thats understandable merril is a mage person who should deal with that stuff every day of her life.... she is dumb many times proved that and you can't even push it on different social standards...

So what that anders try to kill us i mean not that he is stable and just another example that templars are right that mages should be treated as they are and even worse because it doesn't work...

And yes cullen is an idiot as well but far far years beyond merrill stupidity level because he have brain unlike merril

merril is horrible example when devs try make joke character serious character...

[LobselVith8]

Veruin wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill has culture shock in human civilization, but I've often seen people consider newcomers to a different society as dumb for not instantly understanding an entirely different culture. Merrill demonstrates her intellect time and again throughout the narrative, from her mastery of magic (and blood magic) to her ability to identify if Kerran is possessed and the nature of the Profane Abomination.

Culture shock is only a valid excuse for the first year she's there. 

We see her intelligence over and over again, and it's not as though Kirkwall is remotely similar to the Dalish clans. There's also her humor, which some people take seriously. Merrill has a very dry sense of humor, I admit. It's why, sometimes, the companions don't know when she's joking:

Anders: Do the Dalish ever have fancy parties? I always imagined they celebrated most big occasions by eating mushrooms and acorns. And maybe dancing naked around a campfire.

Merrill: You know, I was wondering when the naked dancing was going to start. And the human sacrifice. I mean, you just can't throw a decent party without kidnapping a human child and offering her entrails to the sky gods.

Anders: Really?

Merrill: No.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 20 février 2014 - 07:26 .

[dragonflight288]

Yes her mastery of getting other people possessed.... She is an inspiration to us all

I suppose you'll also blame her for Orsino going nuts and becoming a Harvester? Or blame her for Meredith purchasing the lyrium idol from Bartrand? Or even Zathrian creating Witherfang?

Let's remove all accountability from other characters blame it all on Merrill. That makes perfect sense right?
EDIT: It's not like they're all adults who can think for themselves, but are merely children that must obey the Grand Merrill. 

Modifié par dragonflight288, 20 février 2014 - 07:26 .

[Master Warder Z_]

leaguer of one wrote...

durasteel wrote...

Some consider a mage that looks out the window and wishes he could go for a walk to be an extremist.

Those happen to be lyrium addled Templars.

They happen to be doing their Maker given duty.

And When Mages stop atop "lol insane blood magic" perhaps they will be in a position to talk.

[LobselVith8]

wcholcombe wrote...

She is considered dumb by her own clan.

The Sabrae clan considers Merrill dangerous, because Marethari mentions she's cautioned them all against Merrill, and then tries to use that to coerce the former First back into the clan.

[dragonflight288]

LobselVith8 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

She is considered dumb by her own clan.

The Sabrae clan considers Merrill dangerous, because Marethari mentions she's cautioned them all against Merrill, and then tries to use that to coerce the former First back into the clan.

Add in that they weren't cautious of her blood magic, well save the Andrastian raised Pol, but were terrified that she would bring back the taint the plauged the original eluvian, despite all the lack of evidence to support such an assertion.

Add in that no one in her clan, not one person, ever says she's stupid. They're afraid of her, as Lobsel said.

[TheKomandorShepard]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Yes her mastery of getting other people possessed.... She is an inspiration to us all

I suppose you'll also blame her for Orsino going nuts and becoming a Harvester? Or blame her for Meredith purchasing the lyrium idol from Bartrand? Or even Zathrian creating Witherfang?

Let's remove all accountability from other characters blame it all on Merrill. That makes perfect sense right?

Yes every all examples knew what they are doing orsino was mad and corrupted , meredith fanatical and arrogant and zathrian was blind vengeful pr*** that let suffer peoples that weren't involved in that what they did to his family...

Merril was dumb and arrogant and others said striaght that it will have unplesant consequences she refused to belive that our actions have consequences not ignored just refused to belive she got what she was working for and unlike other 3 characters above she was warned she just ignored that in her stupidity...

[durasteel]

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill didn't have to listen to Marethari; she did extensive research on the Eluvian, and sought to create her own. Marethari's refusal to accept Merrill's decision, and her dangerous actions that followed, don't condemn Merrill.

And look where that got her

GG Merrill

So to apply your standard here by analogy, let's say you get some kind of surface injury, like a burn. Assume you have enough knowledge to understand the importance of keeping the wound disinfected. Because of reasons, the only disinfectant you can find is a bottle of vodka.

Now, your uncle is not a clever man, and he starts going on and on about how alcohol is just a terrible thing, that you'll become an alcoholic, and tries to get you to throw it away. He doesn't want to hear about medicinal uses.

He concludes that you will drink yourselfto death with this bottle of vodka, because he thinks your an idiot. So, he swipes your bottle of vodka and drinks it all to protect you from it. Then, he dies of alcohol poisoning.

By your reasoning, you're responsible for his death. You were just too dumb to listen to your uncle, right?

[Master Warder Z_]

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...


DAO codex on the Magisters.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Magister

It's mentioned on the page in the "triva" section.

Ok...Your right... But I see another intersting statement in the sodex on Lyrium...
[color=rgb(213, 212, 212)">Lyrium has its costs, however. Prolonged use becomes addictive, the cravings unbearable. Over time, templars grow disoriented, incapable of distinguishing memory from present, or dream from waking. They frequently become paranoid as their worst memories and nightmares haunt their waking hours. Mages have additionally been known to suffer physical mutation: The ] lords of the Tevinter Imperium were widely reputed to have been so affected by their years of lyrium use that they could not be recognized by their own kin, nor even as creatures that had once been human.[/color]

Now we don't see the mutations in the circle. It's clear they control it's injestion...But the tempars have become more and more Paranoid....

Glad to know your opinion on the written Lore.

Doesn't change my opinion of it, nor does your input on it obviously.

Lyrium Deranged mages certainly does make sense, in so far as them randomly going insane anyway.

[dragonflight288]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Yes her mastery of getting other people possessed.... She is an inspiration to us all

I suppose you'll also blame her for Orsino going nuts and becoming a Harvester? Or blame her for Meredith purchasing the lyrium idol from Bartrand? Or even Zathrian creating Witherfang?

Let's remove all accountability from other characters blame it all on Merrill. That makes perfect sense right?

Yes every all examples knew what they are doing orsino was mad and corrupted , meredith fanatical and arrogant and zathrian was blind vengeful pr*** that let suffer peoples that weren't involved in that what they did to his family...

Merril was dumb and arrogant and others said striaght that it will have unplesant consequences she refused to belive that our actions have consequences not ignored just refused to belive she got what she was working for and unlike other 3 characters above she was warned she just ignored that in her stupidity...

This arument makes just as much sense as blaming Alrik or Meredith for all the problems in the templars of Kirkwall, or laying all the blame on Elthina for not taking a stand or whatever.

It's overly simplisitic, ignores a whole host of variables, downplays Merrill as a character and is an argument that sounds like it's made out of ignorance. 

[LobselVith8]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

To be fair, Merrill did take a precaution of sorts by having Hawke accompany her.

If she was possessed, she could be slain then and there, by someone who has slain Pride Demons before.

Though the fact remains that she would have been possessed had Marethari not figured out the demon's plan (unlike Merrill) and predicted Merrill would take the bait. So YES, Merrill is very much an example of what Templars are worried about.

The only evidence that we have for Audacity getting free through the Eluvian is Marethari, and the only likely source for her information is Audacity, who she set free as a result of her thinking this was true.

I hardly think Merrill is an example that proves the Chantry controlled Circles correct, especially when she tells an aggressive Hawke that she won't free Audacity.

[dragonflight288]

LobselVith8 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

To be fair, Merrill did take a precaution of sorts by having Hawke accompany her.

If she was possessed, she could be slain then and there, by someone who has slain Pride Demons before.

Though the fact remains that she would have been possessed had Marethari not figured out the demon's plan (unlike Merrill) and predicted Merrill would take the bait. So YES, Merrill is very much an example of what Templars are worried about.

The only evidence that we have for Audacity getting free through the Eluvian is Marethari, and the only likely source for her information is Audacity, who she set free as a result of her thinking this was true.

I hardly think Merrill is an example that proves the Chantry controlled Circles correct, especially when she tells an aggressive Hawke that she won't free Audacity.

And lives for almost a decade without the Circle controlling her without hurting anyone, controlling anyone via blood magic or becoming an abomination.

She sort of, well, defies all Chantry expectations of free mages. 

[LobselVith8]

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill didn't have to listen to Marethari; she did extensive research on the Eluvian, and sought to create her own. Marethari's refusal to accept Merrill's decision, and her dangerous actions that followed, don't condemn Merrill.

And look where that got her
GG Merrill 

It got Merrill building an Eluvian from the lore she gathered, and the information that she managed to extrapolate from the shard, while Marethari made one mistake after another, from trying to bully Merrill into coming back to the clan by vilifying her to everyone, and then letting Audacity loose because she thought it could escape from a restored Eluvian. Why some people blame Merrill for Marethari's mistakes is something I'll never understand, because it makes absolutely no sense.

[AresKeith]

durasteel wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill didn't have to listen to Marethari; she did extensive research on the Eluvian, and sought to create her own. Marethari's refusal to accept Merrill's decision, and her dangerous actions that followed, don't condemn Merrill.

And look where that got her

GG Merrill

So to apply your standard here by analogy, let's say you get some kind of surface injury, like a burn. Assume you have enough knowledge to understand the importance of keeping the wound disinfected. Because of reasons, the only disinfectant you can find is a bottle of vodka.

Now, your uncle is not a clever man, and he starts going on and on about how alcohol is just a terrible thing, that you'll become an alcoholic, and tries to get you to throw it away. He doesn't want to hear about medicinal uses.

He concludes that you will drink yourselfto death with this bottle of vodka, because he thinks your an idiot. So, he swipes your bottle of vodka and drinks it all to protect you from it. Then, he dies of alcohol poisoning.

By your reasoning, you're responsible for his death. You were just too dumb to listen to your uncle, right?

Not enough facepalms for this post 

[TheKomandorShepard]

dragonflight288 wrote...


This arument makes just as much sense as blaming Alrik or Meredith for all the problems in the templars of Kirkwall, or laying all the blame on Elthina for not taking a stand or whatever.

It's overly simplisitic, ignores a whole host of variables, downplays Merrill as a character and is an argument that sounds like it's made out of ignorance. 

Well they were fault of their doom and kirkwall fate as well... elthina had her end coming as well and she got what she was working for...

As i said merrill fate was mostly her creation and her stupidity others warned her like hawke or keeper as well other companions she ignored that and she paid price because of that as well like meredith for buying idol or zathrian by creating curse... 

Simple all of that peoples choose to path to their doom and misery not others

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 20 février 2014 - 07:40 .

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

To be fair, Merrill did take a precaution of sorts by having Hawke accompany her.

If she was possessed, she could be slain then and there, by someone who has slain Pride Demons before.

Though the fact remains that she would have been possessed had Marethari not figured out the demon's plan (unlike Merrill) and predicted Merrill would take the bait. So YES, Merrill is very much an example of what Templars are worried about.

The only evidence that we have for Audacity getting free through the Eluvian is Marethari, and the only likely source for her information is Audacity, who she set free as a result of her thinking this was true.

I hardly think Merrill is an example that proves the Chantry controlled Circles correct, especially when she tells an aggressive Hawke that she won't free Audacity.

But she is also bringing Hawke along just in case if she is corrupted and does fall pray to Demonic suggestion.

Rendering the entire situation moot personally considering that when the mage in question admits that via her actions i personally stop thinking about the issue right there.


So rogue dumb demon summoning blood mages are...well hardly better then their circle counterparts. Just more lanky, not that it saves her ;o Hawke already had a lanky elf.

[dragonflight288]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill didn't have to listen to Marethari; she did extensive research on the Eluvian, and sought to create her own. Marethari's refusal to accept Merrill's decision, and her dangerous actions that followed, don't condemn Merrill.

And look where that got her
GG Merrill 

It got Merrill building an Eluvian from the lore she gathered, and the information that she managed to extrapolate from the shard, while Marethari made one mistake after another, from trying to bully Merrill into coming back to the clan by vilifying her to everyone, and then letting Audacity loose because she thought it could escape from a restored Eluvian. Why some people blame Merrill for Marethari's mistakes is something I'll never understand, because it makes absolutely no sense.

I agree. 

[durasteel]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
So that douchebags like you could call her an idiot for her sacrifice and claim merril would have been fine when all indications point to the opposite. She would have been in her home, alone, unprepared, and would have been swiftly possessed.

"All indications" point to Merrill being cautious and having someone like Hawke to back her up in a dangerous situation.

The bottom line is that Marethari was dishonest about Merril and to Merrill, and consistently showed not only a lack of understanding about the eluvian but an unwillingness to understand it.  Ultimately rather than sharing the information she did have, she chose not to confide in and trust Merrill but rather to remove the risk of a possession by guaranteeing a possession.

If calling that "idiocy" makes me a douchebag, well... better than being a ******, I suppose.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill didn't have to listen to Marethari; she did extensive research on the Eluvian, and sought to create her own. Marethari's refusal to accept Merrill's decision, and her dangerous actions that followed, don't condemn Merrill.

And look where that got her
GG Merrill 

It got Merrill building an Eluvian from the lore she gathered, and the information that she managed to extrapolate from the shard, while Marethari made one mistake after another, from trying to bully Merrill into coming back to the clan by vilifying her to everyone, and then letting Audacity loose because she thought it could escape from a restored Eluvian. Why some people blame Merrill for Marethari's mistakes is something I'll never understand, because it makes absolutely no sense.

Makes about as much sense as her idiotic obbession that resulted in her clan vilifying her and usage of blood magic with out expecting the price of such knowledge to be called upon eventually.

She admitted it herself, everything with Demons is deals and yet magically that same principle doesn't apply to herself?

That said i blame the blood mage for what she did personally; More then enough reason to consider her dumb, morally lax and pretty sociopathic just from that.

[AresKeith]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill didn't have to listen to Marethari; she did extensive research on the Eluvian, and sought to create her own. Marethari's refusal to accept Merrill's decision, and her dangerous actions that followed, don't condemn Merrill.

And look where that got her
GG Merrill 

It got Merrill building an Eluvian from the lore she gathered, and the information that she managed to extrapolate from the shard, while Marethari made one mistake after another, from trying to bully Merrill into coming back to the clan by vilifying her to everyone, and then letting Audacity loose because she thought it could escape from a restored Eluvian. Why some people blame Merrill for Marethari's mistakes is something I'll never understand, because it makes absolutely no sense.

The same way I'll never understand why some of the people who romanced her have to defend her every actions

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sorry, that may have been inexact. What I said was that the knowledge itself shouldn't be destroyed; sure, the regime should be taken out, but I don't want their libraries burned or anything.

No disagreement from over here.

Although, given the comparative military strength of Tevinter and the qunari, we should probably deal with the qunari first.

Probably, but i think that for Tevinter the regime change could end before the Qunari could mobilise it's forces to take advantage of the situation.

[dragonflight288]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

To be fair, Merrill did take a precaution of sorts by having Hawke accompany her.

If she was possessed, she could be slain then and there, by someone who has slain Pride Demons before.

Though the fact remains that she would have been possessed had Marethari not figured out the demon's plan (unlike Merrill) and predicted Merrill would take the bait. So YES, Merrill is very much an example of what Templars are worried about.

The only evidence that we have for Audacity getting free through the Eluvian is Marethari, and the only likely source for her information is Audacity, who she set free as a result of her thinking this was true.

I hardly think Merrill is an example that proves the Chantry controlled Circles correct, especially when she tells an aggressive Hawke that she won't free Audacity.

But she is also bringing Hawke along just in case if she is corrupted and does fall pray to Demonic suggestion.

Rendering the entire situation moot personally considering that when the mage in question admits that via her actions i personally stop thinking about the issue right there.


So rogue dumb demon summoning blood mages are...well hardly better then their circle counterparts. Just more lanky, not that it saves her ;o Hawke already had a lanky elf.

She's not summoning a demon. Audacity is already sundered from the Fade and is trapped inside a statue. Merrill was going closer to the statue to talk with a demon that is already trapped. Merrill tells an aggressive Hawke she has no intention of freeing Audacity, and that it takes very powerful magic to free him. 

She brings Hawke along in case the worst happens, and Hawke had already proven to be competent in fighting abominations so he was a very safe bet. 

Merethari brought no one, did no research into eluvians, took the demons word over any lore she may have had had she done her research, and became an abomination. 

Her credibility is incredibly suspicious. 

Add in that in Merrill's short story that we know that upon arrival at Sundermount both Merrill and Merethari felt the demon's presence and investigated. The closer they got, the stronger the influence became. In DA2 after learning blood magic from Audacity, Merrill left Sundermount and was therefore outside of the demons influence, while Merethari stayed for years, well within Audacity's influence range. 

And it was Merethari who originally made the point that the demon may be able to influence their thoughts in the short story, but was harmless so long as they did nothing, and they should leave him be. 

That makes Merethari the fool and Merrill the smart one as Merrill got away from the demon's influence entirely.

[dragonflight288]

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill didn't have to listen to Marethari; she did extensive research on the Eluvian, and sought to create her own. Marethari's refusal to accept Merrill's decision, and her dangerous actions that followed, don't condemn Merrill.

And look where that got her
GG Merrill 

It got Merrill building an Eluvian from the lore she gathered, and the information that she managed to extrapolate from the shard, while Marethari made one mistake after another, from trying to bully Merrill into coming back to the clan by vilifying her to everyone, and then letting Audacity loose because she thought it could escape from a restored Eluvian. Why some people blame Merrill for Marethari's mistakes is something I'll never understand, because it makes absolutely no sense.

The same way I'll never understand why some of the people who romanced her have to defend her every actions

I romance her and don't defend her every action, but work very hard to point out she's not to blame for all the problems the Dalish are facing. She left the clan and technically wasn't one of them anymore so she shouldn't be held accountable for their choices. Nor should she be held responsible for what Merethari chooses to do or not to do. 

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

To be fair, Merrill did take a precaution of sorts by having Hawke accompany her.

If she was possessed, she could be slain then and there, by someone who has slain Pride Demons before.

Though the fact remains that she would have been possessed had Marethari not figured out the demon's plan (unlike Merrill) and predicted Merrill would take the bait. So YES, Merrill is very much an example of what Templars are worried about.

The only evidence that we have for Audacity getting free through the Eluvian is Marethari, and the only likely source for her information is Audacity, who she set free as a result of her thinking this was true.

I hardly think Merrill is an example that proves the Chantry controlled Circles correct, especially when she tells an aggressive Hawke that she won't free Audacity.

But she is also bringing Hawke along just in case if she is corrupted and does fall pray to Demonic suggestion.

Rendering the entire situation moot personally considering that when the mage in question admits that via her actions i personally stop thinking about the issue right there.


So rogue dumb demon summoning blood mages are...well hardly better then their circle counterparts. Just more lanky, not that it saves her ;o Hawke already had a lanky elf.

She's not summoning a demon. Audacity is already sundered from the Fade and is trapped inside a statue. Merrill was going closer to the statue to talk with a demon that is already trapped. Merrill tells an aggressive Hawke she has no intention of freeing Audacity, and that it takes very powerful magic to free him. 

She brings Hawke along in case the worst happens, and Hawke had already proven to be competent in fighting abominations so he was a very safe bet. 

Merethari brought no one, did no research into eluvians, took the demons word over any lore she may have had had she done her research, and became an abomination. 

Her credibility is incredibly suspicious. 

Add in that in Merrill's short story that we know that upon arrival at Sundermount both Merrill and Merethari felt the demon's presence and investigated. The closer they got, the stronger the influence became. In DA2 after learning blood magic from Audacity, Merrill left Sundermount and was therefore outside of the demons influence, while Merethari stayed for years, well within Audacity's influence range. 

And it was Merethari who originally made the point that the demon may be able to influence their thoughts in the short story, but was harmless so long as they did nothing, and they should leave him be. 

That makes Merethari the fool and Merrill the smart one as Merrill got away from the demon's influence entirely.

Mmm except that until many years done the Line; Merril was the only one who cut a deal with said demon.

How exactly does that make her smarter?

._. The Influence is already there.