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[The Elder King]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

blood magic is obviously an offensive type of magic, but elemental is too. They're obviously used for harming others. The use Jowan did (using his blood to fight templars), is no different of the use any mage do of dire and electric spells.
There's nothing wrong in using your own blood to fuel spells. Problem is, mages often don't stop at that.
By the way, Darth, are you sure that in WoT is stated that BM has a degenerative effect on the mind? I recall the pain-powering part and increasing risks in demon possession.

Technically Elemental magic can also be used to heat a forge, water a field, cooling down goods, and a multidue of other purposes than simply inflict damage on another. Blood magic, not so much.

You're right. But my point was that it you criticize blood magic becuase you use it to harm others (as Jowan did in the mage origin, as Darth Bretorian did), you have to criticize the use of elemental magic to harm others.

[Dave of Canada]

Phoenixalex wrote...

Magic is not the problem it is the person who wields it *snip*

A sword or bow can be witnessed, regulated and disarmed.
A sword or bow cannot be used to raise the dead, mind control others and make areas uninhabitable.
A lone swordsman or archer cannot realistically kill hundreds of people out in the open before being stopped.
A sword or bow doesn't possess or tempt an individual in a moment of crisis.
A swordsman or archer can never open a dimensional portal to the universe's version of hell.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

How naive.

Mages are more like nukesthan knives. Giving everyone nukes does NOT solve the problem.

I always hated the "Mages are like nukes" argument. The most blatant example of hyperbole in the entire issue. At least compare them to something reasonable. Unless you have evidence that the average mage can wipe out tens of thousands of people in an instant.

"Nuke" is easier to type than a "Tomahawk cruise missile with only a partially operational guidance system". It is an exaggeration, but it gets the point across.

They can say "bomb". Same amount of letters as nuke, same basic principle as in something that can suddenly explode without warning, yet keeps the scale to something actually relatable.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 22 février 2014 - 01:39 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Chaoticos wrote...

Ok, sorry, but this rambling of the poor mages is getting on my nerves, I mean it is not the every one else lives in a golder age and just the poor mages have to suffer injustice.

The live is ****ty everywhere else too, so it would be great if the pro-mages take that into consideration..

Well, I'm going to shut up now, have a nice day.

Who says they don't? Most Pro-Mages also argue for better lives for the other oppressed groups too, like the City Elves and Casteless Dwarves.

I have yet to see anyone argue that Orzammar should be torn down so that the Casteless could be free...

But people have argued about changing or eliminating the caste system.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

JSlither wrote...
If the bad guy is a master swordsman, others with equal or comparable skill may be brought in to take him down.
If the bad guy is a master archer the same applies.

If the bad guy is a mage the same should apply. Who better to combat powerful mages than other powerful mages?


Think of magic like it's a knife. Is a knife more of a threat or is it more of a resource? I say resource. A skilled artisan can make something beautiful by carving wood or clay. A cook can use it to help prepare a meal. When used properly and for the right reasons, a knife is a wonderful resource. However, in the hands of the unskilled a knife becomes potentially harmful to the wielder and to those around him. In the hands of those with bad intentions the dangers are even more sever.

However the solution is not to ban knives but to teach people how to use them properly. And if someone uses it to harm another, the people should see to it that justice is served. The same should be true of magic.

How naive.

Mages are more like nukesthan knives. Giving everyone nukes does NOT solve the problem.

Also, a mage and a master swordsman are not comparable. At all. Combat-wise, in the game they are because CLASS BALANCE.
But can a swordsman mind-control you? Can he drain your very life to fuel his power?
Are demons attracted/aware of him?

No.
Using mages to fight abominations is not really smart, given that abominations want to create more of their kind.

Nukes do nothing but destroy.

Magic can heal and has far more practical use than a nuke. I used a knife in my example because  I wanted to show that something that can be used as a weapon can also have utility in everyday life. Like magic. 

Btw abominations can also force demons into mundanes. I know that if I was a Templar i'd like to have some mages fighting alongside me when i'm battling demons, abominations, and evil maleficarum. A Spirit Healer is a boon to any fighting force. 

[Treacherous J Slither]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Phoenixalex wrote...

Magic is not the problem it is the person who wields it *snip*

A sword or bow can be witnessed, regulated and disarmed.
A sword or bow cannot be used to raise the dead, mind control others and make areas uninhabitable.
A lone swordsman or archer cannot realistically kill hundreds of people out in the open before being stopped.
A sword or bow doesn't possess or tempt an individual in a moment of crisis.
A swordsman or archer can never open a dimensional portal to the universe's version of hell.

All of these things are true. I'm unaware of any mage supporter stating otherwise.

Magic is more powerful and needs to be watched over by brave men and women, mage and mundane to ensure  the safety of the people as best they can. Do you disagree?

[BlueMagitek]

What Bioware needs to do is roll on the Perils of the Warp table as, say, a 10% chance for whenever magic is cast. That'd be fun.

Circle Tower level would be significantly harder.

[Star fury]

Magic doesn't kill people, people do.

[BlueMagitek]

Star fury wrote...

Magic doesn't kill people, people do.

Well, actually, considering that mages are like, dummied down psykers, magic does certainly have the potential to kill people.  Hence the abomination thing.

[Shadow Raziel]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

In all honesty for the most part it doesn't matter how the story is portrayed. It comes down to people's personal views on life:

Good of the many over good of the individual-Pro templar
Individual rights and freedoms trump all else-Pro Mage
Duty and discipline over personal happiness-Pro templar
Personal happiness over sense of duty or obligation-Pro mage
Positive view of religion-Pro chantry
Negative view of religion-Anti chantry


You can further break this out to stance on Dalish, Tevinter, Qunari, etc but I will leave it here.

And yes there will be exceptions, if for no other reason than some of you are difficult, but do 90-95% of us, this is how we will choose in a very basic sense.

What happen to all the pro-circle mages and the mages and templar that actually want to work together. It's not just those extremes.

I think those would be those who have a combination of the two points.

lol do you remember how many abominations you had to dispose of? the point was simply. Orsino seemed reasonable, but in the end he himself turned against all he had been so piously preaching. many of the mages did and proved the point of the templars. pushed or not. could you take someone like that into battle with you when the first sign of trouble or their life being threatened they turn? keep in mind I sided with the mages the first time around. do you recall who kidnapped Bethany from the circle? apostate mages. who killed Hawkes mother? when Orsino pulled that stunt, I realized the S on my chest did not stand for Superman it stood for sucker. Anders terroristic action undid everything I had strived to achieve. killing the one person dedicated to rationale thought... In the final analysis you have to choose a side. a lot of innocent templars died over an ideology as well. such is the evil of wars. obectivley speaking there was a lot of collateral damage from both, two extremist Anders and Meredith.  Do I have a better solution? no. But regardess of which side I choose I will be killing abominations with no hope of coming back. the question remains will I be killing Templars who at some point could rationalize and change?. Am I paving the way for a new and greater tevinter, I think not. look at the contained damage in  the DAO circle. without the intervention of the warden do you believe the mages sort it out? I think not..

In other words, yeah they have the potential to be dangerous. it's not as cut and dry as they are being oppressed because they are different, or because of their skin color, religion ect. I will make the tough decisions this time around.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Actually, Bethany or Carver are kidnapped by both mages and Templars.

[Jigglypuff]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Phoenixalex wrote...

Magic is not the problem it is the person who wields it *snip*

A sword or bow can be witnessed, regulated and disarmed.
A sword or bow cannot be used to raise the dead, mind control others and make areas uninhabitable.
A lone swordsman or archer cannot realistically kill hundreds of people out in the open before being stopped.
A sword or bow doesn't possess or tempt an individual in a moment of crisis.
A swordsman or archer can never open a dimensional portal to the universe's version of hell.

That's not always true (rouges) and the same can be done to mages with the templars around or a convenient blade to the throat.

True but it can be used to pressure people into creating attrocious acts just as deadly though not as immediate, pressure and coercion can just as well be mind control, In a world without magic we have seen that happen far to often, the weapon is only as deadly as the wielder.

Yes that's why I agree with the concept of the circle just not with the current system, It needs to be revamped and a reasonable compromise must be reached and also a non-mage may not be able to do that immediately but they can have just as deadly an outcome, a single swordsman/archer with much influence can create a situation wherein the result may aswell be the same though the methods different.

As I said it is the individual, a swordsman or archer can just as well lose their cool and be tempted to do terrible things in a crisis, they may not be possesed or turn into an abomination with as much power but their acts can be just as lethal.

Yes but they can make the world a living hell.

[Master Warder Z_]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Actually, Bethany or Carver are kidnapped by both mages and Templars.

I refuse to see Thrask as a templar; **** May as well be a mage.

[Cainhurst Crow]

hhh89 wrote...

blood magic is obviously an offensive type of magic, but elemental is too. They're obviously used for harming others. The use Jowan did (using his blood to fight templars), is no different of the use any mage do of dire and electric spells.
There's nothing wrong in using your own blood to fuel spells. Problem is, mages often don't stop at that.
By the way, Darth, are you sure that in WoT is stated that BM has a degenerative effect on the mind? I recall the pain-powering part and increasing risks in demon possession.

I should probably clarify since so many people have been confused by my comment. The degenerative effect is the temptation to use bloog magic sgianst others, not that a blood mage goes bonkers and then wants to use his magic on others. I think from my own view its like an addiction thst slowly grows, and eventually leads down the path of becoming a maleficarum, though pondering I suppose a person could theoretically resist the effect if strong willed enough. 

[The Elder King]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Actually, Bethany or Carver are kidnapped by both mages and Templars.

I refuse to see Thrask as a templar; **** May as well be a mage.

What do you think of Alrik? Did he pass your standard of templar?
@Darth Bretorian: Thanks for explaining your point. I agree with your opinion. As I've already said, I wouldn't trust many mages in using blood magic.

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Actually, Bethany or Carver are kidnapped by both mages and Templars.

I refuse to see Thrask as a templar; **** May as well be a mage.

What do you think of Alrik? Did he pass your standard of templar?

They are both horrible Templars.

[Master Warder Z_]

[quote]hhh89 wrote...

[quote]Master Warder Z wrote...

[quote]LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Actually, Bethany or Carver are kidnapped by both mages and Templars.[/quote]
I refuse to see Thrask as a templar; **** May as well be a mage.
[/quote]
What do you think of Alrik? Did he pass your standard of templar?
/quote]
No but he wasn't an idiot and had a decent idea when it came to the tranquil solution.

Likely would have prevented the Kirkwall rebellion and denied that nutter anders his fuse to set the world on fire.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

JSlither wrote...

What factors into choosing one of these stances is the level of danger you believe mages pose to society. So far I haven't seen anything that warrants them being locked up and villified instead of simply trained to control their abilities and to be able to fight off demons. Also, if and when something unfortunate occurs, a Templar like organization made up of mages and mundanes can respond and resolve the situation as necessary.
What I see in the current system is simple fear and ignorance of magic by those who lack the power themselves.

And mages ARE trained.
And guess what? It isn't enough.

Not to mention that by Word of God, mages and especially abominations are seriously underpowered in the game, as opposed to the reality/lore of Thedas.

Yeah you keep saying that but lore also states that abominations are not that powerful. Meredith sister only killed a couple dozen unarmded peasants . they become a problem when you face a large amount of demons however

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Actually, Bethany or Carver are kidnapped by both mages and Templars.

I refuse to see Thrask as a templar; **** May as well be a mage.

What do you think of Alrik? Did he pass your standard of templar?

They are both horrible Templars.

You can blame Ms. Meredith for letting them in the doors.

[Master Warder Z_]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

JSlither wrote...

What factors into choosing one of these stances is the level of danger you believe mages pose to society. So far I haven't seen anything that warrants them being locked up and villified instead of simply trained to control their abilities and to be able to fight off demons. Also, if and when something unfortunate occurs, a Templar like organization made up of mages and mundanes can respond and resolve the situation as necessary.
What I see in the current system is simple fear and ignorance of magic by those who lack the power themselves.

And mages ARE trained.
And guess what? It isn't enough.

Not to mention that by Word of God, mages and especially abominations are seriously underpowered in the game, as opposed to the reality/lore of Thedas.

Yeah you keep saying that but lore also states that abominations are not that powerful. Meredith sister only killed a couple dozen unarmded peasants . they become a problem when you face a large amount of demons however

One Revannt killed nearly an entire platoon of Antivian Templars during the Storm Age, More oft then not he has the right of it Abominations, Demons and etc are seriously, seriously unpowered in regards to gameplay abilities and etc.

I'd agrue treat them as a larger threat not a lesser considering that Arcane Horrors, Abominations, Revannts and etc while the high end abominations are still abominations even a rage abomination can kill dozens of people before its destroyed and it only gets worse.

So how exactly is qualifying them as a lesser threat sound? Little lone sane.

[Master Warder Z_]

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Actually, Bethany or Carver are kidnapped by both mages and Templars.

I refuse to see Thrask as a templar; **** May as well be a mage.

What do you think of Alrik? Did he pass your standard of templar?

They are both horrible Templars.

You can blame Ms. Meredith for letting them in the doors.

Erm actually considering both their ages, ranks and etc?

They likely predate Meredith's acension in to command in 9:21 Dragon which if you look at the timeline only nine years before the events of DAO.

[TK514]

eluvianix wrote...

You can blame Ms. Meredith for letting them in the doors.

Not necessarily true.  Either could have been a transfer like Cullen.

[Lotion Soronarr]

JSlither wrote...
Isabella: "I never give in to temptation."

Any person that is so arrogant to belive that they will never givein to temptation, no matter how much you tempt them (and that therefore no amount of power given to them is dangerous) has already fallen and should never be given power of any kind.
Period.

[The Elder King]

@MisterJB: I can agree with this. Thrask was a better men than Alrik, but he failed as templars, even if for different reasons of Alrik.
@Master Warder Z: I disagree with your opinion of the tranquil solution (expecially becuase Alrik's whole reasons was to be free in raping mages and to cover his ass in the case he was found out). He was an idiot, in my opinion.
It might've been prevented problems in Kirkwall, but it'd have triggered the mage rebellion in general as Anders and Asunder did.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

How naive.

Mages are more like nukesthan knives. Giving everyone nukes does NOT solve the problem.

I always hated the "Mages are like nukes" argument. The most blatant example of hyperbole in the entire issue. At least compare them to something reasonable. Unless you have evidence that the average mage can wipe out tens of thousands of people in an instant.

There is nothing  reasonable to compare them with. That is the problem.
Doesn't stop pro-mages from comparing them with pistols and knives.

But they are certanly closer to nukes than knives. A powerfull abomination can level an entire city.