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[dragonflight288]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Audacity taught Merrill blood magic while it was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem. No deal was brokered, and no contract is ever referenced.

Why would Audacity teach Merril blood magic with no conditions or anything in return?

Considering that Marethari ended up freeing Audacity from the totem, I'd say that the story strongly suggests that the entire point was to possess Marethari.

Merrill learned blood magic from Audacity, but she refused to let Audacity free for several years, while Marethari stayed nearby Sundermount (where Audacity could speak to her and show her things, since the short story notated how proximity mattered) and ended up thinking that Audacity would escape through a restored Eluvian, even though the Keeper never mentions how she came to this conclusion.

And makes clear that she had done no research whatsoever, especially since she tells Merrill that the ancient elves would've wanted the eluvians locked away. How would she know that? She's terrified of the eluvians and the darkspawn taint, even in Origins in the Dalish origin. 

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You seem to take issue with how I point out facts in my defense for Merrill, and you basically made up a claim that isn't supported by the story in your codemnation of her. 

When you hear of a Demon teaching Blood Magic for free gimmie a hollor k lob?

The Desire Demon in Origins provides the knowledge of blood magic, if the circumstance is to her benefit (since The Warden can coerce her into it for nothing in return, aside from sparing her life). There's also the simple fact that no one claims that Merrill brokered a deal with Audacity in exchange for blood magic - including Marethari.

Master Warder Z wrote...

Til then every other Demon deal known of in existance in the Lore does my defense more credit then your rebuke ever could. 

Considering how Marethari ultimately let Audacity free, I'd say that the story speaks for itself as to why Audacity taught Merrill blood magic.

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Audacity taught Merrill blood magic while it was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem. No deal was brokered, and no contract is ever referenced.

Why would Audacity teach Merril blood magic with no conditions or anything in return?

Because this is Merrill's M.O. She advocates using demons before they use you, and betraying it. She gives this advice in the Deep Roads with the Hunger Demon, suggesting we hear it's knowledge and once we have what we need we would no longer need to deal with it. This what she suggests with Torpor in Feynriel's dream.

Heck, if we get on Merrill for this, we may as well get on Anders for the same thing. If you agree to hear Torpor out, Anders/Justice throws a fit, but if you tell him you are only using Torpor to get what you want but have no intention of making a deal, you will actually get friendship points with Anders.

I'm not saying this is smart, but I think this is what Merrill did with Audacity. Suggested a possible deal, and turned her back on it before any deal could be made. 

Erm this is magical knowledge she is requesting, not basic information that a tour guide can give out.

The last demon who was holding the secret of blood magic over the PC was asking a pretty steep price for it.

So her apparent M.O or not  a demon does NOTHING for free, Until Bioware confirms otherwise she is like every one else who has ever struck a deal with a demon. Aka a walking, waiting to be possesed meat sack with poor paste in footware.

The Warden can intimidate the Desire demon to leave ConnorAND teach him/her blood magic, so it is possible.

Your arguments make sense on the surface, but they aren't backed up by any evidence from the game or from Merrill's short story. 

...Did you serious just even VAGUELY suggest Merril could intimidate a wet kitten little lone a Pride Demon? into teaching her for Free.

And admittedly it wasn't confirmed, to me its all but confirmed because Merril isn't the Warden and she isn't an uber powerful PC therefore she would have to play ball with a demon.

And the evidence is there if you look for it, Merril worrying about possesion makes far more sense if a connection via a deal was struck, Further more considering the information she gleaned out of the demon from the history and process of construction of the mirror i hardly doubt she gained all that knowledge, a adapt usage of blood magic and the knowledge that sought ALL from disception.

Mainly because even that Sloth demon was witty enough to catch on to Hawke when he was attempting to wake up the dreamer instead of allowing the demon to possess him.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You seem to take issue with how I point out facts in my defense for Merrill, and you basically made up a claim that isn't supported by the story in your codemnation of her. 

When you hear of a Demon teaching Blood Magic for free gimmie a hollor k lob?

The Desire Demon in Origins provides the knowledge of blood magic, if the circumstance is to her benefit (since The Warden can coerce her into it for nothing in return, aside from sparing her life). There's also the simple fact that no one claims that Merrill brokered a deal with Audacity in exchange for blood magic - including Marethari.

Master Warder Z wrote...

Til then every other Demon deal known of in existance in the Lore does my defense more credit then your rebuke ever could. 

Considering how Marethari ultimately let Audacity free, I'd say that the story speaks for itself as to why Audacity taught Merrill blood magic.

Again comparing Merril to the Warden.

And that's about as much presumption as my own theory of events.

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aside from the fact that there's absolutely no evidence that Merrill made any deal with Audacity - especially since Marethari claims that Audacity would try to possess her by escaping through the restored Eluvian.

You seem to be condemning Merrill because of information you basically made up to vilify her. 

And there is no evidence suggesting it was done for free and there is no evidence suggesting there wasn't a connection made in fact apparently even Merril feared said connection enough to fear possesion.

Anyone can be possessed when a demon is free in the real world, as Sophia Dryden proved. Merrill being cautious about Audacity being free of it's prison means simply that.

Master Warder Z wrote...

To that point You seem to be defending with presumption and your own spin on the lore.

About the same as what i do to basically point out her out as an abomination to be. 

I'm not the one making up facts and pretending as though they condemn Merrill. There's absolutely no evidence that Merrill made a contract with Audacity, and considering that it was trapped in a totem in the real world for over a millennia, it's not even in a position to enforce any deal. Absolutely no one says or implies that Merrill made a deal with Audacity - no one, not even Marethari.

[dragonflight288]

Again comparing Merril to the Warden.

And that's about as much presumption as my own theory of events.

I was saying that it's possible, not that she's Warden level epic.

Add in that since no one says, not even her own clan, that Merrill made a deal to learn blood magic, merely that she learned it from Audacity, there is no evidence to support your assertions.

[Master Warder Z_]

Your opinion.

Not mine.

Making up? What exactly have i made up Lob? Merril does fear possession, Demon's aren't known for being charitable and there is nothing within the game to dismiss a deal being forged.

Honestly this topic is getting really dull, perhaps the thread should return to topic; All this debating over Merril isn't my bag.

Don't care for her, Her people, Or her accent.

[dragonflight288]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Your opinion.

Not mine.

Making up? What exactly have i made up Lob? Merril does fear possession, Demon's aren't known for being charitable and there is nothing within the game to dismiss a deal being forged.

Honestly this topic is getting really dull, perhaps the thread should return to topic; All this debating over Merril isn't my bag.

Don't care for her, Her people, Or her accent.

Well then, it seems we have an uneven presentation of the Merrill lovers/haters conflict going on. 

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Again comparing Merril to the Warden.

Audacity is trapped in a totem by ancient, powerful magic, and can only be released intentionally. Absolutely no one says Merrill made a deal with Audacity. In fact, in Origins, The Warden had to get the Desire Demon to void the contract in order to release it's hold on Connor, or destroy it in the Fade.

Master Warder Z wrote...

And that's about as much presumption as my own theory of events. 

No, I'm pointing out the facts of the story, including dialogue mentioned by the characters. There's a difference. Marethari claimed in Act II that Merrill will bring back the taint, and she said that Audacity would escape through the restored Eluvian in Act III.

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Again comparing Merril to the Warden.

And that's about as much presumption as my own theory of events.

I was saying that it's possible, not that she's Warden level epic.

Add in that since no one says, not even her own clan, that Merrill made a deal to learn blood magic, merely that she learned it from Audacity, there is no evidence to support your assertions.

A Novice Mage overpowering a pride demon? Good to know you view her so highly that directly after traveling to Kirkwall she is capable of overpowering a demon in a mental battle that many senior level enchanters cannot compete with.

And i'l say this about my assertions.

There is absolutely nothing there to deny them either.

And given this is a demon, its far more likely in my eye.

[The Hierophant]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Because this is Merrill's M.O. She advocates using demons before they use you, and betraying it. She gives this advice in the Deep Roads with the Hunger Demon, suggesting we hear it's knowledge and once we have what we need we would no longer need to deal with it. This what she suggests with Torpor in Feynriel's dream.

Heck, if we get on Merrill for this, we may as well get on Anders for the same thing. If you agree to hear Torpor out, Anders/Justice throws a fit, but if you tell him you are only using Torpor to get what you want but have no intention of making a deal, you will actually get friendship points with Anders.

DA2 Anders is a hypocrite though.

I'm not saying this is smart, but I think this is what Merrill did with Audacity. Suggested a possible deal, and turned her back on it before any deal could be made.

Despite Audacity being at a disadvantage, it teaching Merril BM without any sort of failsafe in place seems foolish.

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Your opinion.

Not mine.

Considering there's no proof that Merrill made a contract with Audacity, it's certainly not an opinion.

Master Warder Z wrote...

Making up? What exactly have i made up Lob? Merril does fear possession, Demon's aren't known for being charitable and there is nothing within the game to dismiss a deal being forged.

Merrill is concerned that Audacity is free. Why wouldn't she be concerned? Anyone can be possessed when a demon is loose in the real world. Even non-mage Sophia Dryden was possessed. Animals, trees, people, corpses - all can be possessed. Merrill was right to be concerned when she notes that when she tried to speak to Audacity, it was silent.

Master Warder Z wrote...

Don't care for her, Her people, Or her accent.

I've liked her VA since Torchwood. Nothing wrong with Welsh accent.

[Master Warder Z_]

There is also nothing there to dismiss that opinion though either.

So your opinion disagrees with my own and therefore "I'm making something up?" That seems ever so slightly biased Lob

And i didn't care for Torchwood either.

[LobselVith8]

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I'm not saying this is smart, but I think this is what Merrill did with Audacity. Suggested a possible deal, and turned her back on it before any deal could be made.

Despite Audacity being at a disadvantage, it teaching Merril BM without any sort of failsafe in place seems foolish.

When you consider that the Dalish prohibit schools of magic that involve spirits, and how Marethari doesn't approve of the restoration of the Eluvian, than it seems like Audacity made a smart play. Teach Merrill blood magic so she could cleanse the shard, which would allow her to continue with her efforts to restore the Eluvian, and manipulate nearby Marethari in the process.

And given how the story turned out, it seems to have worked, since Marethari freed Audacity.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I'm not saying this is smart, but I think this is what Merrill did with Audacity. Suggested a possible deal, and turned her back on it before any deal could be made.

Despite Audacity being at a disadvantage, it teaching Merril BM without any sort of failsafe in place seems foolish.

When you consider that the Dalish prohibit schools of magic that involve spirits, and how Marethari doesn't approve of the restoration of the Eluvian, than it seems like Audacity made a smart play. Teach Merrill blood magic so she could cleanse the shard, which would allow her to continue with her efforts to restore the Eluvian, and manipulate nearby Marethari in the process.

And given how the story turned out, it seems to have worked, since Marethari freed Audacity.

Lovely string of conjecture you have there.

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

There is also nothing there to dismiss that opinion though either.

So your opinion disagrees with my own and therefore "I'm making something up?" That seems ever so slightly biased Lob

And i didn't care for Torchwood either.

Making a claim that isn't supported by the story is hardly an opinion. If I say that Meredith made a deal with a demon, that doesn't make it true simply because no one can prove it didn't happen. There's nothing in the story to support it, and making an unsupported claim to vilify a character only does precisely that.

[Master Warder Z_]

Definition of opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

And Merril delt with a demon this confirmed, She recieved something from said demon.

It is a tiny leap from there to assume a deal was made and considering this is how 99% of interactions with demons go when it reaches that stage, its hardly anything but a safe assumption, unsupported certainly.

But not as you keep whining it to be, Your acting as if the situation is the most implausible outcome when in truth its about the only outcome in DA besides the demon seeking to posses right away.

The Demon wasn't defeated by Merril therefore she didn't best it, She gleaned something from it therefore a deal is likely the outcome, Unless if you think Merril magically just stumbled upon blood magic and and the tomes of knowledge she needed in discourse from the demon. Which to me is more of a leap of faith then assuming what happens in reality, more oft then not.

Modifié par Master Warder Z , 20 février 2014 - 08:47 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Oh look, the Merrill Love brigade is here... I guess talking about Templars and mages gets boring anyway....

[KaiserShep]

Well, she's better than Anders.

[AresKeith]

KaiserShep wrote...

Well, she's better than Anders.

That I agree with 

[Master Warder Z_]

KaiserShep wrote...

Well, she's better than Anders.

...I guess.

[Mistic]

LobselVith8 wrote...

When you consider that the Dalish prohibit schools of magic that involve spirits, and how Marethari doesn't approve of the restoration of the Eluvian, than it seems like Audacity made a smart play. Teach Merrill blood magic so she could cleanse the shard, which would allow her to continue with her efforts to restore the Eluvian, and manipulate nearby Marethari in the process.

I didn't know that piece of information. Did it appear in World of Thedas? (Damn, that means that if I roleplay a Dalish mage I'll have to forget about spirit spells).

Demonic possession is the greatest danger about mages. The Chantry has the Circles, and I suppose in Tevinter too, the Qunari treat their mages as walking bombs and the Dalish seem to be paranoid. However, since our "awesome mage protagonists" are too badass for demons, the player never realizes the true danger of being a mage. That's a problem in the presentation of both parties. I think Asunder does a better job in that regard.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Oh look, the Merrill Love brigade is here... I guess talking about Templars and mages gets boring anyway....

Well, we are discussing a mage here, so it's certainly fair game.

[Rusty Sandusky]

AresKeith wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Well, she's better than Anders.

That I agree with 

Yeah but being glassed in the face is still better than Anders.

[LobselVith8]

Misticsan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

When you consider that the Dalish prohibit schools of magic that involve spirits, and how Marethari doesn't approve of the restoration of the Eluvian, than it seems like Audacity made a smart play. Teach Merrill blood magic so she could cleanse the shard, which would allow her to continue with her efforts to restore the Eluvian, and manipulate nearby Marethari in the process. 

I didn't know that piece of information. Did it appear in World of Thedas? (Damn, that means that if I roleplay a Dalish mage I'll have to forget about spirit spells).

Yes, it was mentioned in WoT, since they view all spirits as dangerous. Dalish magic has also adapted to their current way of life among nature.

Misticsan wrote...

Demonic possession is the greatest danger about mages. The Chantry has the Circles, and I suppose in Tevinter too, the Qunari treat their mages as walking bombs and the Dalish seem to be paranoid. However, since our "awesome mage protagonists" are too badass for demons, the player never realizes the true danger of being a mage. That's a problem in the presentation of both parties. I think Asunder does a better job in that regard.

Merrill does mention that the clans kill abominations if a mage gets possessed, so the People are aware of the dangers of possession. It doesn't seem to change their view on mages, though, since magic is seen as a gift of the Creators. I suppose that might factor into the decision of what some elven mages might do in post-Asunder Thedas, since an elven mage found sanctuary with Ariane's clan (and Aneirin was rescued by Zathrian's clan when he fled the Circle as a boy).