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[Treacherous J Slither]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

JSlither wrote...

Actually I can't even say it was stupid. They had no idea what would happen and took a great risk for the hope of great gain. They could have come face to face with their gods or become gods themselves .

They listened to the lies of demonic deities they couldn't possibly understand and were played like a bunch of cheap fiddles. That is stupidity, taking a leap of faith with no evidence to prove your assumptions are right and making your judgements on simple first impressions are the height of illogical and irrational decision making, and thus stupidity.

They were played but I don't believe taking a leap of faith in itself is stupid. However I do believe that it's wrong to force others into doing it with you.

Modifié par JSlither, 22 février 2014 - 08:24 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

JSlither wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

JSlither wrote...

Actually I can't even say it was stupid. They had no idea what would happen and took a great risk for the hope of great gain. They could have come face to face with their gods or become gods themselves .

They listened to the lies of demonic deities they couldn't possibly understand and were played like a bunch of cheap fiddles. That is stupidity, taking a leap of faith with no evidence to prove your assumptions are right and making your judgements on simple first impressions are the height of illogical and irrational decision making, and thus stupidity.

They were played but I don't believe taking a leap of faith in itself is stupid. However I do believe that it's wrong to force others into doing it with you.

Fair enough. I disagree on the leap of faith not being stupid but that's less to do with dragon age and more to do with philosophy.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Actually that's the very essence of a stupid decision. Going in blind.

So yeah it was dumb but I understand why they did it. Forging ahead into the unknown, curiosity, exploration blah blah blah.

[The Elder King]

KainD wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Asunder is great in displaying the templars' abilities in fighting and stopping mages.

What are those? ( The non-game perspective. )

Disrupting mages' mana works better, and it doesn't require weapon (a touch is enough to prevent them to use spells). They can resist blood magic, although it's really difficult. They can use a type of barrier around them that negate some of the effects of the spells (it was used against a fire spells).

[The Elder King]

JSlither wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@JSIther: I never said that an empire can't stand or rule without being stupid. It's you that stated the opposite.
Regardless, after the magister reached the Fade, there was a chain of events that lead to Tevinter being weakened and losing a lot of their territories. So being stupid lead to their decline.

When the Fade walk happened (if it actually happened at all) Tevinter was at the height of her power. I doubt a nation can become an empire by pulling dumb stunts like this in the beginning. Once you're at the top I imagine there's room for a little stupidity lol.

Of course you can be stupid if you're at the top. But that stupidity cost them a lot.

[KainD]

hhh89 wrote...

Disrupting mages' mana works better, and it doesn't require weapon (a touch is enough to prevent them to use spells). They can resist blood magic, although it's really difficult. They can use a type of barrier around them that negate some of the effects of the spells (it was used against a fire spells).

So a templar has to touch a mage to drain their mana?

[Treacherous J Slither]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

JSlither wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

JSlither wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@JSIther: A mage can do more things than a templar can, true. But I've yet to see mages being as efficient as templars in stopping mages, without the use of blood magic. And no, I don't personally consider gameplay as an effective source for this. Asunder is great in displaying the templars' abilities in fighting and stopping mages.

I haven't read Asunder but from what i've seen Templars typically gang up on their opponents. Numbers advantage.
Also, many Circle mages aren't allowed to train with weapons. Their oppressors have stacked the deck against them. Blood magic is their only hope of being free. Now if it's one maleficar vs one Templar, my money is the guy that isn't being turned inside out.
I'm sure there's a apostate swordmaster out there somewhere though

Yes, because if there's one thing that'll free you from the oppressors who give you security, a place to live, guidance to help nurture your magical talent, an enviroment where you can recieve an education, and a garunteed career and life of warm meals and a nice bed to sleep on, it's giving yourself over to the demonic forces of the fade for the ability to turn your friends into walking health potions.

Cause that totally isn't something that bites them in the ass.

Funny thing about all of that is it comes with a heavy price and most of them didn't choose to buy it in the first place.
If you were a mage in the DA world would you go to the Circle voluntarily or would you live your life as an apostate?

Blood magic is like meth. It was always a choice, and they were the ones who made it. Doesn't matter what the consequences were of them taking meth, it was their choice to do it, and their choice to keep doing it.

And I am proud to be a moderate pro-circle Aequitarian. If you don't want stuff like conner happening, then you need a place that mages can go to get educated on how to properly use their powers, it needs to be a place that is easily secure and remote enough to not pose an immediate threat, and above all there can be no exceptions.

Yes it's their choice. I haven't stated otherwise. However afaik blood magic isn't a narcotic that ruins the user like meth does. Whatever damage the blood mage sustains from from casting can be healed afterwards. Also, a blood mage can fuel their spells with the blood of their enemies and use that blood to heal themselves as well. I really don't see the downside to intelligently used blood magic.

I'm not advocating total mag freedom without the requirements of mandatory training and being subject to local laws. What i'm suggesting is a more school like environment similar to Xaviers School for Gifted Youngsters from Marvel Comics. A place of learning where you master what you are. Not a prison. You're free to go once training is complete. The school is run by mages and mundanes and any unfortunate occurences are seen to by them as well.
If I were a DA mage i'd choose to live as a free apostate. Putting myself at the mercy of others is not something i'd ever do willingly.
I'm surprised that you'd actually join the Circle of your own free will. I didn't think that anyone would.

[The Elder King]

KainD wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Disrupting mages' mana works better, and it doesn't require weapon (a touch is enough to prevent them to use spells). They can resist blood magic, although it's really difficult. They can use a type of barrier around them that negate some of the effects of the spells (it was used against a fire spells).

So a templar has to touch a mage to drain their mana?

They can drain with weapons too. If you mean if they can drain mana at long-range, I don't know. remember that they used some kind of long-range abilities during the confrontation in the White spire, but I don't recall what effects it had.
I think that templars archer can drain mana too, but my point was more about them non needing to hurt a mage to stop him.

[Treacherous J Slither]

@Darth:

You may have misunderstood me. When I said heavy price I meant freedoms and liberties by being forced into the Circle.

I didn't mean blood magic. There is no heavy price to blood magic.

[The Elder King]

@JsIther: the problem is that not everyone will use blood magic as you do, without hurting innocents or enslaving them. I woudn't trust most mages with blood magic as I wouldn't trust people with powerful weapons.
As for people choosing to live in Circle if they were mages, I'd say you'll find plently of people here who would.

[Treacherous J Slither]

hhh89 wrote...

JSlither wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@JSIther: A mage can do more things than a templar can, true. But I've yet to see mages being as efficient as templars in stopping mages, without the use of blood magic. And no, I don't personally consider gameplay as an effective source for this. Asunder is great in displaying the templars' abilities in fighting and stopping mages.

I haven't read Asunder but from what i've seen Templars typically gang up on their opponents. Numbers advantage.
Also, many Circle mages aren't allowed to train with weapons. Their oppressors have stacked the deck against them. Blood magic is their only hope of being free. Now if it's one maleficar vs one Templar, my money is the guy that isn't being turned inside out.
I'm sure there's a apostate swordmaster out there somewhere though

I'd bet my money on the blood mage too, but actually Asunder shown that a templar can resist blood magic (even if it's really hard) and beat one, in single combat.
Asunder shown better the templar abilities, and it added at least one (a type of barrier that negated part of the magic attacks).
My opinion of blood magic is different from yours. Even if it doesn't have to use by using the blood of other people, it's still a magic that is more stronger the more violence it used. And mages aren't better than normal people. As much as I woudn't trust most of people in using powerful weapons, I woudn't trust most mages in using blood magic.
You said that blood magic is their only hope for being free. I disagree. Because while it's true that it gives them an advantage over templars, there'll be mages that will use blood magic for their own gain and will hurt normal people, and mages for surviving they need the support of some countries. Blood magic is a good way to lose the support they might reach.

There's nothing wrong with using blood magic to defend yourself. There is something wrong with using any power maliciously. Magic or simple martial ability. What matters is how the power is used. Not that you use it.
Just because there are people that abuse their power doesn't mean that everyone or even most will.
Why would a mage need support? Why couldn't they go get a job like anyone else?

[Treacherous J Slither]

hhh89 wrote...

@JsIther: the problem is that not everyone will use blood magic as you do, without hurting innocents or enslaving them. I woudn't trust most mages with blood magic as I wouldn't trust people with powerful weapons.
As for people choosing to live in Circle if they were mages, I'd say you'll find plently of people here who would.

No offense to anyone that would choose the Circle but it seems to me to be a dumb decision.
To me Circle = prison 
Why would anyone willingly go to prison?
Also, IRL there plenty of people with powerful weapons. There are people with access to guns, explosives and nuclear weapons. Yet because of our various law enforcement agencies and international policies, we can live our lives in relative security whether you trust them or not. The same should be true for the DA world. Mages included.

Modifié par JSlither, 22 février 2014 - 09:33 .

[The Elder King]

@JSIther: to 'work like anyone else' they'd first need to make Accord with the countries they want to live on. Or do you think that the various kingdoms will just let mages live in their territories without a problem.
I already stated that I don't have problems with mages using blood magic without hurting innocents. But you have no way to know how a mage would use blood magic. Not everyone will use it like you want to.
As for the Circle, I guess that the reason they'd live in is because they don't believe it's a prison and because the living conditions are better than most of the population in Thedas.

[Treacherous J Slither]

hhh89 wrote...

@JSIther: to 'work like anyone else' they'd first need to make Accord with the countries they want to live on. Or do you think that the various kingdoms will just let mages live in their territories without a problem.
I already stated that I don't have problems with mages using blood magic without hurting innocents. But you have no way to know how a mage would use blood magic. Not everyone will use it like you want to.
As for the Circle, I guess that the reason they'd live in is because they don't believe it's a prison and because the living conditions are better than most of the population in Thedas.

First off, how would they know about every mage in their lands? No one can tell that someone is a mage until they cast a spell.
Look man, there's always gonna be knuckleheads out there. I advocate creating a fighting force made up of mages and and mundanes to go after these knuckleheads and dispense the justice of the land. Where is the flaw in that?
Life in a regular house where you can do as you please?
 Or life in a palace where you're treated like a prisoner?
A gilded cage is still a cage. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

According to the world of threads blood magic has a degenerative effect on the mind, causing mages to eventually desire to use it against others whether they started out wanting to or not. And blood magic by its natural is a price based magic. Its based entirely on pain, and inflicting pain, in exchange for more power. If that isnt a price I dont know what is.

And speaking of prisons that aren't prisons, lets talk about society. Isn't society simply a large prison? You obey the orders of the societies warden or suffer the thread of force by his security officers, you must go to designated places to preform designated tasks for designated times to make money, eat designated meals available at the market you are designated to use, and varying from this routine is not only frowned upon but csn get you arrested or lead to the loss of your job privileges wnd thus your only means of legal income. And god forbid you oppose the will of the warden, or you will forfeit all protection of the prison rules and be forced to either solitary confinement for life or be killed, unless you break out of the society and csn never return again?

The circle is as much a prison as any society is. Neither come near fort drakon and treating them as equal is absurd.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 22 février 2014 - 09:50 .

[Treacherous J Slither]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

JSlither wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@JSIther: I never said that an empire can't stand or rule without being stupid. It's you that stated the opposite.
Regardless, after the magister reached the Fade, there was a chain of events that lead to Tevinter being weakened and losing a lot of their territories. So being stupid lead to their decline.

When the Fade walk happened (if it actually happened at all) -snip-

**** Please.

Screw that guy he's insane...

[Cainhurst Crow]

JSlither wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@JSIther: to 'work like anyone else' they'd first need to make Accord with the countries they want to live on. Or do you think that the various kingdoms will just let mages live in their territories without a problem.
I already stated that I don't have problems with mages using blood magic without hurting innocents. But you have no way to know how a mage would use blood magic. Not everyone will use it like you want to.
As for the Circle, I guess that the reason they'd live in is because they don't believe it's a prison and because the living conditions are better than most of the population in Thedas.

First off, how would they know about every mage in their lands? No one can tell that someone is a mage until they cast a spell.
Look man, there's always gonna be knuckleheads out there. I advocate creating a fighting force made up of mages and and mundanes to go after these knuckleheads and dispense the justice of the land. Where is the flaw in that?
Life in a regular house where you can do as you please?
 Or life in a palace where you're treated like a prisoner?
A gilded cage is still a cage. 

A guilded cage is a good ****ing slice of life compared to a ****ty cage the common folk have to look forward to, and you should be grateful you arent in the fiery cage instead. You can't do as you please in your house, because you are bound to the laws of society. You are watched at all times, your neighbors willing to rat you out if they think it can benefit themselves, and at the mercy of a lord or his repugnant children. Id take nice meals, a warm bed, and loads of books to pass the time and people who care about me in the circle over living free in dusttown or darktown any day.
And your fighting force would become a walking battery for the blood mages in thebupper command after they mind controlled their way up the ranks rather then serve wity their fellow soliders on the front lines. So there's thst danger tight there.

[The Elder King]

@JSIther: So your plan is that after the mages defeat the templars, they'll to on hiding their abilities? I honestly doubt it'll work well.
I'm not against a force composed of mages mundanes with templars abilities. The problem with this is the this force will almost never be able to prevent crimes. And the more crimes some mages will commit (or the times a mage will become an abomination), the more the mundanes will become angry, increasing the risks of innocent mages being harrassed. Plus, since you're in favour of mages using blood magic, those knucleheads have an advantage over your police force. They'll not have problem on fueling blood magic with kills or violence over innocents, which increase the power of blood magic (WoT).
Again, their opinion about the Circle is different from yours. And you understimate how bad the living condition of common people are, as well as overstimating the freedom common people have in Thedas.

[Cainhurst Crow]

JSlither wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

JSlither wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@JSIther: I never said that an empire can't stand or rule without being stupid. It's you that stated the opposite.
Regardless, after the magister reached the Fade, there was a chain of events that lead to Tevinter being weakened and losing a lot of their territories. So being stupid lead to their decline.

When the Fade walk happened (if it actually happened at all) -snip-

**** Please.

Screw that guy he's insane...

Your boy anders believed him.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

According to the world of threads blood magic has a degenerative effect on the mind, causing mages to eventually desire to use it against others whether they started out wanting to or not. And blood magic by its natural is a price based magic. Its based entirely on pain, and inflicting pain, in exchange for more power. If that isnt a price I dont know what is.

And speaking of prisons that aren't prisons, lets talk about society. Isn't society simply a large prison? You obey the orders of the societies warden or suffer the thread of force by his security officers, you must go to designated places to preform designated tasks for designated times to make money, eat designated meals available at the market you are designated to use, and varying from this routine is not only frowned upon but csn get you arrested or lead to the loss of your job privileges wnd thus your only means of legal income. And god forbid you oppose the will of the warden, or you will forfeit all protection of the prison rules and be forced to either solitary confinement for life or be killed, unless you break out of the society and csn never return again?

The circle is as much a prison as any society is. Neither come near fort drakon and treating them as equal is absurd.

So they retconned blood magic into the dark side of the Force?

I knew this would happen. I just KNEW they were gonna ruin blood magic for me.

I'm sad now. All my mages are screwed. There is no way out. No hope. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[The Elder King]

JSIther: insane or not, you can't discount Corypheus's words. He IS one to the ancient magister that reached the Fade. We can discuss about the Golden city, but they did reach the Fade by sacrificing slaves and lyrium.

[The Elder King]

You can actually use blood magic his by inflicting yourself pain, and not to others, but it'll be weaker. I don't remember well about the degenerative effect, but blood magic obviously has a cost.

[Cainhurst Crow]

JSlither wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

According to the world of threads blood magic has a degenerative effect on the mind, causing mages to eventually desire to use it against others whether they started out wanting to or not. And blood magic by its natural is a price based magic. Its based entirely on pain, and inflicting pain, in exchange for more power. If that isnt a price I dont know what is.

And speaking of prisons that aren't prisons, lets talk about society. Isn't society simply a large prison? You obey the orders of the societies warden or suffer the thread of force by his security officers, you must go to designated places to preform designated tasks for designated times to make money, eat designated meals available at the market you are designated to use, and varying from this routine is not only frowned upon but csn get you arrested or lead to the loss of your job privileges wnd thus your only means of legal income. And god forbid you oppose the will of the warden, or you will forfeit all protection of the prison rules and be forced to either solitary confinement for life or be killed, unless you break out of the society and csn never return again?

The circle is as much a prison as any society is. Neither come near fort drakon and treating them as equal is absurd.

So they retconned blood magic into the dark side of the Force?

I knew this would happen. I just KNEW they were gonna ruin blood magic for me.

I'm sad now. All my mages are screwed. There is no way out. No hope. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Its always been that way since the beginning, IE there has never been a blood magic who hasnt used their talents to harm people.
Jowan used it on everyone in the circle to escape plus the arls wife if you let him.
Merril uses it routinely on her enemies who shes in battle and isnt phased by causing fade tears that csn let demons I to the world.
And the PC in both games have used blood magic on countless people and creatures, every ti.e they've used any of the talents.
The only non-double edged blood mages out there have been ones in fanfiction and nothing else.

[Treacherous J Slither]

@DB:

Anders ain't my boy. I'm pro mage but he's a real POS.

First he murders that girl and doesn't off himself like he should've, then he commits genocide and has the nerve to tell me it was for the best. **** that dood.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Good man.