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[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Yeah the backwoods Knife Ears skulking around the civilized lands like hillbilly rats.

The religion of the Dalish is outlawed by the Chantry, their religious soldiers hunt them down, and we know from Wynne how Andrastian lynch mobs have murdered mages because they blamed them for droughts, the death of a child, or crops failing (which is why Mother Hannah has to assure an Amell Warden that a lynch mob won't try to kill him in Redcliffe). It's not exactly like Andrastian society is tolerant of mages, heathens, or elves.

Master Warder Z wrote...

blah blah, They started a war they couldn't win, Pissed off the wrong people and got run over by an Empire it should have been appeasing rather then invading.

The Dalish historical account - and the elven Warden - credits the Chantry with starting the war, so the Chantry historical account isn't the only version of what happened to the Dales. And I don't think that the Dalish should've capitulated to the Chantry or the Orlesian Empire (the Chantry's symbiotic partner).

Master Warder Z wrote...

And that isn't their fault how? Establishing a relation with the circle would fall to them, not the other way around, Their need for those ancient trinkets may be viable for them but given any other mage likely could merely do a simple scrying ritual or use a scrying stone thus negating the need of ritual therefore i couldn't see much outsider assitance with this task.

Which would be problematic considering a good bit of the lore and knowledge of those stupid mirrors is lost and that's probably for the best considering they tend to end up around the taint and get corrupted, ultimately pointless to bother with them in any case.

Better to build for the future then to dig up trinkets of the past. 

I don't get the argument that the future needs to be forged at the expense of the past.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Yeah the backwoods Knife Ears skulking around the civilized lands like hillbilly rats.

The religion of the Dalish is outlawed by the Chantry, their religious soldiers hunt them down, and we know from Wynne how Andrastian lynch mobs have murdered mages because they blamed them for droughts, the death of a child, or crops failing (which is why Mother Hannah has to assure an Amell Warden that a lynch mob won't try to kill him in Redcliffe). It's not exactly like Andrastian society is tolerant of mages, heathens, or elves.

Master Warder Z wrote...

blah blah, They started a war they couldn't win, Pissed off the wrong people and got run over by an Empire it should have been appeasing rather then invading.

The Dalish historical account - and the elven Warden - credits the Chantry with starting the war, so the Chantry historical account isn't the only version of what happened to the Dales. And I don't think that the Dalish should've capitulated to the Chantry or the Orlesian Empire (the Chantry's symbiotic partner).

Master Warder Z wrote...

And that isn't their fault how? Establishing a relation with the circle would fall to them, not the other way around, Their need for those ancient trinkets may be viable for them but given any other mage likely could merely do a simple scrying ritual or use a scrying stone thus negating the need of ritual therefore i couldn't see much outsider assitance with this task.

Which would be problematic considering a good bit of the lore and knowledge of those stupid mirrors is lost and that's probably for the best considering they tend to end up around the taint and get corrupted, ultimately pointless to bother with them in any case.

Better to build for the future then to dig up trinkets of the past. 

I don't get the argument that the future needs to be forged at the expense of the past.

It makes sense to me then what they should do; Forgo their pointless rebellion, end it  let it die where it should have centuries before hand. Dead Oathes on Dead Lips so to speak.

And i am perfectly sure that the Dalish ignoring Orlais while it burned for two decades in a blight, And then marching on its cities in the aftermath certainly didn't give them justifiable reason to dislike the Dalish and then an excuse to declare war on them.

Their destruction was heralded by their own stupidity.

And Well obviously not.

Your a defender of the Dalish, The only time frame you likely would prefer is one predating the Imperium's destruction of the Elven Kingdoms in the Pre Chantry Days. Its no surprise to me you don't get the grasp of abandoning a past when all it is going to cause more pain and death when submission and acceptance of reality would serve them far better.

Tis a bitter pill to swallow though i suppose, But the Sun Set on their race a long time before the Dragon Age even rolled around.

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Which is why Merrill asked for the Champion's assistance when she suspected that Audacity might not be trapped anymore, since she wanted to speak to it about her inert Eluvian. I don't see how Merrill's interest in technology that could benefit the People, or her caution in having someone she knows is efficient at killing demons accompany her to Sundermount, makes her stupid.

Oh no, Her opinion on Demons, General indiffrence to the suffering she causes,  and usage of blood magic and consorting with demons makes her stupid to me.

Merrill (and the Dalish) see spirits as spirits, rather than Spirits and Demons, the First Children of the Maker and the ones who turned their backs on the Maker in jealousy of humanity, to embody different "sins". Simply because the Dalish don't share Andrastian cultural and religious views on the denizens of the Fade (or the Beyond) isn't a good reason to condemn Merrill as stupid.

Audacity is trapped in a totem, so I don't see the danger to Merrill when she speaks to a spirit that is physically incapable of harming her as long as it's bound to a statute.

Also, blaming Merrill for the actions of other people? Marethari is responsible for her own actions; no one forced her to free Audacity. The Sabrae clan is also responsible for their own actions; no one forced them to try to murder Merrill and Hawke in cold blood.

Last, but not least, blood magic isn't evil, so I don't see the issue with Merrill's use of blood magic, especially when she doesn't abuse her abilities. Some Grey Warden mages use blood magic, the Joining is technically blood magic, and even the phylacteries are a form of blood magic.

Master Warder Z wrote...

Not bringing Hawke there; That was probably the smartest thing she decided to do in seven plus years.

I think you and I have going to have to strongly disagree on Merrill.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Which is why Merrill asked for the Champion's assistance when she suspected that Audacity might not be trapped anymore, since she wanted to speak to it about her inert Eluvian. I don't see how Merrill's interest in technology that could benefit the People, or her caution in having someone she knows is efficient at killing demons accompany her to Sundermount, makes her stupid.

Oh no, Her opinion on Demons, General indiffrence to the suffering she causes,  and usage of blood magic and consorting with demons makes her stupid to me.

Merrill (and the Dalish) see spirits as spirits, rather than Spirits and Demons, the First Children of the Maker and the ones who turned their backs on the Maker in jealousy of humanity, to embody different "sins". Simply because the Dalish don't share Andrastian cultural and religious views on the denizens of the Fade (or the Beyond) isn't a good reason to condemn Merrill as stupid.

Audacity is trapped in a totem, so I don't see the danger to Merrill when she speaks to a spirit that is physically incapable of harming her as long as it's bound to a statute.

Also, blaming Merrill for the actions of other people? Marethari is responsible for her own actions; no one forced her to free Audacity. The Sabrae clan is also responsible for their own actions; no one forced them to try to murder Merrill and Hawke in cold blood.

Last, but not least, blood magic isn't evil, so I don't see the issue with Merrill's use of blood magic, especially when she doesn't abuse her abilities. Some Grey Warden mages use blood magic, the Joining is technically blood magic, and even the phylacteries are a form of blood magic.

Master Warder Z wrote...

Not bringing Hawke there; That was probably the smartest thing she decided to do in seven plus years.

I think you and I have going to have to strongly disagree on Merrill.

Oh i don't buy into either mindset personally but i do view dealing with them as stupidity in some of the highest degree, They always get the better end of the bargain in the end anyway so its a waste of time.

Blaming her for other people? No She cost Varric a fortune to not get murdered and robbed for years upon years, She watched as people were beaten, accosted and robbed and even noted the event with Glee. I could list a few more situations that made me throughly find the character both morally repugnent and annoying but i think we get my point here.

And even if i didn't attach morality to blood magic i still would view it as something taboo, forbidden, etc. And the Joining's usage of blood magic has been a subject of debate since Orgins and i have yet to see any one state that a mortar couldn't acomplish the same task and What Warden's do combating the Blight aka the possible literal ending of the world is diffrent then some random elf's selfish delusion.

To me anyway.

And that seems likely.

[TK514]

Master Warder Z 
I would literally be shocked if there wasn't.

Considering what their normal activities consist of i wouldn't be surprised if there were hidden caches of Apostate Paraphernalia and etc all across Templar and Seeker Strongholds. Some stuff is just too dangerous to not be sealed away forever, some magic is just too corrupt to be taught or encouraged.

I could see anything vaguely relating to blood mages being sealed away, anything relating to demonolgy getting the same treatment, even some stuff relating to the school of spirit for similar reasons.

We already know there are such caches, housed in the secure areas of the Circles themselves.  We encounter one such during the Mage Origin in DA:O while assisting Jowan's with the phylacteries.

It is explicitly stated by Irving and Gregoire that there are things down there too dangerous to ever let out, and Irving point blank asks if you took anything from the Vault(which you could have) and demands that you hand it over unless you lie to him.

[durasteel]

I always thought (and I still do) that Merrill was written as a character with a relatively mild variety of Autism Spectrum Disorder. Her social behavior often displays the "active but odd" characteristics of Asperger syndrome, which would also match her apparent lack of empathy and the way she seems to understand social norms in a theoretical, detached way.

Her companion banter goes way beyond the fish-out-of water experience that another Dalish might experience in a human city, but her cognitive ability, like her ability to research the shard of the Brecilian eluvian to figure out how to cleanse the taint from it and to rebuild the mirror, is clearly working at a very high level.

I can understand why BioWare wouldn't publish the fact that they had included a character in their game who has a pervasive development disorder like Asperger's, but I think it's kind of cool that they did, and that the character is actually one of the more popular in the game without people ever really knowing what makes her different.

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Oh i don't buy into either mindset personally but i do view dealing with them as stupidity in some of the highest degree, They always get the better end of the bargain in the end anyway so its a waste of time.

Audacity was trapped in a totem. I don't think it was in a position to get the better end of anything, until Marethari.

Master Warder Z wrote...

Blaming her for other people? No She cost Varric a fortune to not get murdered and robbed for years upon years, She watched as people were beaten, accosted and robbed and even noted the event with Glee. I could list a few more situations that made me throughly find the character both morally repugnent and annoying but i think we get my point here.

First, Varric protected his friends, which was the point of the scene where it's clear he's paying to protect Anders and his clinic.

Second, Merrill was using dry humor about the situation in the Alienage. She uses dry humor about the horrid condiitons of the Alienage in her scene with llen, when she returns to the Dalish camp. And it's unlikely Merrill could use magic out in the open to help those people without it being an issue, so there's not much she can do about the situation during the day.

Master Warder Z wrote...

And even if i didn't attach morality to blood magic i still would view it as something taboo, forbidden, etc. And the Joining's usage of blood magic has been a subject of debate since Orgins and i have yet to see any one state that a mortar couldn't acomplish the same task and What Warden's do combating the Blight aka the possible literal ending of the world is diffrent then some random elf's selfish delusion.

To me anyway.

And that seems likely. 

I don't think it's selfish for Merrill to want to help her people, regardless of whether or not you support her actions.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Oh i don't buy into either mindset personally but i do view dealing with them as stupidity in some of the highest degree, They always get the better end of the bargain in the end anyway so its a waste of time.

Audacity was trapped in a totem. I don't think it was in a position to get the better end of anything, until Marethari.

Master Warder Z wrote...

Blaming her for other people? No She cost Varric a fortune to not get murdered and robbed for years upon years, She watched as people were beaten, accosted and robbed and even noted the event with Glee. I could list a few more situations that made me throughly find the character both morally repugnent and annoying but i think we get my point here.

First, Varric protected his friends, which was the point of the scene where it's clear he's paying to protect Anders and his clinic.

Second, Merrill was using dry humor about the situation in the Alienage. She uses dry humor about the horrid condiitons of the Alienage in her scene with llen, when she returns to the Dalish camp. And it's unlikely Merrill could use magic out in the open to help those people without it being an issue, so there's not much she can do about the situation during the day.

Master Warder Z wrote...

And even if i didn't attach morality to blood magic i still would view it as something taboo, forbidden, etc. And the Joining's usage of blood magic has been a subject of debate since Orgins and i have yet to see any one state that a mortar couldn't acomplish the same task and What Warden's do combating the Blight aka the possible literal ending of the world is diffrent then some random elf's selfish delusion.

To me anyway.

And that seems likely. 

I don't think it's selfish for Merrill to want to help her people, regardless of whether or not you support her actions.

Yeah you keep bringing that up and i keep pointing out that in essence its still a bad idea, not to mention the summoning of the demon she used to breach the barrier around the graveyard, was that spirit sealed in a totem as well? Or did she conjur a demon from the fade?

You think it was wit? Well i guess you are entitlled to your own perspective. I personally think she enjoyed the sight given that "her dry" Humor actually blew up in her and Hawke's face a few times if Hawke actually tried to do something even vaguely complicated.

So...I kinda of just adopted the position she was mentally reduced in some capacity or something.

It's completely and utterly selfish and that is why there is conflict in their world and there is within our own.

Nationalism is ultimately selfish after all.

And that's what the Dalish are Enthic Nationalists.

.-. So Yeah i wouldn't view her usage of blood magic and Warden usage of it in the same light at all.

[Mistic]

TK514 wrote...

Master Warder Z 
I would literally be shocked if there wasn't.

Considering what their normal activities consist of i wouldn't be surprised if there were hidden caches of Apostate Paraphernalia and etc all across Templar and Seeker Strongholds. Some stuff is just too dangerous to not be sealed away forever, some magic is just too corrupt to be taught or encouraged.

I could see anything vaguely relating to blood mages being sealed away, anything relating to demonolgy getting the same treatment, even some stuff relating to the school of spirit for similar reasons.

We already know there are such caches, housed in the secure areas of the Circles themselves.  We encounter one such during the Mage Origin in DA:O while assisting Jowan's with the phylacteries.

It is explicitly stated by Irving and Gregoire that there are things down there too dangerous to ever let out, and Irving point blank asks if you took anything from the Vault(which you could have) and demands that you hand it over unless you lie to him.

Yeah, I remember that part of the origin too. Well, since Circles are also the headquarters of the templars, it makes sense for them to keep those dangerous artifacts in the tower.

However, I'm still wondering if there's some especialized branch around recovering artifacts. You know, templars or seekers that go around the world recovering the demonic items. A piece of concept art suggests that the Inquisitor may do so.

[TK514]

Misticsan wrote...

Yeah, I remember that part of the origin too. Well, since Circles are also the headquarters of the templars, it makes sense for them to keep those dangerous artifacts in the tower.

However, I'm still wondering if there's some especialized branch around recovering artifacts. You know, templars or seekers that go around the world recovering the demonic items. A piece of concept art suggests that the Inquisitor may do so.

I don't see why there wouldn't be such a branch of the Chantry.  Someone like Genetivi would be invaluable in that line of work.

Modifié par TK514, 21 février 2014 - 09:47 .

[eyezonlyii]

Misticsan wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Master Warder Z 
I would literally be shocked if there wasn't.

Considering what their normal activities consist of i wouldn't be surprised if there were hidden caches of Apostate Paraphernalia and etc all across Templar and Seeker Strongholds. Some stuff is just too dangerous to not be sealed away forever, some magic is just too corrupt to be taught or encouraged.

I could see anything vaguely relating to blood mages being sealed away, anything relating to demonolgy getting the same treatment, even some stuff relating to the school of spirit for similar reasons.

We already know there are such caches, housed in the secure areas of the Circles themselves.  We encounter one such during the Mage Origin in DA:O while assisting Jowan's with the phylacteries.

It is explicitly stated by Irving and Gregoire that there are things down there too dangerous to ever let out, and Irving point blank asks if you took anything from the Vault(which you could have) and demands that you hand it over unless you lie to him.

Yeah, I remember that part of the origin too. Well, since Circles are also the headquarters of the templars, it makes sense for them to keep those dangerous artifacts in the tower.

However, I'm still wondering if there's some especialized branch around recovering artifacts. You know, templars or seekers that go around the world recovering the demonic items. A piece of concept art suggests that the Inquisitor may do so.

I would think so. After all, there was the sister of the Chantry in Denerim in Origins that paid you for finding whatever artifact that was.

[LobselVith8]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Yeah you keep bringing that up and i keep pointing out that in essence its still a bad idea, not to mention the summoning of the demon she used to breach the barrier around the graveyard, was that spirit sealed in a totem as well? Or did she conjur a demon from the fade?

In the scene where Merrill used her own blood to destroy the barrier? I'd like the developers to actually make a final decision as to how blood magic operates, since the implication that a spirit was needed to summon blood magic contradicts the written reason where it's stated that it's appealing for some mages because blood magic is entirely physical, and doesn't require spirits.

Master Warder Z wrote...

You think it was wit? Well i guess you are entitlled to your own perspective. I personally think she enjoyed the sight given that "her dry" Humor actually blew up in her and Hawke's face a few times if Hawke actually tried to do something even vaguely complicated.

Merrill's support when Hawke protects people (i.e. when he says he's willing to help Thrask to prevent mages from getting killed, or when he kills the serial killer who was murdering elven children so that no more children end up getting killed), and her willingness to fight for hundreds of men, women, and children when they are condemned to death, would suggest otherwise.

Master Warder Z wrote...

So...I kinda of just adopted the position she was mentally reduced in some capacity or something.

Like when she was building an Eluvian from her own research, or when she proficiently used blood magic for several years without succumbing to it?

Master Warder Z wrote...

It's completely and utterly selfish and that is why there is conflict in their world and there is within our own.

Nationalism is ultimately selfish after all.

And that's what the Dalish are Enthic Nationalists.

.-. So Yeah i wouldn't view her usage of blood magic and Warden usage of it in the same light at all.

Merrill and the Dalish are a group of people who want to follow the Creators, maintain their culture, and live without being killed for being heathens, or having free mages in their midst.

[Master Warder Z_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Yeah you keep bringing that up and i keep pointing out that in essence its still a bad idea, not to mention the summoning of the demon she used to breach the barrier around the graveyard, was that spirit sealed in a totem as well? Or did she conjur a demon from the fade?

In the scene where Merrill used her own blood to destroy the barrier? I'd like the developers to actually make a final decision as to how blood magic operates, since the implication that a spirit was needed to summon blood magic contradicts the written reason where it's stated that it's appealing for some mages because blood magic is entirely physical, and doesn't require spirits.

Master Warder Z wrote...

You think it was wit? Well i guess you are entitlled to your own perspective. I personally think she enjoyed the sight given that "her dry" Humor actually blew up in her and Hawke's face a few times if Hawke actually tried to do something even vaguely complicated.

Merrill's support when Hawke protects people (i.e. when he says he's willing to help Thrask to prevent mages from getting killed, or when he kills the serial killer who was murdering elven children so that no more children end up getting killed), and her willingness to fight for hundreds of men, women, and children when they are condemned to death, would suggest otherwise.

Master Warder Z wrote...

So...I kinda of just adopted the position she was mentally reduced in some capacity or something.

Like when she was building an Eluvian from her own research, or when she proficiently used blood magic for several years without succumbing to it?

Master Warder Z wrote...

It's completely and utterly selfish and that is why there is conflict in their world and there is within our own.

Nationalism is ultimately selfish after all.

And that's what the Dalish are Enthic Nationalists.

.-. So Yeah i wouldn't view her usage of blood magic and Warden usage of it in the same light at all.

Merrill and the Dalish are a group of people who want to follow the Creators, maintain their culture, and live without being killed for being heathens, or having free mages in their midst.

Hrm personally? I think its at its base interensic to the Fade, Given how most theorists point out how it was either given to Humanity by Demons, Or the old god, Something beyond the physical plane of existance offered the knowledge of how to harness that power, And to me that's all the evidence you need to state that it will always lead back there, Its no surprise to me that the Ancient Warden Mage came to the conclusion that if combat Demons, you don't throw their own power at them.

There are high condition mental reduction illnesses out there you realize? Just because a genome was implanted properly doesn't automatically make the person inferiror when it comes to cognition or the use of it. Hence the modern social meme "Autistic Savant"  Point being that she could completely be horrible at social graces and how to embrace concepts such as subterfuge and what have you but still be able to comprehend magical theory.

Which is why she is capable of constructing that abomination while at the same time utterly ruining my attempt at sneaking into a warehouse by being witty.

That doesn't change what they are and it isn't to me a justifiable reason to embrace teachings that are better off not taught, The Keeper of that clan was an idiot but she was right to condemn blood magic.

o-o Pity she is sort of cute, it always makes me sort of sad to have to kill her in the end.

[EmperorSahlertz]

leaguer of one wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


In a world like Thedas were certain knowledge can literally be deadly, then there are thigns that indeed should remain forgotten. Eluvians being amongst them. As a communication device as they were being used by Tevinter they are inferior to the scrying stones, and as a dimensional gateway they obviously are not powerful enough to save an Empire. However they are fully capable of spreading the taint, which means that they are potentially a network of gods know how many portals from which the taint can pour through. Not worth it.

The lack of said knowledge has been shown to be equally dangerious. What if know one knew about dreamers and how to help or control them. Think of what would happen.

People havn't had that knowledge for hundreds of years, the only thing that happened was that the dreamers died before they became a threat. Marethari makes that perfectly clear.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


In a world like Thedas were certain knowledge can literally be deadly, then there are thigns that indeed should remain forgotten. Eluvians being amongst them. As a communication device as they were being used by Tevinter they are inferior to the scrying stones, and as a dimensional gateway they obviously are not powerful enough to save an Empire. However they are fully capable of spreading the taint, which means that they are potentially a network of gods know how many portals from which the taint can pour through. Not worth it.

The lack of said knowledge has been shown to be equally dangerious. What if know one knew about dreamers and how to help or control them. Think of what would happen.

People havn't had that knowledge for hundreds of years, the only thing that happened was that the dreamers died before they became a threat. Marethari makes that perfectly clear.

A point of technicality - "non-Tevinter" people haven't had that knowledge.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What exactly makes you think that the Eluvians are even worth keeping?

If its just a communication device it would be a potent device. but we already have seen its also capable of teleporting people. even its only a few its an extremely powerful device but if its capable of transporting army's then this could create an empire. And we are not  sure what it does now do we? Its worth keeping because you dont wish to remain ignorant of such power and neither do you want just laying around and wait for the wrong people to take it.

In a world like Thedas were certain knowledge can literally be deadly, then there are thigns that indeed should remain forgotten. Eluvians being amongst them. As a communication device as they were being used by Tevinter they are inferior to the scrying stones, and as a dimensional gateway they obviously are not powerful enough to save an Empire. However they are fully capable of spreading the taint, which means that they are potentially a network of gods know how many portals from which the taint can pour through. Not worth it.

What you think in this case is not relevant because you dont know what the eluvians limitations are. neither do i but im not insane enough to think magic like this will remain forgotten. perhaps it will not be used not in this generation or even the next one but one fact remains is that someday it will come back to bite you in the ass. you can either be stupid and ignore the problem or wise and know what the problem is and fix it before it gets out of hand.

[DKJaigen]

Master Warder Z wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Ok, let's assume that what the demon wanted all along was to possess Marethari.
What that means is that, in order for that theory to be true, he had to have also manipulated Merril into restoring the Eluvian thus leaving the clan thus leading to Marethari being possessed.
Which means, even if the Merril fans are right, she was still manipulated by a demon with whom she decided to have a conversation.

And let's not forget that Merril had contact with demons beyond the one in the statue like the one she summons to break the barrier keeping the group from Flemeth's altar.

The manipulation failed however. Merril was simply to cautious and the demon was treated with a nice case of death.

No she was pretty stupid.

Hawke is just good at killing things.

In what way was she stupid? in  a labratory even with all security measures in place things still can go wrong. which happend here but because of the adequate  measures taken by merril the demon died and didnt escape. Say what your biased ass wants their is nothing in this case that suggested that merril acted recklessly or incompetently

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


In a world like Thedas were certain knowledge can literally be deadly, then there are thigns that indeed should remain forgotten. Eluvians being amongst them. As a communication device as they were being used by Tevinter they are inferior to the scrying stones, and as a dimensional gateway they obviously are not powerful enough to save an Empire. However they are fully capable of spreading the taint, which means that they are potentially a network of gods know how many portals from which the taint can pour through. Not worth it.

The lack of said knowledge has been shown to be equally dangerious. What if know one knew about dreamers and how to help or control them. Think of what would happen.

People havn't had that knowledge for hundreds of years, the only thing that happened was that the dreamers died before they became a threat. Marethari makes that perfectly clear.

And thank the maker for that because she makes it clear that a dreamer abomination is the stuff of nightmares. The templars didnt know what the fck they where dealing with here. It could have gone completely out of hand. and how many  would die because the templars choose to remain ignorant? thousands ? tens of thousands?

Reason enough for me to consider the templars the worst threat thedas ever faced.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 21 février 2014 - 11:27 .

[Master Warder Z_]

DKJaigen wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Ok, let's assume that what the demon wanted all along was to possess Marethari.
What that means is that, in order for that theory to be true, he had to have also manipulated Merril into restoring the Eluvian thus leaving the clan thus leading to Marethari being possessed.
Which means, even if the Merril fans are right, she was still manipulated by a demon with whom she decided to have a conversation.

And let's not forget that Merril had contact with demons beyond the one in the statue like the one she summons to break the barrier keeping the group from Flemeth's altar.

The manipulation failed however. Merril was simply to cautious and the demon was treated with a nice case of death.

No she was pretty stupid.

Hawke is just good at killing things.

In what way was she stupid? in  a labratory even with all security measures in place things still can go wrong. which happend here but because of the adequate  measures taken by merril the demon died and didnt escape. Say what your biased ass wants their is nothing in this case that suggested that merril acted recklessly or incompetently

So ignoring all common sense forging a pact with a demon and reconstructing an elven abomination which by the way she needed to use blood magic to even work with you figure with all those red flags raised would be enough of an indicator what she was doing was ill advised to say the least.

.-. Beyond that her entire skewed view of Magic, Demons and the Arcane all point towards an upcoming disaster, which Rival Hawke can continously point out to her but due to her stubborness nothing changes, She refuses to adapt even when presented with the risks, which she acknowledges. So she is aware of them, Point being when you purposefully place yourself into such a self destructive position it isn't the work of a compitent mind, nor a stable one.

She was obbessed and that blinded her.

And your poor defense of her isn't bias how i wonder.

And Hawke is good at killing things, extremely good at the practice.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


In a world like Thedas were certain knowledge can literally be deadly, then there are thigns that indeed should remain forgotten. Eluvians being amongst them. As a communication device as they were being used by Tevinter they are inferior to the scrying stones, and as a dimensional gateway they obviously are not powerful enough to save an Empire. However they are fully capable of spreading the taint, which means that they are potentially a network of gods know how many portals from which the taint can pour through. Not worth it.

The lack of said knowledge has been shown to be equally dangerious. What if know one knew about dreamers and how to help or control them. Think of what would happen.

People havn't had that knowledge for hundreds of years, the only thing that happened was that the dreamers died before they became a threat. Marethari makes that perfectly clear.

And thank the maker for that because she makes it clear that a dreamer abomination is the stuff of nightmares. The templars didnt know what the fck they where dealing with here. It could have gone completely out of hand. and how many  would die because the templars choose to remain ignorant? thousands ? tens of thousands?

Reason enough for me to consider the templars the worst threat thedas ever faced.

I get it. 

And to be fair, I think everyone can agree the Darkspawn are the worst threat Thedas ever faces. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

We should all be grateful there is no report button for off topic.

[Master Warder Z_]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


In a world like Thedas were certain knowledge can literally be deadly, then there are thigns that indeed should remain forgotten. Eluvians being amongst them. As a communication device as they were being used by Tevinter they are inferior to the scrying stones, and as a dimensional gateway they obviously are not powerful enough to save an Empire. However they are fully capable of spreading the taint, which means that they are potentially a network of gods know how many portals from which the taint can pour through. Not worth it.

The lack of said knowledge has been shown to be equally dangerious. What if know one knew about dreamers and how to help or control them. Think of what would happen.

People havn't had that knowledge for hundreds of years, the only thing that happened was that the dreamers died before they became a threat. Marethari makes that perfectly clear.

And thank the maker for that because she makes it clear that a dreamer abomination is the stuff of nightmares. The templars didnt know what the fck they where dealing with here. It could have gone completely out of hand. and how many  would die because the templars choose to remain ignorant? thousands ? tens of thousands?

Reason enough for me to consider the templars the worst threat thedas ever faced.

There wasn't recorded cases of Dreamers active within White Thedas since the Qunari invasion during the Steel and Storm Ages respectively.

That's Four centuries prior to the events of the Dragon Age.

Can't really blame the Templars for not being aware of something that hasn't existed outside of tveinter in near five centuries.

And by the way your reasoning to me is laughable; They aren't aware of a threat therefore they are a threat? It's almost paradoxical.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yeah, can we get back to talking about the presentation of the Mage-Templar conflict?

[Master Warder Z_]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Yeah, can we get back to talking about the presentation of the Mage-Templar conflict?

No agruments from me.

Much prefer it to all this dicussion over the Hillbilly Elves hiding out in the backwoods near the holler

[Martyr1777]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Oh i don't buy into either mindset personally but i do view dealing with them as stupidity in some of the highest degree, They always get the better end of the bargain in the end anyway so its a waste of time.

I Don't think thats accurate. Because unless the Warden was just super anti-demon by way of simply being the PC then you can beat demons at their own game. You have numerous chances to do it in DAO, don't remember any in DA2 off the top of my head.

But there is the "Kitty" desire demon that you fake out when getting Shale, then the Sophia demon in Soldiers Peak that you can make them do their end first.

I'll be honest and say i think it's just a little to easy to lie to a magical creature, but maybe they really can't sense it. But just seems honestly too much like 'your the pc, your super powerful'. But oh well, the point is just because they are a demon doesn't mean they can't be fooled as well. Merrill was careful and if you ask me very smart in how she handled the situation.

I don't get how people call Merrill stupid when it was the kepper that went and got possessed like an idiot. Hell, she was the one trying to scare Merrill of because of it and knew there was a demon and did it anyway.

Again, I think she was the target not Merrill it was a demon of audacity right, well seems like the keeper was the one that had the audacity to think she could handle the situation not  Merrill. Merrill took precautions because of the danger, she didn't show any audacity in my mind.