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[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

You can blame Ms. Meredith for letting them in the doors.

Not necessarily true.  Either could have been a transfer like Cullen.

Joking. Man, tough crowd today.

[TK514]

DKJaigen wrote...
Yeah you keep saying that but lore also states that abominations are not that powerful. Meredith sister only killed a couple dozen unarmded peasants . they become a problem when you face a large amount of demons however

I like how, when you don't have an argument, you just make things up and hope no one notices.

We know the exact number of people Meredith's sister killed: 72.  That's considerably more than 'a couple dozen'.  What we don't know is if they were all civilians.  With that, and given that Word of a God AND the relevant codex entries on Abominations both highlight the discrepancy between gameplay and lore, I have to wonder why you even bothered to chime in here.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Phoenixalex wrote...

Magic is not the problem it is the person who wields it *snip*

A sword or bow can be witnessed, regulated and disarmed.
A sword or bow cannot be used to raise the dead, mind control others and make areas uninhabitable.
A lone swordsman or archer cannot realistically kill hundreds of people out in the open before being stopped.
A sword or bow doesn't possess or tempt an individual in a moment of crisis.
A swordsman or archer can never open a dimensional portal to the universe's version of hell.

Nukes do nothing but destroy.

Magic can heal and has far more
practical use than a nuke. I used a knife in my example because  I
wanted to show that something that can be used as a weapon can also have
utility in everyday life. Like magic.

nuclear power?

Btw abominations can also
force demons into mundanes. I know that if I was a Templar i'd like to
have some mages fighting alongside me when i'm battling demons,
abominations, and evil maleficarum. A Spirit Healer is a boon to any
fighting force. 

Mundanes possesedby demons don't become abominations.
Also abominations target mages to create more abominations.

So given the potential problem of suddenly having to fight TWO abominations....

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
But they are certanly closer to nukes than knives. A powerfull abomination can level an entire city.

A tad bit of exaggeration. Granted, I know they are very powerful, but do we actually have an example of an abomination in the lore that actually could pull that off?

[Master Warder Z_]

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
But they are certanly closer to nukes than knives. A powerfull abomination can level an entire city.

A tad bit of exaggeration. Granted, I know they are very powerful, but do we actually have an example of an abomination in the lore that actually could pull that off?

One Codex entry details a town slaughtered by an abomination while the templars were pursuing him.

Not a city but a township.

[The Elder King]

Master Warder Z wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

A tad bit of exaggeration. Granted, I know they are very powerful, but do we actually have an example of an abomination in the lore that actually could pull that off?

One Codex entry details a town slaughtered by an abomination while the templars were pursuing him.

Not a city but a township.

Eluvianix was probably referring to the city-size level of destruction part. they can destroy a town, but I don't think they can destroy a city of the size of Denerim. They can' certainly make massive damage though.

Modifié par hhh89, 22 février 2014 - 05:52 .

[Star fury]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I should probably clarify since so many people have been confused by my comment. The degenerative effect is the temptation to use bloog magic sgianst others, not that a blood mage goes bonkers and then wants to use his magic on others. I think from my own view its like an addiction thst slowly grows, and eventually leads down the path of becoming a maleficarum, though pondering I suppose a person could theoretically resist the effect if strong willed enough. 

I'm not interested in your fanon, where is your quote from World of Thedas that the blood magic has "a degenerative effect on the mind"? Do you have it or not?

Modifié par Star fury, 22 février 2014 - 06:50 .

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

How naive.

Mages are more like nukesthan knives. Giving everyone nukes does NOT solve the problem.

I always hated the "Mages are like nukes" argument. The most blatant example of hyperbole in the entire issue. At least compare them to something reasonable. Unless you have evidence that the average mage can wipe out tens of thousands of people in an instant.

There is nothing  reasonable to compare them with. That is the problem.
Doesn't stop pro-mages from comparing them with pistols and knives.

But they are certanly closer to nukes than knives. A powerfull abomination can level an entire city.

We have not yet seen such abomination.

[wcholcombe]

Well, one could argue that many suspect Flemeth of being an Abomination and I think she would be quite capable of leveling denerim.

I personally think that minus templars in the area or world saving heroes, Uldred and company could have destroyed Denerim.

[wcholcombe]

From the wiki:

"There are stories of abominations that have ravaged entire settlements or even gone on to tyrannize a countryside for years after their creation."

[wcholcombe]

Closest i can find on bloodmagic is it being addictive and temptation.

Common wisdom holds that there is no way to use blood magic with good intentions. Inevitably, even blood mages who tap their own blood find a need for the power of others, or find a need to control minds or summon demons.[7] The use of blood magic itself is treacherous; as it allows the Veil to be opened completely so that demons may physically pass through it into the physical world

[Dean_the_Young]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

How naive.

Mages are more like nukesthan knives. Giving everyone nukes does NOT solve the problem.

I always hated the "Mages are like nukes" argument. The most blatant example of hyperbole in the entire issue. At least compare them to something reasonable. Unless you have evidence that the average mage can wipe out tens of thousands of people in an instant.

There is nothing  reasonable to compare them with. That is the problem.
Doesn't stop pro-mages from comparing them with pistols and knives.

But they are certanly closer to nukes than knives. A powerfull abomination can level an entire city.

The best comparison would probably be biological in nature. Diseases that burn themselves out in a pre-mass mobility civilization could have similar localized casualty clusters. That's the root of the quarantine analogy.

On the Templar side, though, the better analogy is probably chemical warfare. It's highly context-dependent damage that can range from body counts in the hundreds to a few dozen (not including injuries) depending on how prepared the victims are in advance.

[Shadow Raziel]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Actually, Bethany or Carver are kidnapped by both mages and Templars.

All  of them like minded ideological people. using unethical means to fight an inustice. much like Anders, the ends justify the means. are templars and mages really that different in the way they go about achieveing their goals?. I have noticed an inordinate amount of mage apologist and victimization. meeting oppression. They became the very thing those who preach about the mages, and dangers of magic  have preached.a billboard saying> I told you so.. further reinforce stereotypes. if Orsino had not flipped. I would have went to the wall for the circle.  Not this time around. my rogue will side with the chantry, barring some horrible douche in the chantry or some new maor revelation. if it's as abstract and dense as the SL in II? I will side with the Chantry and be done with it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm pretty firmly against blood magic but I went back and I think looked and the closet thing that World of Thedas says about blood magic affecting the mind is that conventional wisdom holds that Blood mages will eventually succumb to temptation to hurt others for power.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Star fury wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I should probably clarify since so many people have been confused by my comment. The degenerative effect is the temptation to use bloog magic sgianst others, not that a blood mage goes bonkers and then wants to use his magic on others. I think from my own view its like an addiction thst slowly grows, and eventually leads down the path of becoming a maleficarum, though pondering I suppose a person could theoretically resist the effect if strong willed enough. 

I'm not interested in your fanon, where is your quote from World of Thedas that the blood magic has "a degenerative effect on the mind"? Do you have it or not?

World of thedas, Page 107, Blood magic

"...All blood mages who use their own blood will eventually find themselves tempted by the additional power to be gained from spilling the blood of others."

There is no counter to this claim made in the book, and the section goes further to explain how even in the tevinter imperium, blood magic is frowned upon and highly taboo. A magister in the section "Responsible Blood Magic" even beratting her student and going in depth into how each idolized blood mage has in some way been either overly glorified or whose actions had horrid consequences.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yeah but it says "Common wisdom holds" at the start of that sentence.

[KaiserShep]

To be fair, temptation is not the same as a degenerative effect.

[TK514]

eluvianix wrote...

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

You can blame Ms. Meredith for letting them in the doors.

Not necessarily true.  Either could have been a transfer like Cullen.

Joking. Man, tough crowd today.

Templar vs Mage topics are SRS BSNS, Cousin Kenobi.  *disapproving frownyface*

SRS.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Yeah but it says "Common wisdom holds" at the start of that sentence.

And doesn't ever offer a counter point to how common wisdom is wrong/inaccurate. For example, if I state that common wisdom holds 2 + 2 is 4, there isn't an asterisk that comes out saying that it may or may not be 4, it just is.

If it said Common wisdom holds....but this is far from accurate. Or Common wisdom holds...., though things are less black and white then that.

Then I might actually have some doubt, but as it stands, the book offered no counter point, therefore it holds that this fact about blood magic is that, a fact.

Common wisdom are things everyone knows; The sky is blue, water is wet, things fall down, farts smell bad, are all facts that are common wisdom. If there is no point that states the common wisdom is incorrect, then it is simply a fact everyone knows, and not a flawed assumption.

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

TK514 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

You can blame Ms. Meredith for letting them in the doors.

Not necessarily true.  Either could have been a transfer like Cullen.

Joking. Man, tough crowd today.

Templar vs Mage topics are SRS BSNS, Cousin Kenobi.  *disapproving frownyface*

SRS.

[Cainhurst Crow]

KaiserShep wrote...

To be fair, temptation is not the same as a degenerative effect.

A person would not feel temptation if they hadn't felt it the first time using it or since. The all encompassing net the statement casts leaves no doubt that the temptation is an inevitability. That to me sounds like a degeneration on a persons mind, as it is a thought that enters a persons mind regardless of their motives or drives, and is a degredation o their moral and ethical guides, which exists in the mind.

I also clarified after I saw a lot of people misunderstanding what I meant by degenerative effect, since upon seeing the reacion I realized how it might be taken the wrong way.

[Anvos]

Master Warder Z wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

JSlither wrote...

What factors into choosing one of these stances is the level of danger you believe mages pose to society. So far I haven't seen anything that warrants them being locked up and villified instead of simply trained to control their abilities and to be able to fight off demons. Also, if and when something unfortunate occurs, a Templar like organization made up of mages and mundanes can respond and resolve the situation as necessary.
What I see in the current system is simple fear and ignorance of magic by those who lack the power themselves.

And mages ARE trained.
And guess what? It isn't enough.

Not to mention that by Word of God, mages and especially abominations are seriously underpowered in the game, as opposed to the reality/lore of Thedas.

Yeah you keep saying that but lore also states that abominations are not that powerful. Meredith sister only killed a couple dozen unarmded peasants . they become a problem when you face a large amount of demons however

One Revannt killed nearly an entire platoon of Antivian Templars during the Storm Age, More oft then not he has the right of it Abominations, Demons and etc are seriously, seriously unpowered in regards to gameplay abilities and etc.

I'd agrue treat them as a larger threat not a lesser considering that Arcane Horrors, Abominations, Revannts and etc while the high end abominations are still abominations even a rage abomination can kill dozens of people before its destroyed and it only gets worse.

So how exactly is qualifying them as a lesser threat sound? Little lone sane.

Renvants and Arcane Horrors aren't abominations though, their the result of a Desire or Pride Demon possessing a corpse.

[Cainhurst Crow]

So abominations are suppose to be worse the arcane horrors and revannts? Jesus christ did bioware screw up with the gameplay.

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


There is nothing reasonable to compare them with. That is the problem.
Doesn't stop pro-mages from comparing them with pistols and knives.

But they are certanly closer to nukes than knives. A powerfull abomination can level an entire city.

"Mages are like nukes" IS hyperbole and is hardly a "close comparison". If you want a valid comparison, call them akin to artillery. Devastating effects on the land if **** goes wrong, but the land is still habitable.

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


There is nothing reasonable to compare them with. That is the problem.
Doesn't stop pro-mages from comparing them with pistols and knives.

But they are certanly closer to nukes than knives. A powerfull abomination can level an entire city.

"Mages are like nukes" IS hyperbole and is hardly a "close comparison". If you want a valid comparison, call them akin to artillery. Devastating effects on the land if **** goes wrong, but the land is still habitable.

I don't know if I would want to live in an area that got Fade-warped like Circle Tower.  That was nasty.