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[Martyr1777]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Yeah, can we get back to talking about the presentation of the Mage-Templar conflict?

No agruments from me.

Much prefer it to all this dicussion over the Hillbilly Elves hiding out in the backwoods near the holler

There is a certain amount of relation to the topic though. I mean you spend all this time in both games dealing with mage's problems.

The presentation is unbalanced because of that. We have FAR FAR more exposure to mage stories and almost none (aside from Templars are ruthless to mages tidbits) from the chantry/templar side.

But yes the Merrill talk is a bit out of hand, even though I'm guilty of responding a couple times.

I'm not sure there is much else to cover regarding the presentation though, we've hit most everything I can think of.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


In a world like Thedas were certain knowledge can literally be deadly, then there are thigns that indeed should remain forgotten. Eluvians being amongst them. As a communication device as they were being used by Tevinter they are inferior to the scrying stones, and as a dimensional gateway they obviously are not powerful enough to save an Empire. However they are fully capable of spreading the taint, which means that they are potentially a network of gods know how many portals from which the taint can pour through. Not worth it.

The lack of said knowledge has been shown to be equally dangerious. What if know one knew about dreamers and how to help or control them. Think of what would happen.

People havn't had that knowledge for hundreds of years, the only thing that happened was that the dreamers died before they became a threat. Marethari makes that perfectly clear.

A point of technicality - "non-Tevinter" people haven't had that knowledge.

And yet everything outside of Tevinter is still standing.. Figure that...

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And yet everything outside of Tevinter is still standing.. Figure that...

I'm not disagreeing. I was clarifying.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...
She did not interact with just one. When she first reveals her blood magic, Hawke can accuse her of summoning a demon and Merril does not deny this: her defense is that she knows what she is doing because the demon helped them.

True, but the clan doesn't know that. And blood magic has been stated, repeatedly, to NOT have been tied to the Fade. It has a causal link, sure, in that the Veil thins when it's used, but it's not reliant on the Fade.

So... retcon? That or Sundermount's thin Veil and Merrill's blood magic are interacting in some form, i.e she used blood magic to open the portal, and by doing so a demon managed to escape the Fade. In other words, she didn't summon a Demon but one took advantage of the events to escape.

Also, man how can they even say "You summoned a Demon!" when we don't even see one Demon pop up in the vicinity, save for the combat encounters (of which Sundermount's lore makes clear are a natural phenomena now due to the thin Veil.)

[superdeathdealer14]

This just sums up how I feel about the whole Mage vs Templar debate.

Modifié par superdeathdealer14, 22 février 2014 - 02:32 .

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Weakned? Maybe, maybe not.

Awakening and supplemental codex material established that if a denizen of the Fade is cut off from the Fade and in the mortal realm, their power is greatly weakened. Throw in the fact that's it's trapped for a millenia and it couldn't have compensated until Marethari came along.

DAII established, along with the short story, that Audacity has been cut off from the Fade.

Weak enough to not pose a threat? Unlikely.

Well, if you leave it alone it's not a threat, something Marethari didn't do. The short story established that distance plays a part in its powers. The farther you are from it, the safer you are because it can't do much. In the story, both Marethari and Merrill heard some sort of whispering as they slept. Faint, but noticeable enough that after some time it merited investigation.

As they went up the mountain, it grew louder.

Merrill was in Kirkwall, a city miles and miles away from Sundermount, meaning she wouldn't have been able to hear it and thus be influenced even slightly by it. And she hasn't once attempted to contact it UNTIL Year 7.

The only real danger comes from staying there for too long, allowing it to manipulate you. Which is squarely on Marethari's shoulders.

MisterJB wrote...

Didn't one of the devs specifically say that fixing the mirror was a "bad call"?
I think it's on the DA2 forums, I remember TEWR and I discussing it...

Mike Laidlaw said that, though it was never clarified if he meant from his personal viewpoint or anything else. But he's hardly something to be taken as gospel.

It's still stupid, because it ends up vindicating a ****** Keeper while running counter to lore.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Ok, let's assume that what the demon wanted all along was to possess Marethari.
What that means is that, in order for that theory to be true, he had to have
also manipulated Merril into restoring the Eluvian thus leaving the
clan thus leading to Marethari being possessed.
Which means, even if
the Merril fans are right, she was still manipulated by a demon with
whom she decided to have a conversation.

Not necessarily. He could've simply been paying attention.

The sequence of events is that Merrill took a shard from the ruins and, for some time, kept it hidden (and feasibly, used the Dalish healing magic Marethari taught her to suppress the taint within). At some time around Sundermount, she approached Marethari and asked, per Dalish protocol (consistent with DAO Merrill!), that they combine their magic to cleanse the shard.

Marethari refused, and this led to them arguing over what should be done. Merrill decided that, since she was without lyrium, she needed to learn blood magic. And she probably remembered the Demon Marethari and her encountered in the short story, so she ventured up to the summit and conversed with Audacity. Audacity taught her the magic, and she used blood magic to amplify her Dalish healing magic, cleansing the shard of its taint.

Then she went back to Marethari and informed her of her success, saying they can rebuild the Eluvian together. Chances are, given what Merrill says of Marethari's domineering demeanor, she ended up spilling the beans on just how she did so, causing the rift to widen.

All the while, Audacity is probably paying attention and thinking "Hey, I can turn this to my benefit!".

So it's not that he necessarily manipulated Merrill. It's more that he just was paying attention to it. Merrill's desire to repair the Eluvian was NOT the result of Audacity, but of her own desire and curiosity -- curiosity that is even mentioned in DAO.

The scrying stones are beneficial for the Circles and the mages of the Circles who have them. The Eluvians could be beneficial for the People.

Forget the People. They could be beneficial to society itself, if the Elves were willing to share the knowledge. It is a part of their heritage, but it could be used to ease relations between the two cultures.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 février 2014 - 02:42 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I thought we were dropping the Merrill discussion?

[Cainhurst Crow]

Your point about Merrill being far away might be a good one. Its not like the demon had some sort of device, that connects places together over long distances, that would have placed it within a close distance of Merrill or possibly lead it back to the fade along with any other place audacity might wish to go. But he'd need an eluvian for that. And whats the chances of finding one of those?

[TEWR]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Your point about Merrill being far away might be a good one. Its not like the demon had some sort of device, that connects places together over long distances, that would have placed it within a close distance of Merrill or possibly lead it back to the fade along with any other place audacity might wish to go. But he'd need an eluvian for that. And whats the chances of finding one of those?

What evidence is there that Eluvians can allow Demons to escape, other then the word of an Abomination who prior to possession was so biased that she repeatedly refused to do even one ounce of research into them?

We have, from Morrigan, confirmation that Eluvians connect to a place beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade. And certainly, it'd have to be safe if she was willing to have put her untrained OGB on the other side who is only at best 1.5 years old.

[Cainhurst Crow]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Your point about Merrill being far away might be a good one. Its not like the demon had some sort of device, that connects places together over long distances, that would have placed it within a close distance of Merrill or possibly lead it back to the fade along with any other place audacity might wish to go. But he'd need an eluvian for that. And whats the chances of finding one of those?

What evidence is there that Eluvians can allow Demons to escape, other then the word of an Abomination who prior to possession was so biased that she repeatedly refused to do even one ounce of research into them?

We have, from Morrigan, confirmation that Eluvians connect to a place beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade. And certainly, it'd have to be safe if she was willing to have put her untrained OGB on the other side who is only at best 1.5 years old.

If it can go beyond those places, it stands to reason that they can also be used to travel to those places in turn. There is no evidence they cant connect to the fade or that demons can't use them. In fact that abominations testimony is actually more support that they could then your entire argument against it. Your entire argument is simply based on character defamation, while mine is supported by in game evidence. If it was bull**** why didnt miss knife ears bloody rag call her out on that being a lie? Why didnt she ever state this at all at any point in the game?
My testimony along with a lack of defense from Merrill to the contrary seems to prove thst demons can use the eluvisn and would have become an abomination without the keeper sacrificing herself as a host thst they could kill.

[Martyr1777]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I thought we were dropping the Merrill discussion?

Ever try ripping a meaty bone from the jaws of an untrained dog?

Yeeaahh.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Not necessarily. He could've simply been paying attention.

The sequence of events is that Merrill took a shard from the ruins and, for some time, kept it hidden (and feasibly, used the Dalish healing magic Marethari taught her to suppress the taint within). At some time around Sundermount, she approached Marethari and asked, per Dalish protocol (consistent with DAO Merrill!), that they combine their magic to cleanse the shard.

Marethari refused, and this led to them arguing over what should be done. Merrill decided that, since she was without lyrium, she needed to learn blood magic. And she probably remembered the Demon Marethari and her encountered in the short story, so she ventured up to the summit and conversed with Audacity. Audacity taught her the magic, and she used blood magic to amplify her Dalish healing magic, cleansing the shard of its taint.

Then she went back to Marethari and informed her of her success, saying they can rebuild the Eluvian together. Chances are, given what Merrill says of Marethari's domineering demeanor, she ended up spilling the beans on just how she did so, causing the rift to widen.

All the while, Audacity is probably paying attention and thinking "Hey, I can turn this to my benefit!".

So it's not that he necessarily manipulated Merrill. It's more that he just was paying attention to it. Merrill's desire to repair the Eluvian was NOT the result of Audacity, but of her own desire and curiosity -- curiosity that is even mentioned in DAO.

Audacity had already attempted to manipulate them in the short story and there is an implication Merril was tempted by its promise to restore the elven people.
Even if she wasn't, there is no way that a demon would have offered knowledge on blood magic because it was feeling kind. Either it taught Merril because it wished to see her restoring the mirror it would use to free itself or because it predicted it could use Marethari's feelings for her apprentice to its advantage.
Either way, Merril was manipulated by a demon, no way around that.

Not that there is any shame in that. Audacity was, clearly, very high in the demonic hierarchy and maybe the whole things could have been averted had Marethari, or Merril, acted in a different manner.

[wcholcombe]

The number of people's minds changed about Merrill V Marethari debate? 0. Let's please move on.

[ShadowLordXII]

superdeathdealer14 wrote...

This just sums up how I feel about the whole Mage vs Templar debate.

Not sure if truthfully briliant or briliantly trolling...Either way...it just seems...right.

Someone mentioned that the uneven presentation of the mage-templar conflict came from the fact that players haven't been exposed to as many sympathetic viewpoints on templars and anti-mage relations as we have with mages and mage-friendly circles.

The closest that I've found could technically count though most are biased by their own private experiences that don't necessarily apply to the overall structure:

Alistair- Grey Warden recruited from templar training. He doesn't have any hatred for mages save only his reasonable weariness of apostates and blood magic. Also provides inside account of templar training and the lyrium addiction aspect that's almost blatantly used as a means of controlling templars. So Moderate neutral viewpoint with slight anti-chantry leaning.

Greagoir- Knight Commander of Kinloch Hold and has a firm, but fair oversight of the Circle mages there. Rightfully is weary of blood mages or abominations and is willing to annul the Circle to stop Uldred's Uprising. But once evidence is given that the uprising is dealt with, Greagoir will call it off and cause no further grief for the remaining mages. He also bears a grudging respect for older mages such as Irving and Wynne though he doesn't approve of when they scheme behind his back. (Like withholding info about Jowan if the mage Warden tells Irving about Jowan's plan) Guess this counts as a reasonably sympathetic Pro-Templar viewpoint.

Cullen- Properly paranoid about mages after being emotionally scared by Uldred's Uprising. Eventually calms down and becomes Meredith's right-hand man. Supports heavy regulation and vigilance of Circle mages, but won't go as far as to violently murder any mage for no reason. So Cullen would serve as a proper though a reasonably biased pro-templar standpoint.

Fenris- Fugitive from Tevinter who mistrusts and depises all mages because of his experiences in Tevinter and as Majester Danarius' slave. Even if he regards an individual mage as an ally or friend (such as Merrill or Hawke), he'll still remain wary of pro-mage decisions or anything that supports demonology/blood mage. So, here's another sympathetic yet biased anti-mage standpoint.

Meredith- Knight Commander of Kirkwall and though she has sympathy for mages, she believes that their curse is an inherent danger to the common people that must be guarded. Her beliefs are strongly reinforced by how her parents had attempted to hide her mage sister when she was a girl, her sister became an abomination and 70 people died before she was killed. But her paranoia leads her to eventually seize direct political control over Kirkwall's government and call the Right of Annulment on the local Circle in direct response to an apostate who blew up the Chantry. Pro-Templer Extremist Viewpoint.

Lambert- Lord Seeker of the Chantry Seekers who manages to raise the stakes in the conflict just out of an unwillingness to give the Circles a benefit of a doubt. His experiences were colored by a personal betrayal by a mage friend in Tevinter who used him to eventually to become the Black Divine and not only depower the Templar Order in Tevinter, but also sounded like an evil warlock straight out of a typical fantasy story. So Lambert left Tevinter as well as any notion that mages are anything, but ticking time bombs. This goes as far as ordering a fellow templar to prevent any possible information about an alternative to the Rite of Tranquility from becoming public and forcing an untranquilized mage to be retranquilized out of spite. Eventually, he orchestrates an attack on the Mage's gathering and breaks the Seeker and Templar Orders away from Chantry Authority after the White Divine had attempted to mediate the boiling conflict. Clearly an Anti-Mage Extremist Viewpoint.

Evangeline- Knight-Captain of the White Spire who was ordered to impede Rhys' and Wynne's quest to find an alternative to the Rite of Tranquility, but after learning about the mage perspective and bonding with her companions, she disobeys her orders and gets demoted by Lambert. Eventually sides with and dies defending the mages from her former boss and gets better at the cost of Wynne's life. Now currently abiding with Rhys as an "anti-magic" abomination. Pro-Mage Viewpoint and after her personal experiences, would be reasonably biased Anti-templar or just Anti-Lambert (If he's still alive).

That's everyone that I've gotten for major characters and I'm sure that there are a few minor characters like Thrask or Keran, but overall I can see the aforementioned unbalance...though I'm sure if it would hold up to the structural problems that the Templar Order and the Chantry itself have displayed.

Modifié par ShadowLordXII, 22 février 2014 - 03:35 .

[wcholcombe]

In all honesty for the most part it doesn't matter how the story is portrayed. It comes down to people's personal views on life:

Good of the many over good of the individual-Pro templar
Individual rights and freedoms trump all else-Pro Mage
Duty and discipline over personal happiness-Pro templar
Personal happiness over sense of duty or obligation-Pro mage
Positive view of religion-Pro chantry
Negative view of religion-Anti chantry


You can further break this out to stance on Dalish, Tevinter, Qunari, etc but I will leave it here.

And yes there will be exceptions, if for no other reason than some of you are difficult, but do 90-95% of us, this is how we will choose in a very basic sense.

[leaguer of one]

wcholcombe wrote...

In all honesty for the most part it doesn't matter how the story is portrayed. It comes down to people's personal views on life:

Good of the many over good of the individual-Pro templar
Individual rights and freedoms trump all else-Pro Mage
Duty and discipline over personal happiness-Pro templar
Personal happiness over sense of duty or obligation-Pro mage
Positive view of religion-Pro chantry
Negative view of religion-Anti chantry


You can further break this out to stance on Dalish, Tevinter, Qunari, etc but I will leave it here.

And yes there will be exceptions, if for no other reason than some of you are difficult, but do 90-95% of us, this is how we will choose in a very basic sense.

What happen to all the pro-circle mages and the mages and templar that actually want to work together. It's not just those extremes.

[Shadow Raziel]

The whole Orsino flip flop jumped the shark with me. There may be a better way to establish guidelines for mages, but make no mistake, I did not overlook or excuse his actions. In fact I played through again and sided with the Templars. if the presentation is similar I will do so again.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Shadow Raziel wrote...

The whole Orsino flip flop jumped the shark with me. There may be a better way to establish guidelines for mages, but make no mistake, I did not overlook or excuse his actions. In fact I played through again and sided with the Templars. if the presentation is similar I will do so again.

So because of the corruption of one man, you help the Templars kill hundreds of innocent people?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

leaguer of one wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

In all honesty for the most part it doesn't matter how the story is portrayed. It comes down to people's personal views on life:

Good of the many over good of the individual-Pro templar
Individual rights and freedoms trump all else-Pro Mage
Duty and discipline over personal happiness-Pro templar
Personal happiness over sense of duty or obligation-Pro mage
Positive view of religion-Pro chantry
Negative view of religion-Anti chantry


You can further break this out to stance on Dalish, Tevinter, Qunari, etc but I will leave it here.

And yes there will be exceptions, if for no other reason than some of you are difficult, but do 90-95% of us, this is how we will choose in a very basic sense.

What happen to all the pro-circle mages and the mages and templar that actually want to work together. It's not just those extremes.

I think those would be those who have a combination of the two points.

[Treacherous J Slither]

wcholcombe wrote...

In all honesty for the most part it doesn't matter how the story is portrayed. It comes down to people's personal views on life:

Good of the many over good of the individual-Pro templar
Individual rights and freedoms trump all else-Pro Mage
Duty and discipline over personal happiness-Pro templar
Personal happiness over sense of duty or obligation-Pro mage
Positive view of religion-Pro chantry
Negative view of religion-Anti chantry


You can further break this out to stance on Dalish, Tevinter, Qunari, etc but I will leave it here.

And yes there will be exceptions, if for no other reason than some of you are difficult, but do 90-95% of us, this is how we will choose in a very basic sense.

What factors into choosing one of these stances is the level of danger you believe mages pose to society. So far I haven't seen anything that warrants them being locked up and villified instead of simply trained to control their abilities and to be able to fight off demons. Also, if and when something unfortunate occurs, a Templar like organization made up of mages and mundanes can respond and resolve the situation as necessary.
What I see in the current system is simple fear and ignorance of magic by those who lack the power themselves. 

[Treacherous J Slither]

Why are there no mages in the Templars?


Think about it.

[Cainhurst Crow]

JSlither wrote...

Why are there no mages in the Templars?


Think about it.

Why don't we let parolees into the police force?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 22 février 2014 - 05:32 .

[KaiserShep]

JSlither wrote...

Why are there no mages in the Templars?


Think about it.

It would undermine the entire purpose of the order.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 22 février 2014 - 05:34 .

[Treacherous J Slither]

KaiserShep wrote...

JSlither wrote...

Why are there no mages in the Templars?


Think about it.

It would undermine the entire purpose of the order. 

How so?