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[Grieving Natashina]

@The Baconer:

Well, dumping them in a prison and showing them images of fear worked for a long long time. We all as players need to forget that this system worked overall pretty well for nearly 1000 years. That's a long time.

It wasn't just that Kirkwall was a bad Circle. The whole thing was bound to go off sooner or later. It happened to be there and it happened to be in the form of a powerful ex-Grey Warden mage turned abomination. I don't think it would have mattered quite as much in the end. No matter what, the whole damned Skirts vs Robes conflict was going to happen sooner or later.

The mages didn't know for sure; they were suspicious, but the Engima and the details behind it aren't so well known. You're assuming also that the mages in Kirkwall have ever had any say about where they were locked up. Or most Circles in general.

The average mage that grew up in the Kirkwall circles didn't know how good or bad it was. They weren't allowed much contact with the outside world and prior to the Fifth Blight, there wasn't many transferring in. The mages didn't there have any thing to compare it to.

While I think Anders and his actions certainly sped things up, sooner or later any of the Circles across Thedas were going to break down. Again, the whole system was a ticking bomb just waiting to go off.

[leaguer of one]

Starsyn wrote...


While I think Anders and his actions certainly sped things up, sooner or later any of the Circles across Thedas were going to break down. Again, the whole system was a ticking bomb just waiting to go off.

What do you expect to happen if you lock abunch of people with powers together and use fear as the only thing to keep order?

[Grieving Natashina]

leaguer of one wrote...

Starsyn wrote...


While I think Anders and his actions certainly sped things up, sooner or later any of the Circles across Thedas were going to break down. Again, the whole system was a ticking bomb just waiting to go off.

What do you expect to happen if you lock abunch of people with powers together and use fear as the only thing to keep order?

That's exactly what I'm saying.   Not all Circles used (and abused) fear over mages like the one in Kirkwall did, but the whole thing was bound to fail sooner or later.  

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Baconer wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I wouldn't call it laziness as much as practicality and convenience.

Synonymous in this case, especially since it ended up being the opposite of convenient for everyone involved.

Completely unsubstantiated claim. The Gallows stood for over 900 years without ever falling. Do you expect the Chantry to predict what will happen 900 years in the future in all their decissions?

What you are saying is that we moved all the components in the Kirkwall incident away from he Gallows, then the incident would enver have happened. Where is the proof to back up this claim?

Matter of fact is, that the Gallows was a huge building designed to hold hundreds of people. It was an ideal location for a Circle. On paper.

[Grieving Natashina]

Emperor, we don't agree often, but I owe you a drink. That's how I also felt about the use of the Gallows as a Circle in Kirkwall.

I'm having regular cider since I had to quit drinking. I'll buy you a round of whatever you'd like at all, good sir. 

Modifié par Starsyn, 15 février 2014 - 07:47 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Starsyn wrote...

Emperor, we don't agree often, but I owe you a drink. That's how I also felt about the use of the Gallows as a Circle in Kirkwall.

I'm having regular cider since I had to quit drinking. I'll buy you a round of whatever you'd like at all, good sir. 

It feels like I havn't seen clean sparkling water for ages, so I'll just settle for some pristine water 

[Cainhurst Crow]

I feel dragon age showed the worst of both sides in anders and meredith, both of which are only able to be the worst of either of their factions because of outside forces compelling them to do so. For anders it was justice, for meredith it was the idol, but either way, both were bad. Though I think the game made it far too easy to sympathize with mages by not giving the templars a voice as well. Carver, who joins the templars, isn't able to be in your party, and fenris, while against magic, isn't really pro circle or pro templar either, he's just anti-mage.

[Grieving Natashina]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

Emperor, we don't agree often, but I owe you a drink. That's how I also felt about the use of the Gallows as a Circle in Kirkwall.

I'm having regular cider since I had to quit drinking. I'll buy you a round of whatever you'd like at all, good sir. 

It feels like I havn't seen clean sparkling water for ages, so I'll just settle for some pristine water 

No reason to blush!  I can do that for you. 

[Hellion Rex]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I feel dragon age showed the worst of both sides in anders and meredith, both of which are only able to be the worst of either of their factions because of outside forces compelling them to do so. For anders it was justice, for meredith it was the idol, but either way, both were bad. Though I think the game made it far too easy to sympathize with mages by not giving the templars a voice as well. Carver, who joins the templars, isn't able to be in your party, and fenris, while against magic, isn't really pro circle or pro templar either, he's just anti-mage.

I can agree with this statement. I am heavily pro-mage but I still think DA2 presented the whole situation as way too black and white. When presented with the final choice during the Last Straw, I felt like I would be unabashedly evil by taking the templar side, which I don't think is a good thing. And I agree that we didn't really have a templar voice to add to the discussion, but we had 3 apostate mages instead. And even an anti-mage Fenris can be swayed to a more pro-magic side if you romance or become friends with him as a mage. In Inquisition, I hope we can gain a more balanced approach from both sides, no crazy lyrium idols or spirits in sight.

Modifié par eluvianix, 15 février 2014 - 08:31 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lol siding with templars evil? do i have mention that 99 % of mages were corrupted and dangerous when we have only 2 (3 if we count meredith) corrupted templars...

[Grieving Natashina]

By the Creators Komandor....that wasn't eluvianix's point at all.

I agree with you, eluvianix. I'm not sure if "evil" is the right word, but in my opinion, I felt more like a tyrant. As players, I hope we see more reasonable persons on both sides. Not just "blood mages" versus "zealots." Both sides looked awful in DA2, which I believe was largely the point.

I think it's time to back out of this thread. Enjoy your skirts...or robes...or whatever.

Dear gods, new information about Inquisition can't happen fast enough. The Mage v Templar threads have started to get a little really freaking old.

Modifié par Starsyn, 15 février 2014 - 08:51 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Starsyn wrote...

By the Creators Komandor....that wasn't eluvianix's point at all.

I agree with you, eluvianix. I'm not sure if "evil" is the right word, but in my opinion, I felt more like a tyrant. As players, I hope we see more reasonable persons on both sides. Not just "blood mages" versus "zealots." Both sides looked awful in DA2, which I believe was largely the point.

I think it's time to back out of this thread. Enjoy your skirts...or robes...or whatever.

Dear gods, new information about Inquisition can't happen fast enough. The Mage v Templar threads have started to get a little really freaking old.

He said that when he sided with templars he felt evil which is ridiculous as mages were much more corrupted than templars and templars were trying keep everything in one piece (outside meredith).So just stupid...


And not rly templars weren't awful in dragon age 2 arlik ,karras and meredith were "bad" thats all so i don't get it worst side if that is worst side of templars they are fine... 

Templars didn't do anything wrong beyond being super incompetent and thrask group stupidity...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

By the Creators Komandor....that wasn't eluvianix's point at all.

I agree with you, eluvianix. I'm not sure if "evil" is the right word, but in my opinion, I felt more like a tyrant. As players, I hope we see more reasonable persons on both sides. Not just "blood mages" versus "zealots." Both sides looked awful in DA2, which I believe was largely the point.

I think it's time to back out of this thread. Enjoy your skirts...or robes...or whatever.

Dear gods, new information about Inquisition can't happen fast enough. The Mage v Templar threads have started to get a little really freaking old.

He said that when he sided with templars he felt evil which is ridiculous as mages were much more corrupted than templars and templars were trying keep everything in one piece (outside meredith).So just stupid...


And not rly templars weren't awful in dragon age 2 arlik ,karras and meredith were "bad" thats all so i don't get it worst side if that is worst side of templars they are fine... 

Templars didn't do anything wrong beyond being super incompetent and thrask group stupidity...

He said siding with them during The Last Straw was evil. You know, where the Circle of Kirkwall was annulled for something Anders did.

You forgot Alrik.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As I've said, I'm hoping there is compromise to be had between the two factions. If push comes to shove like it did in DA2 though, depending on circumstances of course, I'll probably side with Mages. I always end up siding with the oppressed.

[TheKomandorShepard]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...


He said siding with them during The Last Straw was evil. You know, where the Circle of Kirkwall was annulled for something Anders did.

You forgot Alrik.

Yes meredith did that because she wanted slain mages but mages were corrupt at this point we know so it is like crying that the warden slained tevinter slavers in elven alienage so as i said meredith had own reasons but she was right to chop mages even in her insanity...

Well i mentioned alrik...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...


He said siding with them during The Last Straw was evil. You know, where the Circle of Kirkwall was annulled for something Anders did.

You forgot Alrik.

Yes meredith did that because she wanted slain mages but mages were corrupt at this point we know so it is like crying that the warden slained tevinter slavers in elven alienage so as i said meredith had own reasons but she was right to chop mages even in her insanity...

Well i mentioned alrik...

A few =/= all were. If a few people in an organization are corrupt, then literally everybody on the planet is corrupt. And no, she was not right to kill all for the sake of a few.

I apologize. I missed seeing Alrik in your post.

[TheKomandorShepard]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

A few =/= all were. If a few people in an organization are corrupt, then literally everybody on the planet is corrupt. And no, she was not right to kill all for the sake of a few.

I apologize. I missed seeing Alrik in your post.

Not rly even hawke admited in cut part that meredith was right and that was not few we killed many of them and many of them were blood mages or abomnations during purge even orsino was corrupted very corrupted.And no it wasn't killing for sake of few it was killing few for sake of all non-mages...

I will say that meredith was insane but she was right and no one belived her even other templars and to be honest outside meredith real motivation RoA was great response on corrupted mages...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

A few =/= all were. If a few people in an organization are corrupt, then literally everybody on the planet is corrupt. And no, she was not right to kill all for the sake of a few.

I apologize. I missed seeing Alrik in your post.

Not rly even hawke admited in cut part that meredith was right and that was not few we killed many of them and many of them were blood mages or abomnations during purge even orsino was corrupted very corrupted.And no it wasn't killing for sake of few it was killing few for sake of all non-mages...

I will say that meredith was insane but she was right and no one belived her even other templars and to be honest outside meredith real motivation RoA was great response on corrupted mages...

What Hawke says does not matter since they are the PC. You can choose what they say. And you really think the two dozen blood mages and abominations represent the entire Circle, comprised of hundreds of men, women, and children? And I'm talking about killing all the mages for the sake of a few corrupt ones, but there is also the point that the Circle was not about to attack Kirkwall. If anything, Kirkwall would have attacked the Circle and anyone who does so is no longer an innocent bystander but a combatant. 

But now we're at the point where I'm trying to prove to you that mages aren't the devil incarnate, which is like trying to explain color to a creature without eyes. It will never work, and thus I'm done.

[TheKomandorShepard]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

A few =/= all were. If a few people in an organization are corrupt, then literally everybody on the planet is corrupt. And no, she was not right to kill all for the sake of a few.

I apologize. I missed seeing Alrik in your post.

Not rly even hawke admited in cut part that meredith was right and that was not few we killed many of them and many of them were blood mages or abomnations during purge even orsino was corrupted very corrupted.And no it wasn't killing for sake of few it was killing few for sake of all non-mages...

I will say that meredith was insane but she was right and no one belived her even other templars and to be honest outside meredith real motivation RoA was great response on corrupted mages...

What Hawke says does not matter since they are the PC. You can choose what they say. And you really think the two dozen blood mages and abominations represent the entire Circle, comprised of hundreds of men, women, and children? And I'm talking about killing all the mages for the sake of a few corrupt ones, but there is also the point that the Circle was not about to attack Kirkwall. If anything, Kirkwall would have attacked the Circle and anyone who does so is no longer an innocent bystander but a combatant. 

But now we're at the point where I'm trying to prove to you that mages aren't the devil incarnate, which is like trying to explain color to a creature without eyes. It will never work, and thus I'm done.

i saw enough corrupted mages through 10 years hell only non currpted meges were bethany , merril ,alain and ferynhiel thats all... it was corrupted circle we had evidences before roa and after circle was corrupted grace army paint this best... 

children or not they can be abomnations as well so...

i failed to see that poor little innocent mages when i had slain them because they attacked me in their insanity as abomnations or blood mages...

You are right they arend devil incarnate they are demon incarnate

like it or no circle was corrupted and mages were insane or abomnations...

[durasteel]

Templars apparently all are a bunch of religious zealots who have been addicted to lyrium primarily to aid in brainwashing them into an army of theocratic fascists.

The overwhelming majority of mages are never possessed by demons or spirits, and in fact only practice schools of magic sanctioned by the same silly religion that the Templars nominally adhere to.

If you're looking for corruption, start with the Templars.

Modifié par durasteel, 15 février 2014 - 09:36 .

[KaiserShep]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Lol siding with templars evil? do i have mention that 99 % of mages were corrupted and dangerous when we have only 2 (3 if we count meredith) corrupted templars...

I'm not sure why anyone entertains this argument if it's going to be full of made-up numbers and gross exaggeration, especially when coupled with the hare-brained idea of killing all mages.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 15 février 2014 - 09:33 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

durasteel wrote...

Templar apparently all are a bunch of religious zealots who have been addicted to lyrium primarily to aid in brainwashing them into an army of theocratic fascists.

The overwhelming majority of mages are never possessed by demons or spirits, and in fact only practice schools of magic sanctioned by the same silly religion that the Templars nominally adhere to.

If you're looking for corruption, start with the Templars.

fanatic doesn't mean corrupted i will agree they are fanantics but i prefer fanatics over unstoppable monsters that want destroy world and have means to do that...

"The overwhelming majority of mages are never possessed by demons or spirits"

Rly because if i will start every abomnation that we encountered it will take a lot of time and we still we have power hungry insane mages , harmful mages like zathrian and others to put on pedestal...

Like it or not templars aren't rly harmful to anyone outside mages and they protect rest of the world from mages not they are very successful in doing that but without them rate of mages rampaging around would be a lor bigger...

KaiserShep wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Lol
siding with templars evil? do i have mention that 99 % of mages were
corrupted and dangerous when we have only 2 (3 if we count meredith)
corrupted templars... [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

I'm
not sure why anyone entertains this argument if it's going to be full
of made-up numbers and gross exaggeration, especially when coupled with
the hare-brained idea of killing all mages.

Well do you want corrupted mage vs sane and not harmful mage in da 2 duel?

[Cainhurst Crow]

Templars suck because they seem to get it in their head that the rules of society and law do not apply to them. They can and sometimes do overstep their bounds in challenging sovereign legitimate powers of the land to attempt to usurp them, as meredith and sister petrice did during dragon age 2. The abuses of power for those they watch is the grey area because of the methods employed by the mages and mage sympathizers to "fight back" against them, which pushes them to use more extreme measures and only adds more fuel to the fire.

Mages suck because they tend to think in only a mage-centric viewpoint, thinking that whatever is beneficial for them is beneficial for everyone and anyone standing in their way are wrong by default. I've seen more then enough mages rewriting history and using whatever means necessary to get what they want, as was seen by individuals like grace or anders, and whole cult of the mage andraste and the denial of mages involvement in the blight. Their struggle for rights is a grey issue because in some cases they are right and things must change and be improved, but the way they go about doing such changes only seem to promote further suffering.

Must we really discuss further what is painfully obvious? That both sides do indeed suck eggs and that the "leaders" of these now extremist factions should not be taken seriously as legitimate advocates for any sort of good?

I;d rather depose both faction leaders and install a more peace oriented and moderate leaning leaders in power. See how long it takes before the extremes of society begin to hate and rise against me for doing so. At least I can take whatever they throw at me and keep innocent people from dying in the crossfire.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 15 février 2014 - 09:53 .

[DooomCookie]

Mage-sympathisers find it unbalanced in favour of the templars.
Templar-sympathisers find it unbalanced in favour of the mages.
The writers seems to be doing something right.