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[Lotion Soronarr]

Martyr1777 wrote...
Rhys never wanted that... only reason he voted for seperation was he understood they were past the point of no return. I think it was quite obvious he didn't want to make that call but he understood it was the only one he could make.

That's not an Extremist, thats a realist, and aside from a few times when he got his feathers ruffled he was always about peaceful change, he wasn't driven by the anger and passion Adrian and Fiona were.

No.
Things were NOT past the point of no return.
The Divine herself was asking mages to provide feedback and propose changes to the Circle.
There was a chance for change right there. An open invitation.

Xilizhra wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Actually
I had a paragraph in there about Cullen but accidentally deleted it.
Simply put I hear that he was supposed to be the moderate middle ground
templar but he just seemed more like a slightly less uncompromising
version of Meredith without the insanity. He was promoted because he
shared many of her perspectives and He supported her almost right until
the very end.

That's true, Cullen is still a titanic jerk,
but he lacks Meredith's particular brand of craziness and has some
sympathetic moments, so I thought he'd work with you.

Then
there's Thrask, who wants the Circle to keep existing but prefers
symbiosis between the mages and templars rather than the current power
structure.

You are both wrong. Cullen is a moderate.
Jumping on the "living weapons" bandwagon, without taking into account the context or Cullens actual behavior.
He treats mages very much like persons.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I mean I always saw the church leading the Crusades in the same way as now say a President is the Commander and Chief of modern militaries. Both are in charge of the whole thing and set objectives, yet leave how to obtain those objectives to their generals since they can't personally lead from the front lines.

Errr... not really.

The President is the Commner in Chief, so he can legally give orders to the military.
He *IS* in charge.
The Church/Pope? The armies marching under the banners of kings aren't theirs to command.
Hell, neither the kings or their armies are even required to follow the objectives.
They do so because it suits them, and refuse to do so because it does not.

It really did happen in history that kinds refused or have stopped half-trough and started doing something different...like sacking a christian town and stealing everything, despite protests from the Church.

Lip Service is not a new concept. It existed back then just as much as now.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'm perfectly fine with Red Templars being crazy or evil templar goons we always fight. As long as they aren't the only major templar faction in the game. And since they are called Red Templars at all, I think that's likely. I expected crazed zealots to come from both mages and templars in the game anyway.

Yes. BioWare loves it's color coding...treating us like children.

Red = bad
Blue = good.

In every BioWare game.

If the Red Templars were all or most of the templars, they wouldn't need to be renamed at all. I mean, I don't think the Templars and Cerberus were equivalent in their respective universes but even if they were, Cerberus wasn't renamed "Red Cerberus" or something in Mass Effect 3.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Look a bit closer.
There is a bit more to Meredith (but not that much and it's well hidden).
At the start she's not that bad. Harsh, but perfectly sane.
At the end, she still feels sympathy for the mages. Evident in the conversation between her, Orsino and Hawke before Anders blows up the chantry.

Yes I know there is, I even described most of it in my post, but when it comes to how much of it we see, it's too well hidden or immediately undermined or offscreen where we don't really get to see it. You bascially can't learn about why she fears mages they way she does unless you're already on her side. I was neutral in my first run so I hadn't laerned  about it until later. That one moment where she admits that not all mages are villians in the Last Straw is virutally the only moment where she seems to soften at all and Anders immediantely killed the moment.

I mean I think a hypothetical scene where Meredith or even Cullen learns about Alrik abusing mages behind her back and reacts with outrage could have been very effective in getting people to empathize with her position more than seeing Anders reading about Alrik's proposal's rejection.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 21 février 2014 - 08:07 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
When we get back to camp, Merethari admits she told the clan that Merrill could bring back the taint and that she was a blood mage...

But the very moment he ran to his death rather than be rescued by Merrill, I felt it was too late for Merrill to return to the clan, as they all now hated her guts and distrusted her, based entirely on Merethari's opinion, which has no evidence supporting it.

Merril DID willingly deal with a demon.
There are no if's and but's here.

There is every reason to distrust her

What it came down to for me was simple. Merrill is a world authority of Eluvians, possibly only Morrigan surpassing her in knowledge for getting one started. She is working at a goal to benefit her people worldwide, she is restoring a part of their heritage. Merrill was following the mission of the Dalish.

Sez who?
She never got it working and was d****** around with it for years.

And since I didn't warn Merethari that Merrill was planning on dealing with the demon, that means that Merethari had become an abomination BEFORE we showed up at the camp. Which means that she believed so much that her way was the right way that she put her entire clan at risk because she couldn't even consider she was wrong about the eluvian.

Actually, we don't know exactly how Metharari got possesed. By the time we're speakign with her, she is already possesed, and thus, the demon could be lying to get to Merril.
It very well could be that the demon overpwoered her.
all we know for sure is that Metharari got possesed.

Merrill says when we first meet her than when a Keeper becomes an abomination, it is the clan's duty to kill him or her.

If they can....

[Lotion Soronarr]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yes. BioWare loves it's color coding...treating us like children.

Red = bad
Blue = good.

In every BioWare game.

If the Red Templars were all or most of the templars, they wouldn't need to be renamed at all. I mean, I don't think the Templars and Cerberus were equivalent in their respective universes but even if they were, Cerberus wasn't renamed "Red Cerberus" or something in Mass Effect 3.

What does that have to do with color-coding?

Evil guys tend to have the red color. Good guys use blue.
Red lightsabers.
Red lasers (reapers) vs blue (good guy ships)
Renegade (red) vs paragon (blue)

That one moment where she admits that not all mages are villians in the Last Straw is virutally the only moment where she seems to soften at all and Anders immediantely killed the moment.

It's her voice in that moment that sells it.
It's almost breaking into a sob, perfectly showing the undercurrent of sympathy and regret.

I mean I think a hypothetical scene where Meredith or even Cullen learns about Alrik abusing mages behind her back and reacts with outrage could have been very effective in getting people to empathize with her position more than seeing Anders reading about Alrik's proposal's rejection.

True, it would have been better.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 21 février 2014 - 08:36 .

[KaiserShep]

Ironically, Cerberus had a basic color scheme that reminded me of daisies. I can't help but feel a bit disappointed in the name "Red Templars", since it seems a bit...simple. Besides, WH40K also has something of the same name. Here's to hoping that there's more to them, rather than it simply being Templars with badness dialed to 11.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 21 février 2014 - 08:42 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well my initial point was that the Red Templars don't bother me because their name implies they are non mainstream. It seemed like you were arguing against that.

Although if we are talking about color coding in this case, Red Templars appear to be named for Red Lyrium. And Blue Lyrium isn't really necessarily associated with being morally good.

KaiserShep wrote...

Besides, WH40K also has something of the same name. Here's to hoping that there's more to them, rather than it simply being Templars with badness dialed to 11.

Also wasn't the Warhammer 40K guys called the Black Templars?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 21 février 2014 - 09:06 .

[The Elder King]

While blue lyrium might not be associated with being morally good, red lyrium is associated with madness, and possibly evil.

[KaiserShep]

Blue lyrium is also mana for junkies. I can see a dwarven Walter White taking advantage of it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yes. BioWare loves it's color coding...treating us like children.

Red = bad
Blue = good.

In every BioWare game.

If the Red Templars were all or most of the templars, they wouldn't need to be renamed at all. I mean, I don't think the Templars and Cerberus were equivalent in their respective universes but even if they were, Cerberus wasn't renamed "Red Cerberus" or something in Mass Effect 3.

What does that have to do with color-coding?

Evil guys tend to have the red color. Good guys use blue.
Red lightsabers.
Red lasers (reapers) vs blue (good guy ships)
Renegade (red) vs paragon (blue)

But in the Decision Chamber, Red represents Destroy the Reapers, an option supported by good guys, while Blue represents Control the Reapers, represented by the bad guys.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ahh... but Red Lyrium is "evil".

Also, black Templars are the "good guys" in 40K.. well, kinda.

[The Elder King]

I'd say Control isn't necessarily bad, considering the two different versions based on your state. Though it's true that it was supported by ME3's antagonist.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

hhh89 wrote...

I'd say Control isn't necessarily bad, considering the two different versions based on your state. Though it's true that it was supported by ME3's antagonist.

That was my point. The blue ending was the one the bad guys were trying to get, thus breaking the universal blue=good guys and red=bad guys thing Lotion was saying.

[Mistic]

I really hope that Inquisition explains how two magical armies (mages and templars) manage to find enough lyrium supplies for themselves. Yes, that includes red lyrium too. Smugglers can provide only so much, since the only approved clients of the dwarves according to the lore are the Chantry and, supposedly, the Tevinter Imperium.

[TEWR]

Merril DID willingly deal with a demon.
There are no if's and but's here.

There is every reason to distrust her

But that's NOT the reason Marethari gave to the clan. The reason Marethari gave to the clan were "She'll bring back the Taint and kill us all!!!!"

Interaction with Demons would've been a more understandable thing to distrust her of as opposed to baseless lies that have no foundation in truth. Understandable, but still erroneous considering WHICH denizen of the Fade Merrill interacted with -- one that was trapped, sundered from the Fade, and severely weakened.

[Invisible Man]

Misticsan wrote...

I really hope that Inquisition explains how two magical armies (mages and templars) manage to find enough lyrium supplies for themselves. Yes, that includes red lyrium too. Smugglers can provide only so much, since the only approved clients of the dwarves according to the lore are the Chantry and, supposedly, the Tevinter Imperium.

so, the imperium is supplying lyrium equally to all the factions so that mages/Templars/red-templars/whoever-else is so very weakened buy deadlocked conflict so they can re-conquer the world? that's a bit of a stretch. or maybe not.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Lyrium! Fine, Dwarven lyrium!

[Mistic]

Invisible Man wrote...

Misticsan wrote...

I really hope that Inquisition explains how two magical armies (mages and templars) manage to find enough lyrium supplies for themselves. Yes, that includes red lyrium too. Smugglers can provide only so much, since the only approved clients of the dwarves according to the lore are the Chantry and, supposedly, the Tevinter Imperium.

so, the imperium is supplying lyrium equally to all the factions so that mages/Templars/red-templars/whoever-else is so very weakened buy deadlocked conflict so they can re-conquer the world? that's a bit of a stretch. or maybe not.

Mm, now that you mention it, it doesn't sound far-fetched. Well, maybe Tevinter wanting to re-conquer the world does sound far-fetched, since they have theirhands full with the Qunari, but supplying mages (or even templars!) to weaken their old rivals, the White Chantry? Sounds plausible.

Although we won't see Tevinter in DA:I, we may come across a quest or two about breaking lines of supplies from Tevinter in order to weaken a keep and conquering it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Merril DID willingly deal with a demon.
There are no if's and but's here.

There is every reason to distrust her

But that's NOT the reason Marethari gave to the clan. The reason Marethari gave to the clan were "She'll bring back the Taint and kill us all!!!!"

Interaction with Demons would've been a more understandable thing to distrust her of as opposed to baseless lies that have no foundation in truth. Understandable, but still erroneous considering WHICH denizen of the Fade Merrill interacted with -- one that was trapped, sundered from the Fade, and severely weakened.

It's both.

Merril knowlingly dealt with a demon and continued dabbling with a tainted artifact. The taint is poorly understood and as seen in Tamlen, a horrible way to go.
You cannot say that Maretharis fears were entirely baseless.
I'd want to get that Mirrior far away from the clan too.

And, dinizes of the Fade are a sneaky lot or unknown power. Weakned? Maybe, maybe not. Weak enough to not pose a threat? Unlikely.

[Xilizhra]

Only if they plan to stick with the imports.
Frak the imports already. The system is more trouble than it's worth.

Ah, so they'll totally disregard one path, like they did in KotOR? Surely that'll please everyone.

You cannot say that Maretharis fears were entirely baseless.

I can and I will. It wasn't tainted, and proving this is absurdly easy: Anders can sense the taint, has a chance to look at the Eluvian, but though he calls Merrill an idiot, he says nothing about sensing any taint, which he would if it was present. Along with, of course, the more obvious fact that it hasn't been calling darkspawn into the Alienage and turning Merrill into a ghoul.

And, dinizes of the Fade are a sneaky lot or unknown power. Weakned? Maybe, maybe not. Weak enough to not pose a threat? Unlikely.

Well, not until Marethari released it. Which may very well have been why Audacity didn't ask for anything in return; seeing the discord growing with Marethari so that it could claim her as its true vessel would have been enough.

[dragonflight288]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Merril DID willingly deal with a demon.
There are no if's and but's here.

There is every reason to distrust her

But that's NOT the reason Marethari gave to the clan. The reason Marethari gave to the clan were "She'll bring back the Taint and kill us all!!!!"

Interaction with Demons would've been a more understandable thing to distrust her of as opposed to baseless lies that have no foundation in truth. Understandable, but still erroneous considering WHICH denizen of the Fade Merrill interacted with -- one that was trapped, sundered from the Fade, and severely weakened.

It's both.

Merril knowlingly dealt with a demon and continued dabbling with a tainted artifact. The taint is poorly understood and as seen in Tamlen, a horrible way to go.
You cannot say that Maretharis fears were entirely baseless.
I'd want to get that Mirrior far away from the clan too.

And, dinizes of the Fade are a sneaky lot or unknown power. Weakned? Maybe, maybe not. Weak enough to not pose a threat? Unlikely.

Name one point in the game. Just one point, where anyone other than Pol in her clan has an issue with her learning blood magic from Audacity. Name just one point where Merethari gets on her case about the demon when she isn't already an abomination. 

Just one. 

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Name one point in the game. Just one point, where anyone other than Pol in her clan has an issue with her learning blood magic from Audacity. Name just one point where Merethari gets on her case about the demon when she isn't already an abomination. 

Just one.

Ummm, the Dalish guy on the way to the Sundermount caverns who confronts Merrill about 30 seconds after you meet her.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Name one point in the game. Just one point, where anyone other than Pol in her clan has an issue with her learning blood magic from Audacity. Name just one point where Merethari gets on her case about the demon when she isn't already an abomination. 

Just one.

Ummm, the Dalish guy on the way to the Sundermount caverns who confronts Merrill about 30 seconds after you meet her.

He says they can't be rid of her soon enough, but offers no reason. I asked for an actual example of someone in her clan using the demon as a reason to not like her or distrust her.

Still, if you return to Sundermount and talk to Master Ilen, he says that many in the clan mourned her leaving. 

It seems that she was still at least liked by some of the clan at the point of her leaving. 

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

He says they can't be rid of her soon enough, but offers no reason. I asked for an actual example of someone in her clan using the demon as a reason to not like her or distrust her.

Still, if you return to Sundermount and talk to Master Ilen, he says that many in the clan mourned her leaving. 

It seems that she was still at least liked by some of the clan at the point of her leaving. 

Oh, you were referring specifically to the demon itself. Yeah, I assumed it was just Marethari and Merrill who knew.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

He says they can't be rid of her soon enough, but offers no reason. I asked for an actual example of someone in her clan using the demon as a reason to not like her or distrust her.

Still, if you return to Sundermount and talk to Master Ilen, he says that many in the clan mourned her leaving. 

It seems that she was still at least liked by some of the clan at the point of her leaving. 

Oh, you were referring specifically to the demon itself. Yeah, I assumed it was just Marethari and Merrill who knew.

If it is just those two who knew, then Merethari saying that Merrill bringing back the taint is a completely ludicrous fallacy that has no basis in reality or any evidence to support it, and makes me wonder on the intelligence of the Sabrae clan since barely a few years earlier Master Ilen was saying how many in the clan mourned Merrill's decision to leave, and it appeared to be common knowledge that was the belief of the Keeper because the distaste for her was already there when we first arrived. 

If the clan didn't know, they have no logical reason to distrust her or hate her, save for baseless lies told by Merethari as a way to guilt-trip Merrill back into the clan.