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[Jedi Master of Orion]

You know I think one of the other things about DA 2 was that many of the Templar NPCS that were involved in the "main" quest felt like they had one dimensional perspectives on the larger issue of mages. Most of them either fell into the camp of "MUST KEEP MAGES DOWN" or "Oh no! We can't do this anymore!"

Thrask is the closest thing we had to having a nuanced perspective on the templars' practices and necessity at first and even he seemed to degenerate into "MEREDITH MUST GO. NO MATTER WHAT!"

Even Anders for all his prattle about the plight of mages and all the times he seemed like he had a one track mind, had extra layers to him. His hatred of blood mages and demons gave him extra dimension when the templar/mage conflict ever arose. That and the fact that he found himself riddled with doubt at various points in the story and at one point even considers a peaceful solution with the Grand Cleric.

Meredith does not have the same portrayal. All the times we get hints about her having more depth than just "RAR! MAGES DANGEROUS! CRUSH ENEMIES!" it's either entirely offscreen (rejecting the Tranquil solution) or you only find out about it certain circumstances (hearing about her backstory) or immediately undermined by her mad paranoia (Like when she sends you to investigate whether Orsino was involved with blood magic).

Perhaps if we'd seen her express some degree of doubt in her path or shown her being anywhere near as dedicated to the her mandate to protect mages as her mandate to guard against them, or even showing some degree of sorrow for any harsh policies she believes are necessary, then she'd feel like a sympathetic face for the templar cause.

As it is, she didn't feel like a grim guardian of the city pushed over the edge by Kirkwall's madness, more like she was looking for a fight for years and finally got her chance with Anders' terrorism. She seemed like she was set up as an antagonist from the start.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 21 février 2014 - 12:55 .

[Grieving Natashina]

The Hierophant wrote...

Starsyn if playing as a non mage Hawke with Bethany in the CoM, Anders instigates Act 3's conflict knowing full well that Bethany could end up as a casualty. Regardless of anyone's opinion on the matter this clearly shows his complete disregard for Bethany's safety and Hawke's feelings towards his surviving family.

I personally believe that Anders trusted Hawke to get Bethany out.   While I respect your views, I'm afraid I will not agree with you.  You see Anders as a crazed immoral bad guy.  Nothing wrong with that.  I see him as someone that was empathic, but believed in freedom at all costs.  

From what I can tell (both as friends and rivals with him,) he thought he was going to be the only one killed.   We have no evidence that Bethany spent any time in the Chantry (that's if she joined the CoM and not the Wardens,) so Anders wasn't putting her directly at risk.

No one, including Anders, could have dreamed that Meredith would call for the RoA.  You know, with the criminal standing right there and all.  Anders thought he be executed and that would be it.  I think he underestimated how truly bat guano crazy Meredith had become.

I think both of them had gone completely stupid by the end of the game.  

[Jedi Master of Orion]

No based on his reaction, I think the Right of Annulment was exactly what he intended to happen. He was not surprised when Meredith ordered all mages executed. And His whole plan to change the world depended on the templars trying to slaughter mages in order to provoke open warfare. He even says "It can't be stopped now. You have to choose" to Hawke.

And when Orsino says "You fool, you've doomed us all!" He just responds "We were already doomed. I for one would rather go down fighting." As if he expects all mages to share his "FREEDOM OR DEATH" philosophy.

If Meredith had simply executed him, then it wouldn't have changed the world like he wanted.

"So you start a massacre to prove a point?"

"I'm not proving a point, I'm changing a world."

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 21 février 2014 - 01:00 .

[Martyr1777]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Audacity taught Merrill blood magic while it was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem. No deal was brokered, and no contract is ever referenced.

Why would Audacity teach Merril blood magic with no conditions or anything in return?

Considering that Marethari ended up freeing Audacity from the totem, I'd say that the story strongly suggests that the entire point was to possess Marethari.

Merrill learned blood magic from Audacity, but she refused to let Audacity free for several years, while Marethari stayed nearby Sundermount (where Audacity could speak to her and show her things, since the short story notated how proximity mattered) and ended up thinking that Audacity would escape through a restored Eluvian, even though the Keeper never mentions how she came to this conclusion.

I like this point of view... ever consider Audacity was playing on Marethan's audacity that she knew better then Merrill and hence Merrill was never the target at all.

I mean a Demon would like a more powerful keeper than a student I would expect.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yeah. While I see Ander's side, he knew with Merdith's paranoia, plus her trying to get a RoA anyway, would be pushed over the edge by his actions as well as eliminate the only obstacle in her desire to get the RoA accepted, Elthina.

[KaiserShep]

The Hierophant wrote...

Starsyn if playing as a non mage Hawke with Bethany in the CoM, Anders instigates Act 3's conflict knowing full well that Bethany could end up as a casualty. Regardless of anyone's opinion on the matter this clearly shows his complete disregard for Bethany's safety and Hawke's feelings towards his surviving family.

This is pretty much why my Hawke kills him with no regret. 

[MisterJB]

Starsyn wrote...
No one, including Anders, could have dreamed that Meredith would call for the RoA.  You know, with the criminal standing right there and all.  Anders thought he be executed and that would be it.  I think he underestimated how truly bat guano crazy Meredith had become.

I think both of them had gone completely stupid by the end of the game.  

Anders did not attempt to instigate dialogue about both the necessity and injustice of the Circle by blowing up a building. He wished for violence to end the stalemate and that is why he removed the one person that was preventing Meredith from calling for the RoA. It was a typical "Give them freedom or give them death" mentality.
Basically, his plan was to turn the Circle of Kirkwall into unwilling martyrs so the others might rise.
He even says "this is worse than I expected" which indicates that he knew very well what the results would be but that he did not expect for it to be that brutal.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Martyr1777 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Audacity taught Merrill blood magic while it was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem. No deal was brokered, and no contract is ever referenced.

Why would Audacity teach Merril blood magic with no conditions or anything in return?

Considering that Marethari ended up freeing Audacity from the totem, I'd say that the story strongly suggests that the entire point was to possess Marethari.

Merrill learned blood magic from Audacity, but she refused to let Audacity free for several years, while Marethari stayed nearby Sundermount (where Audacity could speak to her and show her things, since the short story notated how proximity mattered) and ended up thinking that Audacity would escape through a restored Eluvian, even though the Keeper never mentions how she came to this conclusion.

I like this point of view... ever consider Audacity was playing on Marethan's audacity that she knew better then Merrill and hence Merrill was never the target at all.

I mean a Demon would like a more powerful keeper than a student I would expect.

That is a good line of thinking. Another point of evidence for it is that Marethari is not only more powerful than Merrill, but is also in a position of leadership over an entire clan of Dalish elves while Merrill is an outcast. That gives Audacity not only more power from his host, but also people to control and even bring his minions into the World of the Living by having them possessed.

[Grieving Natashina]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Yeah. While I see Ander's side, he knew with Merdith's paranoia, plus her trying to get a RoA anyway, would be pushed over the edge by his actions as well as eliminate the only obstacle in her desire to get the RoA accepted, Elthina.

Hmm, I suppose you're right.  Still, I don't think Anders was this huge monster that some folks make him out to be.  I still maintain that he trusted Hawke to get Bethany out.  

More proof that we need some more shades of grey in the story of this stupid war between two groups that usually don't wear pants.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well, I think he would have ideally preferred that Hawke save as many mages as he or she could. But his plan still hinged on deliberately endangering the Cirlce, knowing many would die. And that even if they had been completely wiped out, to him it was preferable to the Circle existing.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 21 février 2014 - 01:06 .

[Xilizhra]

Mike Laidlaw, Creative Director (DA3): Merrill fixing the mirror was a ‘bad call’

It's true. Merrill underestimated the depths to which Marethari would sink, and just how poisonous her own clan was. Sometimes the world isn't ready to be helped. Luckily, Merrill figures this out at the end of the friend arc.

Tragic, Merrill's mistakes cost her clan so much. She should have know fixing the mirror was a bad call.

She was far too trusting of her people. Although what she did cost her clan nothing whatsoever, it was their reaction that led to their loss.

You know I think one of the other things about DA 2 was that many of the Templar NPCS that were involved in the "main" quest felt like they had one dimensional perspectives on the larger issue of mages. Most of them either fell into the camp of "MUST KEEP MAGES DOWN" or "Oh no! We can't do this anymore!"

Thrask is the closest thing we had to having a nuanced perspective on the templars' practices and necessity at first and even he seemed to degenerate into "MEREDITH MUST GO. NO MATTER WHAT!"

Even Anders for all his prattle about the plight of mages and all the times he seemed like he had a one track mind, had extra layers to him. His hatred of blood mages and demons gave him extra dimension when the templar/mage conflict ever arose. That and the fact that he found himself riddled with doubt at various points in the story and at one point even considers a peaceful solution with the Grand Cleric.

Meredith does not have the same portrayal. All the times we get hints about her having more depth than just "RAR! MAGES DANGEROUS! CRUSH ENEMIES!" it's either entirely offscreen (rejecting the Tranquil solution) or you only find out about it certain circumstances (hearing about her backstory) or immediately undermined by her mad paranoia (Like when she sends you to investigate whether Orsino was involved with blood magic).

Perhaps if we'd seen her express some degree of doubt in her path or shown her being anywhere near as dedicated to the her mandate to protect mages as her mandate to guard against them, or even showing some degree of sorrow for any harsh policies she believes are necessary, then she'd feel like a sympathetic face for the templar cause.

As it is, she didn't feel like a grim guardian of the city pushed over the edge by Kirkwall's madness, more like she was looking for a fight for years and finally got her chance with Anders' terrorism. She seemed like she was set up as an antagonist from the start.

I think you're looking for Cullen.

No based on his reaction, I think the Right of Annulment was exactly what he intended to happen. He was not surprised when Meredith ordered all mages executed. And His whole plan to change the world depended on the templars trying to slaughter mages in order to provoke open warfare. He even says "It can't be stopped now. You have to choose" to Hawke.

And when Orsino says "You fool, you've doomed us all!" He just responds "We were already doomed. I for one would rather go down fighting." As if he expects all mages to share his "FREEDOM OR DEATH" philosophy.

The point, specifically, is that the templars will grind the mages down to nothing at the end in any case, and no one can or will stop it peacefully; it has to come to violence now because there's no other way that the mages will ever be free. It's not that he's making the mages into unwilling martyrs, it's that he sees that they're already martyrs (at least in Kirkwall) and all that can be done is to choose the manner of their potential martyrdom.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Starsyn wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Yeah. While I see Ander's side, he knew with Merdith's paranoia, plus her trying to get a RoA anyway, would be pushed over the edge by his actions as well as eliminate the only obstacle in her desire to get the RoA accepted, Elthina.

Hmm, I suppose you're right.  Still, I don't think Anders was this huge monster that some folks make him out to be.  I still maintain that he trusted Hawke to get Bethany out.  

More proof that we need some more shades of grey in the story of this stupid war between two groups that usually don't wear pants.

Oh, I'm sure Anders had many plans in place depending on the outcome of the event, from the Circle being completely wiped out to the Circle actually holding it's own and possibly scattering to the four winds and everything in between. 

[Grieving Natashina]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well, I think he would have preferred that Hawke save as many mages as he or she could. But his plan still hinged on deliberately endangering the Cirlce, knowing many would die.

Like I stated above, I do see where you guys are coming from.

Okay, my Inquisitior is going to be a seamstress at this rate.  Let's get some damned pants on the Templars and Mages!  That'll help!

<thud>  Okay, new information really needs to come out...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Actually I had a paragraph in there about Cullen but accidentally deleted it. Simply put I hear that he was supposed to be the moderate middle ground templar but he just seemed more like a slightly less uncompromising version of Meredith without the insanity. He was promoted because he shared many of her perspectives and He supported her almost right until the very end.

[Xilizhra]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Actually I had a paragraph in there about Cullen but accidentally deleted it. Simply put I hear that he was supposed to be the moderate middle ground templar but he just seemed more like a slightly less uncompromising version of Meredith without the insanity. He was promoted because he shared many of her perspectives and He supported her almost right until the very end.

That's true, Cullen is still a titanic jerk, but he lacks Meredith's particular brand of craziness and has some sympathetic moments, so I thought he'd work with you.

Then there's Thrask, who wants the Circle to keep existing but prefers symbiosis between the mages and templars rather than the current power structure.

[Martyr1777]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

No based on his reaction, I think the Right of Annulment was exactly what he intended to happen. He was not surprised when Meredith ordered all mages executed. And His whole plan to change the world depended on the templars trying to slaughter mages in order to provoke open warfare. He even says "It can't be stopped now. You have to choose" to Hawke.

And when Orsino says "You fool, you've doomed us all!" He just responds "We were already doomed. I for one would rather go down fighting." As if he expects all mages to share his "FREEDOM OR DEATH" philosophy.

If Meredith had simply executed him, then it wouldn't have changed the world like he wanted.

"So you start a massacre to prove a point?"

"I'm not proving a point, I'm changing a world."

Going back to things a number of pages ago..

This is exactly why I don't see Rhys as an extremist as opposed to Adrian, Anders or Fiona. Granted Anders was the must extreme of them all but everyone in DA2 was over the top, we know this. Fiona while mainly just being outspoken I think we know enough about her personality to know she is an extremist, just a very intelligent one. She knows how to play her cards to get things working in her favor instead of just throwing sh*t at the fan.

Thats exactly what she did with the Conclave, she pushed the limits to get a reaction from Lambert and the templars, which in turn would get the mages more angry. She wanted to start a chain of events that would echo around Thedas. Granted I think she got far more then she expected, but she did get -EXACTLY- what she wanted.

Rhys never wanted that... only reason he voted for seperation was he understood they were past the point of no return. I think it was quite obvious he didn't want to make that call but he understood it was the only one he could make.

That's not an Extremist, thats a realist, and aside from a few times when he got his feathers ruffled he was always about peaceful change, he wasn't driven by the anger and passion Adrian and Fiona were.

[The Hierophant]

Martyr1777 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that Marethari ended up freeing Audacity from the totem, I'd say that the story strongly suggests that the entire point was to possess Marethari.

Merrill learned blood magic from Audacity, but she refused to let Audacity free for several years, while Marethari stayed nearby Sundermount (where Audacity could speak to her and show her things, since the short story notated how proximity mattered) and ended up thinking that Audacity would escape through a restored Eluvian, even though the Keeper never mentions how she came to this conclusion.

I like this point of view... ever consider Audacity was playing on Marethari's audacity that she knew better then Merrill and hence Merrill was never the target at all.

I mean a Demon would like a more powerful keeper than a student I would expect.

I like this theory as Audacity's demeanor makes more sense now, but people should still be wary of Merrill since Marethari trained her

[Xilizhra]

The Hierophant wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that Marethari ended up freeing Audacity from the totem, I'd say that the story strongly suggests that the entire point was to possess Marethari.

Merrill learned blood magic from Audacity, but she refused to let Audacity free for several years, while Marethari stayed nearby Sundermount (where Audacity could speak to her and show her things, since the short story notated how proximity mattered) and ended up thinking that Audacity would escape through a restored Eluvian, even though the Keeper never mentions how she came to this conclusion.

I like this point of view... ever consider Audacity was playing on Marethari's audacity that she knew better then Merrill and hence Merrill was never the target at all.

I mean a Demon would like a more powerful keeper than a student I would expect.

I like this theory as Audacity's demeanor makes more sense now, but people should still be wary of Merrill since Marethari trained her

She's probably improved by leaving Marethari's influence for six years.

[Grieving Natashina]

I have done it! Behold, the Pants of Peace!



Okay, okay, I'll quit derailing the thread. I'll be back when I have something of use to add.

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...
She's probably improved by leaving Marethari's influence for six years.

If she's still stubborn like Marethari while still having a messiah complex, i doubt it.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 21 février 2014 - 01:29 .

[Xilizhra]

[quote]The Hierophant wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

She's probably improved by leaving Marethari's influence for six years.[/quote]
If she's still stubborn like Marethari while still having a messiah complex, i doubt it.[/quote]
Maybe, but she won't outright sell herself to demons because her own student is rocking the boat too much, I'm reasonably sure.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Martyr1777 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

No based on his reaction, I think the Right of Annulment was exactly what he intended to happen. He was not surprised when Meredith ordered all mages executed. And His whole plan to change the world depended on the templars trying to slaughter mages in order to provoke open warfare. He even says "It can't be stopped now. You have to choose" to Hawke.

And when Orsino says "You fool, you've doomed us all!" He just responds "We were already doomed. I for one would rather go down fighting." As if he expects all mages to share his "FREEDOM OR DEATH" philosophy.

If Meredith had simply executed him, then it wouldn't have changed the world like he wanted.

"So you start a massacre to prove a point?"

"I'm not proving a point, I'm changing a world."

Going back to things a number of pages ago..

This is exactly why I don't see Rhys as an extremist as opposed to Adrian, Anders or Fiona. Granted Anders was the must extreme of them all but everyone in DA2 was over the top, we know this. Fiona while mainly just being outspoken I think we know enough about her personality to know she is an extremist, just a very intelligent one. She knows how to play her cards to get things working in her favor instead of just throwing sh*t at the fan.

Thats exactly what she did with the Conclave, she pushed the limits to get a reaction from Lambert and the templars, which in turn would get the mages more angry. She wanted to start a chain of events that would echo around Thedas. Granted I think she got far more then she expected, but she did get -EXACTLY- what she wanted.

Rhys never wanted that... only reason he voted for seperation was he understood they were past the point of no return. I think it was quite obvious he didn't want to make that call but he understood it was the only one he could make.

That's not an Extremist, thats a realist, and aside from a few times when he got his feathers ruffled he was always about peaceful change, he wasn't driven by the anger and passion Adrian and Fiona were.

I'll agree with that. Fiona was an extremist but a very calculated one. She saw the events involving Rhys' supposed murder charge that was actually done by Adrian and Lambert's reactions to various situations, and thus create a plan that utilized these various points to reach her end goal of seperating the Circles from the Chantry. She didn't instigate them like Anders or Adrian, but rather played with the cards that were dealt.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Xilizhra wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Actually I had a paragraph in there about Cullen but accidentally deleted it. Simply put I hear that he was supposed to be the moderate middle ground templar but he just seemed more like a slightly less uncompromising version of Meredith without the insanity. He was promoted because he shared many of her perspectives and He supported her almost right until the very end.

That's true, Cullen is still a titanic jerk, but he lacks Meredith's particular brand of craziness and has some sympathetic moments, so I thought he'd work with you.

Then there's Thrask, who wants the Circle to keep existing but prefers symbiosis between the mages and templars rather than the current power structure.

Well to me, Thrask is someone who can be considered an example of an ideal templar if judged strictly by his motives. But he made some terrible choices. When he seemed to openly ally himself with blood mages and demonologists in order to topple Meredith, it makes him a traitor to what the Order is supposed to stand for.

[Xilizhra]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Actually I had a paragraph in there about Cullen but accidentally deleted it. Simply put I hear that he was supposed to be the moderate middle ground templar but he just seemed more like a slightly less uncompromising version of Meredith without the insanity. He was promoted because he shared many of her perspectives and He supported her almost right until the very end.

That's true, Cullen is still a titanic jerk, but he lacks Meredith's particular brand of craziness and has some sympathetic moments, so I thought he'd work with you.

Then there's Thrask, who wants the Circle to keep existing but prefers symbiosis between the mages and templars rather than the current power structure.

Well to me, Thrask is someone who can be considered an example of an ideal templar if judged strictly by his motives. But he made some terrible choices. When he seemed to openly ally himself with blood mages and demonologists in order to topple Meredith, it makes him a traitor to what the Order is supposed to stand for.

But what the Order stands for is completely terrible, so his treachery is honorable. He just failed to realize that Grace had gotten possessed; if not for that, the whole thing probably would have worked quite well.

[Veruin]

Xilizhra wrote...
But what the Order stands for is completely terrible, so his treachery is honorable. He just failed to realize that Grace had gotten possessed; if not for that, the whole thing probably would have worked quite well.

It's not terrible because you think it's terrible Xil.  The sooner you stop spouting your opinions as if they're holy word, the better.

Modifié par Veruin, 21 février 2014 - 01:43 .