8640 réponses à ce sujet

[Navasha]

I have never done a "good" playthrough where I sided with the Templars. Siding with the oppressors is undeniably not a noble thing to do.

When there is a Rite of Annulment called down upon the Templar order for something even ONE Templar does, then I shall consider them equally.

[cjones91]

I'd say DA2 showed the worst of both groups(hamfisted as it was).Now I hope DAI shows the good qualities of both factions as well as those who have neutral opinions.

[cjones91]

Navasha wrote...

I have never done a "good" playthrough where I sided with the Templars. Siding with the oppressors is undeniably not a noble thing to do.

When there is a Rite of Annulment called down upon the Templar order for something even ONE Templar does, then I shall consider them equally.

That'll never happen because then it would be genocide,killing hundreds of mages however is not considered to be such for some reason.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Navasha wrote...

I have never done a "good" playthrough where I sided with the Templars. Siding with the oppressors is undeniably not a noble thing to do.

When there is a Rite of Annulment called down upon the Templar order for something even ONE Templar does, then I shall consider them equally.

We saw only 2 templars corrupted (a few more if we count unamed templars with alrik in anders quest) and 1 insane.Templars aren't rly oppressors they are police...

And that was only meredith reason but RoA was totally in place as any other RoA real point was kill corrupted mages almost everyone was corrupted rest of them are just very small casualties...

[KaiserShep]

However many templars are corrupt is actually irrelevant. If the person giving the orders is corrupt, and the others follow, what is the difference? I'm sure no one cared whether or not an SS guard was corrupt or evil.

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Templars aren't rly oppressors they are police...

You say this as though they can't be both. A police force, left to abuse its authority, can definitely be the oppressors as well.

Anyway, you're clearly dismissing this under the idea that most if not all of the mages in the Circle are corrupt when you have nothing to indicate as such. In DA:O, the Right of Annulment was considered under extreme circumstances, since the Circle was falling apart and overrun with demons. While Orsino made things more difficult, the Right was not being treated as a last resort, and calling for it after Anders' attack was completely uncalled for. Amusingly, the reasoning was that the people of the city would seek retribution. That's like Mayor Bloomberg rounding rounding up an entire ethnic group for the actions of a handful of crazy people because he feels the rest of the city would want it.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 15 février 2014 - 10:33 .

[cjones91]

KaiserShep wrote...

However many templars are corrupt is actually irrelevant. If the person giving the orders is corrupt, and the others follow, what is the difference? I'm sure no one cared whether or not an SS guard was corrupt or evil.

Agreed,anyone who followed Alrik,Kerras,etc are just as corrupt as they are..

[TheKomandorShepard]

KaiserShep wrote...

However many templars are corrupt is actually irrelevant. If the person giving the orders is corrupt, and the others follow, what is the difference? I'm sure no one cared whether or not an SS guard was corrupt or evil.

Meredith wasn't corrupted only insane templar that tried deal with insane and corrupted mages but no one belived her because well she was insane but still right.

Corruption is everywhere but corrupted mages can do far much damage than corrupted templar...

i would say that more important is whether templar is competent their job is control and watch mages not hug them that is most important...  

KaiserShep wrote...

You say this as though
they can't be both. A police force, left to abuse its authority, can
definitely be the oppressors as well.

There were only 2 known persons as abusers as far i renember meredith was doing her job controling mage badly but still she did nothing above her authority and well to be honest she was right about mages...

KaiserShep wrote...

Anyway, you're clearly dismissing this
under the idea that most if not all of the mages in the Circle are
corrupt when you have nothing to indicate as such. In DA:O, the Right of
Annulment was considered under extreme circumstances, since the Circle
was falling apart and overrun with demons. While Orsino made things more
difficult, the Right was not being treated as a last resort, and
calling for it after Anders' attack was completely uncalled for.
Amusingly, the reasoning was that the people of the city would seek
retribution. That's like Mayor Bloomberg rounding rounding up an entire
ethnic group for the actions of a handful of crazy people because he
feels the rest of the city would want it.

Do i have count every blood mage and abomnation in circle?
Circle was corrupted even leader was as i said circle mages (many of them) before roa pointed that perfectly and situation during RoA even better... 
Anders attack was only excuse for meredith i won't lie she wanted just slain mages but as i said she might done that for wrong reasons but she wasn't wrong about mages what makes her roa pretty much justified by chantry law even DG said that... 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 15 février 2014 - 10:37 .

[cjones91]

<p>

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

KaiserShep wrote... However many templars are corrupt is actually irrelevant. If the person giving the orders is corrupt, and the others follow, what is the difference? I'm sure no one cared whether or not an SS guard was corrupt or evil.

Meredith wasn't corrupted only insane templar that tried deal with insane and corrupted mages but no one belived her because well she was insane but still right. Corruption is everywhere but corrupted mages can do far much damage than corrupted templar... i would say that more important is whether templar is competent their job is control and watch mages not hug them that is most important...  

KaiserShep wrote... You say this as though they can't be both. A police force, left to abuse its authority, can definitely be the oppressors as well.

There were only 2 known persons as abusers as far i renember meredith was doing her job controling mage badly but still she did nothing above her authority and well to be honest she was right about mages...

Tell that to the people whose village is being razed by a rogue faction of templars.Also Meredith usurped the Viscount seat and refused to let the nobles choose a new one.She also had relatives of mages or anyone who opposed her killed.</p>

Modifié par cjones91, 15 février 2014 - 10:44 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

cjones91 wrote...

Tell that to the people whose village is being raised by a rogue faction of templars.Also Meredith usurped the Viscount suit and refused to let the nobles choose a new one.She also had relatives of mages or anyone who opposed her killed.

Are you talking about red templars sorry for me they aren't templars and for many others as well...
Well but i will take dawn red templars as they are threat as well as mages but still abominations are bigger unless they state otherwise.

She shoulnd't take power in kirkwall...

about relatives she was right because some of them were helping mages and were idiots by creating opportunity for abomnations so such peoples would lead to destruction not only city but also much more... 

[KaiserShep]

There is no excuse for executing innocent people for what might happen. I know this is a fantasy setting and all, but I find it a little odd how easy it is to excuse tyranny by vilifying its victims. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 15 février 2014 - 10:48 .

[cjones91]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Tell that to the people whose village is being raised by a rogue faction of templars.Also Meredith usurped the Viscount suit and refused to let the nobles choose a new one.She also had relatives of mages or anyone who opposed her killed.

Are you talking about red templars sorry for me they aren't templars and for many others as well...
Well but i will take dawn red templars as they are threat as well as mages but still abominations are bigger unless they state otherwise.

She shoulnd't take power in kirkwall...

about relatives she was right because some of them were helping mages and were idiots by creating opportunity for abomnations so such peoples would lead to destruction not only city but also much more... 

So you think it's right for a usurp to go around killing citizens because they let their mage relatives stay for a night?Are you actually serious?What about the nobles Meredith tried to have killed because they opposed her illegal grab for power?

Also abominations are extremely rare and not every mage will turn into one like you seem to think.

Modifié par cjones91, 15 février 2014 - 10:53 .

[Heimdall]

KaiserShep wrote...

There is no excuse for executing innocent people for what might happen. I know this is a fantasy setting and all, but I find it a little odd how easy it is to excuse tyranny by vilifying its victims. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Most people don't excuse the likes of Alrik or Meredith's call for the annulment, but the argue because they see that the argument that mages need some level of regulation and restriction has merit short of those extreme measures.

[TheKomandorShepard]

KaiserShep wrote...

There is no excuse for executing innocent people for what might happen. I know this is a fantasy setting and all, but I find it a little odd how easy it is to excuse tyranny by vilifying its victims. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

You can excuse everything whether you take that excuse it is up to person that excuse is presented...

but when world is burning you don't need excuses...

it is better to be living tyrant and keep safety that dead nice guy who doomed world...

like it or not but thats how world was working and is working now but you may don't know it...

[TheKomandorShepard]

cjones91 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Tell that to the people whose village is being raised by a rogue faction of templars.Also Meredith usurped the Viscount suit and refused to let the nobles choose a new one.She also had relatives of mages or anyone who opposed her killed.

Are you talking about red templars sorry for me they aren't templars and for many others as well...
Well but i will take dawn red templars as they are threat as well as mages but still abominations are bigger unless they state otherwise.

She shoulnd't take power in kirkwall...

about relatives she was right because some of them were helping mages and were idiots by creating opportunity for abomnations so such peoples would lead to destruction not only city but also much more... 

So you think it's right for a usurp to go around killing citizens because they let their mage relatives stay for a night/Are you actually serious?What about the nobles Meredith tried to have killed because they opposed her illegal grab for power?

Also abominations are extremely rare and not every mage will turn into one like you seem to think.

is that right to doom entire world because you wanted give your brother shelter well ask yourself.Well for nobles that is rather norm that they are killing each other for power... besides what noble meredith killed did i missed something?

yes abomnations are such rare that we can't spend day without meeting one a least one

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 15 février 2014 - 10:56 .

[KaiserShep]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
You can excuse everything whether you take that excuse it is up to person that excuse is presented...

It's as though every post you make is designed specifically to make me think of Godwin's law.

but when world is burning you don't need excuses...

Except the world isn't burning.

it is better to be living tyrant and keep safety that dead nice guy who doomed world...

like it or not but thats how world was working and is working now but you may don't know it...

"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."

[TheKomandorShepard]

KaiserShep wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
You can excuse everything whether you take that excuse it is up to person that excuse is presented...

It's as though every post you make is designed specifically to make me think of Godwin's law.

but when world is burning you don't need excuses...

Except the world isn't burning.

it is better to be living tyrant and keep safety that dead nice guy who doomed world...

like it or not but thats how world was working and is working now but you may don't know it...

"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."

Thats very nice...

Yep but it can because of mages...

Well i never siad that i would sacrifice my liberty only mages and well mages have neither so fits

If you want to be safe you have to sacrifice freedom of others it is how society is bulit...

[cjones91]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Tell that to the people whose village is being raised by a rogue faction of templars.Also Meredith usurped the Viscount suit and refused to let the nobles choose a new one.She also had relatives of mages or anyone who opposed her killed.

Are you talking about red templars sorry for me they aren't templars and for many others as well...
Well but i will take dawn red templars as they are threat as well as mages but still abominations are bigger unless they state otherwise.

She shoulnd't take power in kirkwall...

about relatives she was right because some of them were helping mages and were idiots by creating opportunity for abomnations so such peoples would lead to destruction not only city but also much more... 

So you think it's right for a usurp to go around killing citizens because they let their mage relatives stay for a night/Are you actually serious?What about the nobles Meredith tried to have killed because they opposed her illegal grab for power?

Also abominations are extremely rare and not every mage will turn into one like you seem to think.

is that right to doom entire world because you wanted give your brother shelter well ask yourself.Well for nobles that is rather norm that they are killing each other for power... besides what noble meredith killed did i missed something?

yes abomnations are such rare that we can't spend day without meeting one a least one

Blame that one on Gamplay and Story Segregation because several writers have gone on record saying abominations are supposed to be rare and if someone encounter one then it's a tough fight.

[Veruin]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
yes abomnations are such rare that we can't spend day without meeting one a least one

Abominations *are* rare.  The question is, are they rare by default?  Or has the circle been efficient enough to make them rare?

Modifié par Veruin, 15 février 2014 - 11:15 .

[cjones91]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
You can excuse everything whether you take that excuse it is up to person that excuse is presented...

It's as though every post you make is designed specifically to make me think of Godwin's law.

but when world is burning you don't need excuses...

Except the world isn't burning.

it is better to be living tyrant and keep safety that dead nice guy who doomed world...

like it or not but thats how world was working and is working now but you may don't know it...

"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."

Thats very nice...

Yep but it can because of mages...

Well i never siad that i would sacrifice my liberty only mages and well mages have neither so fits

If you want to be safe you have to sacrifice freedom of others it is how society is bulit...

Yeah...those societies are called dictatorships.

[TheKomandorShepard]

cjones91 wrote...
Blame that one on Gamplay and Story Segregation because several writers have gone on record saying abominations are supposed to be rare and if someone encounter one then it's a tough fight.

Even if we will count only plot well they aren't rare...

Veruin wrote...


Abominations *are* rare.  The question is, are they rare by default?  Or has the circle been efficient enough to make them rare?

Circle or not i saw them enough to say that they aren't mostly abomnation are circle mages at least that what we saw...

cjones91 wrote...

Yeah...those societies are called dictatorships.

Not rly every country have laws that restrict your freedom to keep safety in society...  

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well, there are thousands if not tens of thousands of mages, and we only encounter at best a few dozen abominations, then mathematically speaking yes, abominations are extremely rare.

[KaiserShep]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
If you want to be safe you have to sacrifice freedom of others it is how society is bulit...

In other words, sacrificing freedom is fine, so long as it's not yours.

[Asdrubael Vect]

...about Orlais and Tevinter

Orlais is a nation where class and social politics frequently rule the day. As such, the concerns and lives of the various classes can differ greatly. Among the nobility a penchant for high fashion is common. Both men and women wear cosmetics of various kinds, with subtle differences that indicate social standing. In public, they are also prone to wearing very elaborate masks. These are hereditary and identify one's family almost as uniquely as the heraldry on a crest. Servants also wear masks in public that are simpler and not so elaborate as their masters' which indicate the noble household they serve.

 Aristocratic society is vicious and marked by fawning envy to the powerful. Bards often entertain nobles in their courts despite their roles as spies, assassins and saboteurs for their employers who are usually other nobles. Nobles welcome such entertainers with full knowledge that any could be a bard; the thrill of outwitting a spy is a notion the Orlesian aristocracy can hardly resist. 

The lives of Orlesian nobility may give the impression that life is easy and prosperous for all. However, the lives of commoners are often much more difficult, while all aspire to the lives of the noble class. 

Many Orlesians are hardly well-to-do and work as freeholders, or else laborers on another's property, often leading to general discontent and simmering resentment. For a class of people with little besides belief in the Chant of Light to uplift their lives, this discontent may cause friction with those seen as having unfair privileges or else upsetting their routine or religious beliefs, such as mages.

Furthermore,Orlesian commoners are at the mercy of the nation's needs in a way that the nobility, and even the Chantry (including the Circle of Magi and Templar Order), are not. During war times, press gangs led by the nobility commonly force Orlesian peasants into military service willingly or no.

Those who are not conscripted may be left starving by the demands of the army or else taken as slaves by opportunistic bandits.
Additionally, the chevaliers are allowed great liberties with commoners, up to and including murder and sexual assault.

The lot of elves in Orlais is unique as well, even from the common classes. Servitude, often bearing little difference from outlawed slavery), is the existence of many.

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 15 février 2014 - 11:54 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Well, there are thousands if not tens of thousands of mages, and we only encounter at best a few dozen abominations, then mathematically speaking yes, abominations are extremely rare.

Well we saw only about 200 mages and many of them were abomnations so were not so rare even if it is 50/200 it is a lot...

KaiserShep wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
If you want to be safe you have to sacrifice freedom of others it is how society is bulit...

In other words, sacrificing freedom is fine, so long as it's not yours.

Well depends what drives you in your life for me it is fine but i guess we are now in morality zone so here depends on your morality...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Well, there are thousands if not tens of thousands of mages, and we only encounter at best a few dozen abominations, then mathematically speaking yes, abominations are extremely rare.

Well we saw only about 200 mages and many of them were abomnations so were not so rare even if it is 50/200 it is a lot...

People have had this conversation with you before. Just because you don't see people doesn't mean thy do not exist. For example Denerim does not only have a population of a couple hundred, half being soldiers. Same as a Circle does not house only a few dozen mages. There's hundreds in each, yet since most are simply living their lives, there is no reason to show them. Now abominations on the other hand are always attached to quests, thus you running into them so often. Again, Gameplay and Story Segregation.