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[AresKeith]

dragonflight288 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

The same way I'll never understand why some of the people who romanced her have to defend her every actions

I romance her and don't defend her every action, but work very hard to point out she's not to blame for all the problems the Dalish are facing. She left the clan and technically wasn't one of them anymore so she shouldn't be held accountable for their choices. Nor should she be held responsible for what Merethari chooses to do or not to do. 

That's why I said some 

[dragonflight288]

Mmm except that until many years done the Line; Merril was the only one who cut a deal with said demon.

How exactly does that make her smarter?

._. The Influence is already there.

And Audacity can't reach her in Kirkwall. She's not connected to it by a blood pact or a contract like Connor had with the Desire Demon in Redcliff. It can't even influence her dreams as a mage since it isn't in the Fade.

While Merrill was in Kirkwall, and so long as she stayed away from Sundermount, that demon had no influence or power over her. But it did have power and influence over Merethari because of proximity.

[durasteel]

AresKeith wrote...
Not enough facepalms for this post 

I see.

Instead of pointing out how ridiculous it is for you to blame Merrill for Marethari's death, I should have just let you know that you had said something stupid by using a trite meme.

So noted.

[dragonflight288]

AresKeith wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

The same way I'll never understand why some of the people who romanced her have to defend her every actions

I romance her and don't defend her every action, but work very hard to point out she's not to blame for all the problems the Dalish are facing. She left the clan and technically wasn't one of them anymore so she shouldn't be held accountable for their choices. Nor should she be held responsible for what Merethari chooses to do or not to do. 

That's why I said some 

Ah. Fair enough.

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Mmm except that until many years done the Line; Merril was the only one who cut a deal with said demon.

How exactly does that make her smarter?

._. The Influence is already there.

And Audacity can't reach her in Kirkwall. She's not connected to it by a blood pact or a contract like Connor had with the Desire Demon in Redcliff. It can't even influence her dreams as a mage since it isn't in the Fade.

While Merrill was in Kirkwall, and so long as she stayed away from Sundermount, that demon had no influence or power over her. But it did have power and influence over Merethari because of proximity.

Still doesn't magically make this not defense of some one who opened a gateway into themselves for possible future interaction with said being.

Away from the demon or not, considering her subject of research its obvious she would end up there sooner or later anyway; So if you have all time why bother worrying about waiting less then a decade?

So sure distance, proxmity blah blah it doesn't change much considering she would in all likelyhood return of her own free will anyway.

[AresKeith]

durasteel wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
Not enough facepalms for this post 

I see.

Instead of pointing out how ridiculous it is for you to blame Merrill for Marethari's death, I should have just let you know that you had said something stupid by using a trite meme.

So noted.

If you say so

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The only evidence that we have for Audacity getting free through the Eluvian is Marethari, and the only likely source for her information is Audacity, who she set free as a result of her thinking this was true.

I hardly think Merrill is an example that proves the Chantry controlled Circles correct, especially when she tells an aggressive Hawke that she won't free Audacity.

But she is also bringing Hawke along just in case if she is corrupted and does fall pray to Demonic suggestion.

Merrill does mention that, when the Eluvian remained inert, she tried to contact Audacity, and it was silent. Audacity might not be trapped anymore, and Merrill makes it clear to Hawke that she is taking precautions. As we know with Sophia Dryden, people can be possessed when the spirit is in the real world. When the issue of letting Audacity free does come up (with an aggressive Hawke), Merrill explicitly says she isn't going to free Audacity from it's prison.

Master Warder Z wrote...

Rendering the entire situation moot personally considering that when the mage in question admits that via her actions i personally stop thinking about the issue right there.

I think Merrill was demonstrating more intelligence than Marethari ever did, when you contrast how Merrill took precautions in case Audacity was free of the totem, while Marethari warned no one until it was too late.

Master Warder Z wrote...

So rogue dumb demon summoning blood mages are...well hardly better then their circle counterparts. Just more lanky, not that it saves her ;o Hawke already had a lanky elf.

I see nothing dumb about Merrill wanting to prevent the death of innocent people, if Audacity had escaped.

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It got Merrill building an Eluvian from the lore she gathered, and the information that she managed to extrapolate from the shard, while Marethari made one mistake after another, from trying to bully Merrill into coming back to the clan by vilifying her to everyone, and then letting Audacity loose because she thought it could escape from a restored Eluvian. Why some people blame Merrill for Marethari's mistakes is something I'll never understand, because it makes absolutely no sense. 

Makes about as much sense as her idiotic obbession that resulted in her clan vilifying her and usage of blood magic with out expecting the price of such knowledge to be called upon eventually.

Communication over vast distances is hardly idiotic, especially when you factor in the setting that the Dalish are in. Revolutionary technology could make a real difference for the Elvhen.

As for Merrill's blood magic, she never abuses her abilities. She learned blood magic to cleanse the shard of the taint, because she lacked the necessary amount of lyrium to cleanse it with ordinary magic. I don't see any reason to vilify Merrill for this, nor is there any proof that Merrill made a contract with Audacity.

Master Warder Z wrote...

She admitted it herself, everything with Demons is deals and yet magically that same principle doesn't apply to herself?

Audacity taught Merrill blood magic while it was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem. No deal was brokered, and no contract is ever referenced.

Master Warder Z wrote...

That said i blame the blood mage for what she did personally; More then enough reason to consider her dumb, morally lax and pretty sociopathic just from that. 

Yes, you blame Merrill for the actions of other people; that's been made very clear.

[Xilizhra]

Probably, but i think that for Tevinter the regime change could end before the Qunari could mobilise it's forces to take advantage of the situation.

It's possible, but strikes me as being extremely risky. Unless there was some kind of popular revolt that could still unite the mages that are the Imperium's best defenses before the qunari came in.

The same way I'll never understand why some of the people who romanced her have to defend her every actions

Not all. She trusted too much in the Eluvian to win over her clan of its own right and failed to understand that some prejudices go too deep to be solved by logic, and she trusted Marethari too much. And she was too ready, I feel, to sacrifice herself.

[Master Warder Z_]

This popped up into my head when Lob was giving his if i am being completely honest less then stellar defense of Merril. ._. Its horrible i know but such is the inner workings of the mind.

Leave Merril alone!

She's an elf! (Despite the fact in DA this likely would only cause more problems)

On that note i really do think the thread should return to topic.

[The Hierophant]

Audacity taught Merrill blood magic while it was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem. No deal was brokered, and no contract is ever referenced.

Why would Audacity teach Merril blood magic with no conditions or anything in return?

[LobselVith8]

AresKeith wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It got Merrill building an Eluvian from the lore she gathered, and the information that she managed to extrapolate from the shard, while Marethari made one mistake after another, from trying to bully Merrill into coming back to the clan by vilifying her to everyone, and then letting Audacity loose because she thought it could escape from a restored Eluvian. Why some people blame Merrill for Marethari's mistakes is something I'll never understand, because it makes absolutely no sense. 

The same way I'll never understand why some of the people who romanced her have to defend her every actions

Defending Merrill against posters who blame her for Marethari's actions is hardly defending her every action. I don't think Merrill is perfect, but I respect her trying to do something about the plight of the People when it was clear that the status quo wasn't changing their decline. I don't even claim that her efforts to restore the Eluvian would have worked, but I think it was worth a try to see if the technology might be beneficial.

Considering that Hawke asks people to risk their lives in the Deep Roads for wealth, I'm not sure why Merrill is ostracized for trying to help the Elvhen.

[dragonflight288]

The Hierophant wrote...

Audacity taught Merrill blood magic while it was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem. No deal was brokered, and no contract is ever referenced.

Why would Audacity teach Merril blood magic with no conditions or anything in return?

Because this is Merrill's M.O. She advocates using demons before they use you, and betraying it. She gives this advice in the Deep Roads with the Hunger Demon, suggesting we hear it's knowledge and once we have what we need we would no longer need to deal with it. This what she suggests with Torpor in Feynriel's dream.

Heck, if we get on Merrill for this, we may as well get on Anders for the same thing. If you agree to hear Torpor out, Anders/Justice throws a fit, but if you tell him you are only using Torpor to get what you want but have no intention of making a deal, you will actually get friendship points with Anders.

I'm not saying this is smart, but I think this is what Merrill did with Audacity. Suggested a possible deal, and turned her back on it before any deal could be made. 

[Master Warder Z_]

The Hierophant wrote...

Audacity taught Merrill blood magic while it was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem. No deal was brokered, and no contract is ever referenced.

Why would Audacity teach Merril blood magic with no conditions or anything in return?

It wouldn't.

Aka we either have for the first time in recorded history a generous demon doing something for free.

Or a contract was signed and Merril was like every other mage who made a deal with a demon.

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

She's not summoning a demon. Audacity is already sundered from the Fade and is trapped inside a statue. Merrill was going closer to the statue to talk with a demon that is already trapped. Merrill tells an aggressive Hawke she has no intention of freeing Audacity, and that it takes very powerful magic to free him. 

She brings Hawke along in case the worst happens, and Hawke had already proven to be competent in fighting abominations so he was a very safe bet. 

Merethari brought no one, did no research into eluvians, took the demons word over any lore she may have had had she done her research, and became an abomination. 

Her credibility is incredibly suspicious. 

Add in that in Merrill's short story that we know that upon arrival at Sundermount both Merrill and Merethari felt the demon's presence and investigated. The closer they got, the stronger the influence became. In DA2 after learning blood magic from Audacity, Merrill left Sundermount and was therefore outside of the demons influence, while Merethari stayed for years, well within Audacity's influence range. 

And it was Merethari who originally made the point that the demon may be able to influence their thoughts in the short story, but was harmless so long as they did nothing, and they should leave him be. 

That makes Merethari the fool and Merrill the smart one as Merrill got away from the demon's influence entirely.

Mmm except that until many years done the Line; Merril was the only one who cut a deal with said demon.
How exactly does that make her smarter?

._. The Influence is already there. 

Aside from the fact that there's absolutely no evidence that Merrill made any deal with Audacity - especially since Marethari claims that Audacity would try to possess her by escaping through the restored Eluvian.

You seem to be condemning Merrill because of information you basically made up to vilify her.

[dragonflight288]

I don't even claim that her efforts to restore the Eluvian would have worked, but I think it was worth a try to see if the technology might be beneficial.

Considering that Hawke asks people to risk their lives in the Deep Roads for wealth, I'm not sure why Merrill is ostracized for trying to help the Elvhen.

I also find it interesting that people are so dismissive of the eluvian, when we actually don't know what the end result would be as it is never actually finished. She builds up, but doesn't know how to activate it. If she activated it and things worked well, she'd be lauded a hero of the Dalish. Until it's activated, it is impossible to say with certainty one way or another if her obsession with the eluvian was worth it.

[KaiserShep]

Man what doesn't get you vilified among the Dalish?

"Watch your step, shem. You don't know how many noses are looking down at you right now."

Modifié par KaiserShep, 20 février 2014 - 08:12 .

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

This popped up into my head when Lob was giving his if i am being completely honest less then stellar defense of Merril. ._. Its horrible i know but such is the inner workings of the mind.

Leave Merril alone!

She's an elf! (Despite the fact in DA this likely would only cause more problems)

You seem to take issue with how I point out facts in my defense for Merrill, and you basically made up a claim that isn't supported by the story in your codemnation of her.

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Audacity taught Merrill blood magic while it was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem. No deal was brokered, and no contract is ever referenced.

Why would Audacity teach Merril blood magic with no conditions or anything in return?

Because this is Merrill's M.O. She advocates using demons before they use you, and betraying it. She gives this advice in the Deep Roads with the Hunger Demon, suggesting we hear it's knowledge and once we have what we need we would no longer need to deal with it. This what she suggests with Torpor in Feynriel's dream.

Heck, if we get on Merrill for this, we may as well get on Anders for the same thing. If you agree to hear Torpor out, Anders/Justice throws a fit, but if you tell him you are only using Torpor to get what you want but have no intention of making a deal, you will actually get friendship points with Anders.

I'm not saying this is smart, but I think this is what Merrill did with Audacity. Suggested a possible deal, and turned her back on it before any deal could be made. 

Erm this is magical knowledge she is requesting, not basic information that a tour guide can give out.

The last demon who was holding the secret of blood magic over the PC was asking a pretty steep price for it.

So her apparent M.O or not  a demon does NOTHING for free, Until Bioware confirms otherwise she is like every one else who has ever struck a deal with a demon. Aka a walking, waiting to be possesed meat sack with poor paste in footware.

[dragonflight288]

KaiserShep wrote...

Man what doesn't get you vilified among the Dalish?

"Watch your step, shem. You don't know how many noses are looking down at you right now."

Or,

Maybe I can help you deal with the darkspawn where there's ironbark?

NO! A shem can't possibly succeed where our hunters failed! Leave us be to bask in our self-righteousness and arrogance!

or

Oh my, I seem to have left my pointy ears and self-righteousness at home.

You, shemlen! 

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

This popped up into my head when Lob was giving his if i am being completely honest less then stellar defense of Merril. ._. Its horrible i know but such is the inner workings of the mind.

Leave Merril alone!

She's an elf! (Despite the fact in DA this likely would only cause more problems)

You seem to take issue with how I point out facts in my defense for Merrill, and you basically made up a claim that isn't supported by the story in your codemnation of her.

When you hear of a Demon teaching Blood Magic for free gimmie a hollor k lob?

Til then every other Demon deal known of in existance in the Lore does my defense more credit then your rebuke ever could.

[KaiserShep]

dragonflight288 wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Man what doesn't get you vilified among the Dalish?

"Watch your step, shem. You don't know how many noses are looking down at you right now."

Or,

Maybe I can help you deal with the darkspawn where there's ironbark?

NO! A shem can't possibly succeed where our hunters failed! Leave us be to bask in our self-righteousness and arrogance!

or

Oh my, I seem to have left my pointy ears and self-righteousness at home.

You, shemlen! 

I love that line. I always go back to the Dalish camp to troll that guy.

[dragonflight288]

Master Warder Z wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Audacity taught Merrill blood magic while it was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem. No deal was brokered, and no contract is ever referenced.

Why would Audacity teach Merril blood magic with no conditions or anything in return?

Because this is Merrill's M.O. She advocates using demons before they use you, and betraying it. She gives this advice in the Deep Roads with the Hunger Demon, suggesting we hear it's knowledge and once we have what we need we would no longer need to deal with it. This what she suggests with Torpor in Feynriel's dream.

Heck, if we get on Merrill for this, we may as well get on Anders for the same thing. If you agree to hear Torpor out, Anders/Justice throws a fit, but if you tell him you are only using Torpor to get what you want but have no intention of making a deal, you will actually get friendship points with Anders.

I'm not saying this is smart, but I think this is what Merrill did with Audacity. Suggested a possible deal, and turned her back on it before any deal could be made. 

Erm this is magical knowledge she is requesting, not basic information that a tour guide can give out.

The last demon who was holding the secret of blood magic over the PC was asking a pretty steep price for it.

So her apparent M.O or not  a demon does NOTHING for free, Until Bioware confirms otherwise she is like every one else who has ever struck a deal with a demon. Aka a walking, waiting to be possesed meat sack with poor paste in footware.

The Warden can intimidate the Desire demon to leave ConnorAND teach him/her blood magic, so it is possible.

Your arguments make sense on the surface, but they aren't backed up by any evidence from the game or from Merrill's short story. 

[LobselVith8]

The Hierophant wrote...

Audacity taught Merrill blood magic while it was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem. No deal was brokered, and no contract is ever referenced.

Why would Audacity teach Merril blood magic with no conditions or anything in return?

Considering that Marethari ended up freeing Audacity from the totem, I'd say that the story strongly suggests that the entire point was to possess Marethari.

Merrill learned blood magic from Audacity, but she refused to let Audacity free for several years, while Marethari stayed nearby Sundermount (where Audacity could speak to her and show her things, since the short story notated how proximity mattered) and ended up thinking that Audacity would escape through a restored Eluvian, even though the Keeper never mentions how she came to this conclusion.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

She's not summoning a demon. Audacity is already sundered from the Fade and is trapped inside a statue. Merrill was going closer to the statue to talk with a demon that is already trapped. Merrill tells an aggressive Hawke she has no intention of freeing Audacity, and that it takes very powerful magic to free him. 

She brings Hawke along in case the worst happens, and Hawke had already proven to be competent in fighting abominations so he was a very safe bet. 

Merethari brought no one, did no research into eluvians, took the demons word over any lore she may have had had she done her research, and became an abomination. 

Her credibility is incredibly suspicious. 

Add in that in Merrill's short story that we know that upon arrival at Sundermount both Merrill and Merethari felt the demon's presence and investigated. The closer they got, the stronger the influence became. In DA2 after learning blood magic from Audacity, Merrill left Sundermount and was therefore outside of the demons influence, while Merethari stayed for years, well within Audacity's influence range. 

And it was Merethari who originally made the point that the demon may be able to influence their thoughts in the short story, but was harmless so long as they did nothing, and they should leave him be. 

That makes Merethari the fool and Merrill the smart one as Merrill got away from the demon's influence entirely.

Mmm except that until many years done the Line; Merril was the only one who cut a deal with said demon.
How exactly does that make her smarter?

._. The Infl

influence is already there. 

Aside from the fact that there's absolutely no evidence that Merrill made any deal with Audacity - especially since Marethari claims that Audacity would try to possess her by escaping through the restored Eluvian.

You seem to be condemning Merrill because of information you basically made up to vilify her.

And there is no evidence suggesting it was done for free and there is no evidence suggesting there wasn't a connection made in fact apparently even Merril feared said connection enough to fear possesion.

To that point You seem to be defending with presumption and your own spin on the lore.

About the same as what i do to basically point out her out as an abomination to be.