8640 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

JSlither wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

JSlither wrote...

Why are there no mages in the Templars?


Think about it.

It would undermine the entire purpose of the order. 

How so?

The templars ensure mages don't become a corrupt self regulating heirarchy as they were in the times of old tevinter.

So the solution is to put mages in positons of self-regulation and allow them to become a corrupt self regulating hierarchy as they were in the times of old tevinter.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

JSlither wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

JSlither wrote...

Why are there no mages in the Templars?


Think about it.

It would undermine the entire purpose of the order. 

How so?

The templars ensure mages don't become a corrupt self regulating heirarchy as they were in the times of old tevinter.

So the solution is to put mages in positons of self-regulation and allow them to become a corrupt self regulating hierarchy as they were in the times of old tevinter.

My solution is for them to work alongside each other.
Besides, the only thing stopping a recreation of old Tevinter is the Qunari. Not only that but i'm sure Andrastes army had quite a few mages in it. How else could they have possibly defeated an empire full of powerful blood mages?

[Reznore57]

Well mages causes massive trouble in some society.
And they always will.

For the Dalish , they deal with it.Mages will tend to be leaders , of course.But since they have small clan where everyone is important and everyone is a nomad ...they have no social class issue.
They accept the danger of magic , and the mages can be free as long as they don't willingly endanger the clan with his/her power.

It's something , Imho, nearly impossible to achieve in humans societies.
Magic blows things out of proportion .
I'm not sure how can humans deal with mages power , when they already have power struggles all over the damn place.
Humans rules over city elves , nobles rules over peasants, nobles fight among themselves , human countries are at war with each others.
I can't imagine letting mages free in this mess.

Anyway mages are just born more powerful , and in societies not promoting equality , I just don't think mages freedom can work.

Abominations and Blood magic are also a problem , but mages are also able to do some good...
It's really silly apostates mages like Anders are able to heal more people than mages under the Chantry's thumbs.
It makes little sense to me the Chantry is mostly using mages for war ...

I'm not anti templars , I think they are victims just like the mages of a very bad system.
They were supposed to be protectors ,something pretty noble.But they ended up being jailors , oppressor , and junkies.

I think mages situation will keep on being a trial and error .I'm not sure there's a way around it.
The whole trying to burry the problem and throwing away the key couldn't work for a very long time anyway.

[Cainhurst Crow]

JSlither wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

JSlither wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

JSlither wrote...

Why are there no mages in the Templars?


Think about it.

It would undermine the entire purpose of the order. 

How so?

The templars ensure mages don't become a corrupt self regulating heirarchy as they were in the times of old tevinter.

So the solution is to put mages in positons of self-regulation and allow them to become a corrupt self regulating hierarchy as they were in the times of old tevinter.

My solution is for them to work alongside each other.
Besides, the only thing stopping a recreation of old Tevinter is the Qunari. Not only that but i'm sure Andrastes army had quite a few mages in it. How else could they have possibly defeated an empire full of powerful blood mages?

Numbers? Lot's of arrows maybe? One crazy old magister who couldn't keep it in his pants? More blood magic? Who knows what ahppened back then.

Mages are already allowed to fight in wars if the situation is desperate enough, so I don't see what that's got to do with anything. Just not allowing them to pull another tevinter bait and switch and completely hijack the religion and society again is what I think people's concerns are for mages regulating themselves within the templar order.

And I don't see how the qunari did jack **** to help since tevinter was already crumbling and it's ability to take more territory pretty much non-exsistent, since they have been continuously losing land since the blight.

[The Elder King]

@Darth Bretorian: JSlither might refer to a codex entry about Tevinter, that states that without the qunari they'd try to invade the rest of Thedas.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Trying and succeeding are two radically different things.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Reznore57 wrote...

Well mages causes massive trouble in some society.
And they always will.

For the Dalish , they deal with it.Mages will tend to be leaders , of course.But since they have small clan where everyone is important and everyone is a nomad ...they have no social class issue.
They accept the danger of magic , and the mages can be free as long as they don't willingly endanger the clan with his/her power.

It's something , Imho, nearly impossible to achieve in humans societies.
Magic blows things out of proportion .
I'm not sure how can humans deal with mages power , when they already have power struggles all over the damn place.
Humans rules over city elves , nobles rules over peasants, nobles fight among themselves , human countries are at war with each others.
I can't imagine letting mages free in this mess.

Anyway mages are just born more powerful , and in societies not promoting equality , I just don't think mages freedom can work.

Abominations and Blood magic are also a problem , but mages are also able to do some good...
It's really silly apostates mages like Anders are able to heal more people than mages under the Chantry's thumbs.
It makes little sense to me the Chantry is mostly using mages for war ...

I'm not anti templars , I think they are victims just like the mages of a very bad system.
They were supposed to be protectors ,something pretty noble.But they ended up being jailors , oppressor , and junkies.

I think mages situation will keep on being a trial and error .I'm not sure there's a way around it.
The whole trying to burry the problem and throwing away the key couldn't work for a very long time anyway.

PEOPLE cause massive trouble in society. You have good people and bad people. When people do bad things there is some form of a law enforcement agency that attempts to solve the problem and get the bad guy.


If the bad guy is a master swordsman, others with equal or comparable skill may be brought in to take him down.
If the bad guy is a master archer the same applies.

If the bad guy is a mage the same should apply. Who better to combat powerful mages than other powerful mages?


Think of magic like it's a knife. Is a knife more of a threat or is it more of a resource? I say resource. A skilled artisan can make something beautiful by carving wood or clay. A cook can use it to help prepare a meal. When used properly and for the right reasons, a knife is a wonderful resource. However, in the hands of the unskilled a knife becomes potentially harmful to the wielder and to those around him. In the hands of those with bad intentions the dangers are even more sever.

However the solution is not to ban knives but to teach people how to use them properly. And if someone uses it to harm another, the people should see to it that justice is served. The same should be true of magic.

Templars haven't been underpresented in the sense that i'm able to understand them and their motivations and goals just fine from a lore standpoint. I simply disagree with them because according to the lore the Templars actions are unjustified. IMO there haven't been many Templar characters for the player because they don't posess the same utility as a mage character from a gameplay standpoint. A mage can do everything a Templar can do and more.

Modifié par JSlither, 22 février 2014 - 07:11 .

[The Elder King]

@JSIther: A mage can do more things than a templar can, true. But I've yet to see mages being as efficient as templars in stopping mages, without the use of blood magic. And no, I don't personally consider gameplay as an effective source for this. Asunder is great in displaying the templars' abilities in fighting and stopping mages.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Trying and succeeding are two radically different things.

If the Qunari simply got up and left Thedas, Tevinter would have a chance to heal and strengthen itself. They could then begin a campaign of slowly undermining and weakening their neighbors one at a time. No nation becomes an empire by being stupid.

[HiroVoid]

JSlither wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

JSlither wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

JSlither wrote...

Why are there no mages in the Templars?


Think about it.

It would undermine the entire purpose of the order. 

How so?

The templars ensure mages don't become a corrupt self regulating heirarchy as they were in the times of old tevinter.

So the solution is to put mages in positons of self-regulation and allow them to become a corrupt self regulating hierarchy as they were in the times of old tevinter.

My solution is for them to work alongside each other.
Besides, the only thing stopping a recreation of old Tevinter is the Qunari. Not only that but i'm sure Andrastes army had quite a few mages in it. How else could they have possibly defeated an empire full of powerful blood mages?

They had the maker on their side for a while.

[The Elder King]

JSlither wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Trying and succeeding are two radically different things.

If the Qunari simply got up and left Thedas, Tevinter would have a chance to heal and strengthen itself. They could then begin a campaign of slowly undermining and weakening their neighbors one at a time. No nation becomes an empire by being stupid.

We are talking of a nation that decides to sacrifice thousands of slaves and 1/3 of their lyrium reserves to enter physically in the Fade (confirmed by Corypheus) with no evidence of what would happen other than the words of their 'god'. I'd say Tevinter shown a fair part of stupidity in their past.
Though I agree with your opinion of Tevinter becoming a big threat for the rest of Thedas id the qunari went away. But the qunari aren't any less of a threat for them.

[Treacherous J Slither]

HiroVoid wrote...

JSlither wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

JSlither wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

JSlither wrote...

Why are there no mages in the Templars?


Think about it.

It would undermine the entire purpose of the order. 

How so?

The templars ensure mages don't become a corrupt self regulating heirarchy as they were in the times of old tevinter.

So the solution is to put mages in positons of self-regulation and allow them to become a corrupt self regulating hierarchy as they were in the times of old tevinter.

My solution is for them to work alongside each other.
Besides, the only thing stopping a recreation of old Tevinter is the Qunari. Not only that but i'm sure Andrastes army had quite a few mages in it. How else could they have possibly defeated an empire full of powerful blood mages?

They had the maker on their side for a while.

There is no Maker. Never was. I have seen no evidence otherwise.

[Treacherous J Slither]

hhh89 wrote...

JSlither wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Trying and succeeding are two radically different things.

If the Qunari simply got up and left Thedas, Tevinter would have a chance to heal and strengthen itself. They could then begin a campaign of slowly undermining and weakening their neighbors one at a time. No nation becomes an empire by being stupid.

We are talking of a nation that decides to sacrifice thousands of slaves and 1/3 of their lyrium reserves to enter physically in the Fade (confirmed by Corypheus) with no evidence of what would happen other than the words of their 'god'. I'd say Tevinter shown a fair part of stupidity in their past.
Though I agree with your opinion of Tevinter becoming a big threat for the rest of Thedas id the qunari went away. But the qunari aren't any less of a threat for them.

The Roman Empire had it's share of follies but they still ruled the known world for centuries.

[Treacherous J Slither]

hhh89 wrote...

@JSIther: A mage can do more things than a templar can, true. But I've yet to see mages being as efficient as templars in stopping mages, without the use of blood magic. And no, I don't personally consider gameplay as an effective source for this. Asunder is great in displaying the templars' abilities in fighting and stopping mages.

I haven't read Asunder but from what i've seen Templars typically gang up on their opponents. Numbers advantage.
Also, many Circle mages aren't allowed to train with weapons. Their oppressors have stacked the deck against them. Blood magic is their only hope of being free. Now if it's one maleficar vs one Templar, my money is the guy that isn't being turned inside out.
I'm sure there's a apostate swordmaster out there somewhere though

[The Elder King]

@JSIther: I never said that an empire can't stand or rule without being stupid. It's you that stated the opposite.
Regardless, after the magister reached the Fade, there was a chain of events that lead to Tevinter being weakened and losing a lot of their territories. So being stupid lead to their decline.

[Cainhurst Crow]

JSlither wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Trying and succeeding are two radically different things.

If the Qunari simply got up and left Thedas, Tevinter would have a chance to heal and strengthen itself. They could then begin a campaign of slowly undermining and weakening their neighbors one at a time. No nation becomes an empire by being stupid.

*Qunari leave

Chantry: Phew, glad they're gone. Now where we're we? Oh right, EXALTED MARCH YOU FLAME SNUFFING SONS A ****ES!!!!

[Treacherous J Slither]

hhh89 wrote...

@JSIther: I never said that an empire can't stand or rule without being stupid. It's you that stated the opposite.
Regardless, after the magister reached the Fade, there was a chain of events that lead to Tevinter being weakened and losing a lot of their territories. So being stupid lead to their decline.

When the Fade walk happened (if it actually happened at all) Tevinter was at the height of her power. I doubt a nation can become an empire by pulling dumb stunts like this in the beginning. Once you're at the top I imagine there's room for a little stupidity lol.

[Cainhurst Crow]

JSlither wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@JSIther: A mage can do more things than a templar can, true. But I've yet to see mages being as efficient as templars in stopping mages, without the use of blood magic. And no, I don't personally consider gameplay as an effective source for this. Asunder is great in displaying the templars' abilities in fighting and stopping mages.

I haven't read Asunder but from what i've seen Templars typically gang up on their opponents. Numbers advantage.
Also, many Circle mages aren't allowed to train with weapons. Their oppressors have stacked the deck against them. Blood magic is their only hope of being free. Now if it's one maleficar vs one Templar, my money is the guy that isn't being turned inside out.
I'm sure there's a apostate swordmaster out there somewhere though

Yes, because if there's one thing that'll free you from the oppressors who give you security, a place to live, guidance to help nurture your magical talent, an enviroment where you can recieve an education, and a garunteed career and life of warm meals and a nice bed to sleep on, it's giving yourself over to the demonic forces of the fade for the ability to turn your friends into walking health potions.

Cause that totally isn't something that bites them in the ass.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Actually I can't even say it was stupid. They had no idea what would happen and took a great risk for the hope of great gain. They could have come face to face with their gods or become gods themselves .

[Cainhurst Crow]

JSlither wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@JSIther: I never said that an empire can't stand or rule without being stupid. It's you that stated the opposite.
Regardless, after the magister reached the Fade, there was a chain of events that lead to Tevinter being weakened and losing a lot of their territories. So being stupid lead to their decline.

When the Fade walk happened (if it actually happened at all) -snip-

**** Please.

[KainD]

hhh89 wrote...
Asunder is great in displaying the templars' abilities in fighting and stopping mages.

What are those? ( The non-game perspective. )

[Cainhurst Crow]

JSlither wrote...

Actually I can't even say it was stupid. They had no idea what would happen and took a great risk for the hope of great gain. They could have come face to face with their gods or become gods themselves .

They listened to the lies of demonic deities they couldn't possibly understand and were played like a bunch of cheap fiddles. That is stupidity, taking a leap of faith with no evidence to prove your assumptions are right and making your judgements on simple first impressions are the height of illogical and irrational decision making, and thus stupidity.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

JSlither wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@JSIther: A mage can do more things than a templar can, true. But I've yet to see mages being as efficient as templars in stopping mages, without the use of blood magic. And no, I don't personally consider gameplay as an effective source for this. Asunder is great in displaying the templars' abilities in fighting and stopping mages.

I haven't read Asunder but from what i've seen Templars typically gang up on their opponents. Numbers advantage.
Also, many Circle mages aren't allowed to train with weapons. Their oppressors have stacked the deck against them. Blood magic is their only hope of being free. Now if it's one maleficar vs one Templar, my money is the guy that isn't being turned inside out.
I'm sure there's a apostate swordmaster out there somewhere though

Yes, because if there's one thing that'll free you from the oppressors who give you security, a place to live, guidance to help nurture your magical talent, an enviroment where you can recieve an education, and a garunteed career and life of warm meals and a nice bed to sleep on, it's giving yourself over to the demonic forces of the fade for the ability to turn your friends into walking health potions.

Cause that totally isn't something that bites them in the ass.

Funny thing about all of that is it comes with a heavy price and most of them didn't choose to buy it in the first place.
If you were a mage in the DA world would you go to the Circle voluntarily or would you live your life as an apostate?

[The Elder King]

JSlither wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@JSIther: A mage can do more things than a templar can, true. But I've yet to see mages being as efficient as templars in stopping mages, without the use of blood magic. And no, I don't personally consider gameplay as an effective source for this. Asunder is great in displaying the templars' abilities in fighting and stopping mages.

I haven't read Asunder but from what i've seen Templars typically gang up on their opponents. Numbers advantage.
Also, many Circle mages aren't allowed to train with weapons. Their oppressors have stacked the deck against them. Blood magic is their only hope of being free. Now if it's one maleficar vs one Templar, my money is the guy that isn't being turned inside out.
I'm sure there's a apostate swordmaster out there somewhere though

I'd bet my money on the blood mage too, but actually Asunder shown that a templar can resist blood magic (even if it's really hard) and beat one, in single combat.
Asunder shown better the templar abilities, and it added at least one (a type of barrier that negated part of the magic attacks).
My opinion of blood magic is different from yours. Even if it doesn't have to use by using the blood of other people, it's still a magic that is more stronger the more violence it used. And mages aren't better than normal people. As much as I woudn't trust most of people in using powerful weapons, I woudn't trust most mages in using blood magic.
You said that blood magic is their only hope for being free. I disagree. Because while it's true that it gives them an advantage over templars, there'll be mages that will use blood magic for their own gain and will hurt normal people, and mages for surviving they need the support of some countries. Blood magic is a good way to lose the support they might reach.

[Cainhurst Crow]

JSlither wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

JSlither wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@JSIther: A mage can do more things than a templar can, true. But I've yet to see mages being as efficient as templars in stopping mages, without the use of blood magic. And no, I don't personally consider gameplay as an effective source for this. Asunder is great in displaying the templars' abilities in fighting and stopping mages.

I haven't read Asunder but from what i've seen Templars typically gang up on their opponents. Numbers advantage.
Also, many Circle mages aren't allowed to train with weapons. Their oppressors have stacked the deck against them. Blood magic is their only hope of being free. Now if it's one maleficar vs one Templar, my money is the guy that isn't being turned inside out.
I'm sure there's a apostate swordmaster out there somewhere though

Yes, because if there's one thing that'll free you from the oppressors who give you security, a place to live, guidance to help nurture your magical talent, an enviroment where you can recieve an education, and a garunteed career and life of warm meals and a nice bed to sleep on, it's giving yourself over to the demonic forces of the fade for the ability to turn your friends into walking health potions.

Cause that totally isn't something that bites them in the ass.

Funny thing about all of that is it comes with a heavy price and most of them didn't choose to buy it in the first place.
If you were a mage in the DA world would you go to the Circle voluntarily or would you live your life as an apostate?

Blood magic is like meth. It was always a choice, and they were the ones who made it. Doesn't matter what the consequences were of them taking meth, it was their choice to do it, and their choice to keep doing it.

And I am proud to be a moderate pro-circle Aequitarian. If you don't want stuff like conner happening, then you need a place that mages can go to get educated on how to properly use their powers, it needs to be a place that is easily secure and remote enough to not pose an immediate threat, and above all there can be no exceptions.