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Uneven Presentation of the mage-templar conflict


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#1626
TK514

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


There is nothing reasonable to compare them with. That is the problem.
Doesn't stop pro-mages from comparing them with pistols and knives.

But they are certanly closer to nukes than knives. A powerfull abomination can level an entire city.


"Mages are like nukes" IS hyperbole and is hardly a "close comparison". If you want a valid comparison, call them akin to artillery. Devastating effects on the land if **** goes wrong, but the land is still habitable.


So self-aware main battle tanks vs horse cavalry.

#1627
durasteel

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LDS Darth Revan wrote...
They can say "bomb". Same amount of letters as nuke, same basic principle as in something that can suddenly explode without warning, yet keeps the scale to something actually relatable.

Meredith: What happen?

Cullen: Someone set up us the mage.

Cullen: We get signal.

Meredith: Eluvian turn on.

Anders: How are you gentlemen!!!!

Anders: All your Circle are belong to us.

Meredith: What you say!

Anders: You have no chance to survive make your time.
  • Grieving Natashina et EmissaryofLies aiment ceci

#1628
durasteel

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Darth Brotarian wrote...
And doesn't ever offer a counter point to how common wisdom is wrong/inaccurate. For example, if I state that common wisdom holds 2 + 2 is 4, there isn't an asterisk that comes out saying that it may or may not be 4, it just is. 

If it said Common wisdom holds....but this is far from accurate. Or Common wisdom holds...., though things are less black and white then that. 

Then I might actually have some doubt, but as it stands, the book offered no counter point, therefore it holds that this fact about blood magic is that, a fact. 

Common wisdom are things everyone knows; The sky is blue, water is wet, things fall down, farts smell bad, are all facts that are common wisdom. If there is no point that states the common wisdom is incorrect, then it is simply a fact everyone knows, and not a flawed assumption. 

No, common wisdom is what everyone thinks they know, but might be totally wrong about. Your "sky is blue" list consists of observed fact, not common wisdom. 

According to Webster's, it is "opinions or beliefs that are held or accepted by most people. [E.g.:] Conventional wisdom in Hollywood says that a movie can't succeed unless it stars a famous actor or actress."

It is infered in the very concept of common or conventional wisdom that it might very well be wrong. There is no need to offer a "counter point" as you suggest.

#1629
durasteel

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wcholcombe wrote...

Well, one could argue that many suspect Flemeth of being an Abomination and I think she would be quite capable of leveling denerim.

I personally think that minus templars in the area or world saving heroes, Uldred and company could have destroyed Denerim.

That's kind of silly. An archdemon leading an army of darkspawn spent a whole day in Denerim and only managed to make a big mess, neither Flemeth nor Uldred & Co. come close to that level of destructive power.

Sandal, maybe. Who knows the limits of "not enchantment?"

#1630
Hanako Ikezawa

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durasteel wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
They can say "bomb". Same amount of letters as nuke, same basic principle as in something that can suddenly explode without warning, yet keeps the scale to something actually relatable.

Meredith: What happen?

Cullen: Someone set up us the mage.

Cullen: We get signal.

Meredith: Eluvian turn on.

Anders: How are you gentlemen!!!!

Anders: All your Circle are belong to us.

Meredith: What you say!

Anders: You have no chance to survive make your time.

lol. It would only have been better is Merrill and not Cullen said "Eluvian turn on" but that would imply an extra character.

#1631
durasteel

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A mage isn't like a knife, or a bomb. A mage is like an scientist or an engineer.

For an engineer, knowledge + technology gives the ability to effect change, to light a fire, build a bridge, or create and deploy a nuclear weapon to wipe out a city.

For a mage, knowledge + a power reservoir (mana, lyrium, blood) give the ability to effect change, whether it's lighting a candle, building a tower, or causing the ground to swallow Arlathan.

The difference is that anyone can use science, engineering, or technology. Anyone can apply the basic tech of a few sticks, a knife, and a piece of string to light a fire. Anyone can learn to build a basic winch and crane to move blocks of stone. Anyone with the recipe can assemble a Qunari bomb and light the fuse.

Magic, however, is available only to those born with the ability, and that's what get people up in arms about it. If every person in Thedas were born with the ability to use magic, there wouldn't be this "mage vs templar" problem. The issue is, at its core, a matter of a very few people being born with an ability which makes all of them put together about as powerful as everyone else. In some places, the few dominate the many, like in Tevinter. In other places, the many dominate the few, as in Orlais. Both groups probably look at the places where there is balance and cooperation (like Rivain) and say to themselves "we ought to be running that place, our side should take over."

That's what makes this conflict interesting.

#1632
Master Warder Z_

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durasteel wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
They can say "bomb". Same amount of letters as nuke, same basic principle as in something that can suddenly explode without warning, yet keeps the scale to something actually relatable.

Meredith: What happen?

Cullen: Someone set up us the mage.

Cullen: We get signal.

Meredith: Eluvian turn on.

Anders: How are you gentlemen!!!!

Anders: All your Circle are belong to us.

Meredith: What you say!

Anders: You have no chance to survive make your time.

:o

:pinched:

:lol:

ROFL.

Anders is certainly a decent stand in for CATS

Pity he didn't through in the HaHaHa though.

#1633
Lotion Soronarr

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eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
But they are certanly closer to nukes than knives. A powerfull abomination can level an entire city.


A tad bit of exaggeration. Granted, I know they are very powerful, but do we actually have an example of an abomination in the lore that actually could pull that off?


Well, a sufficiently smart and powerfull one could. given time.

Take Connor for example - imagine if the Warded didn't stop him. Then Redcliffe would have fallen. The army of the abomination would have swelled in size. It would strike neighbouring villages, further growing it's ranks - capturing mages and forcefull possesing them (like Uldred).
So I'm not talking about instant destruction - like casting a lvl 999 fireball that destroys a city - rather a slower pace.
Corruption, drawing more and more demons and gaining strength.

If not stoped early on, an abomination has the potential to unleash a blight-level destruction.
Luckily, they tend to be destroyed early on.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 23 février 2014 - 12:27 .


#1634
Anvos

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
But they are certanly closer to nukes than knives. A powerfull abomination can level an entire city.


A tad bit of exaggeration. Granted, I know they are very powerful, but do we actually have an example of an abomination in the lore that actually could pull that off?


Well, a sufficiently smart and powerfull one could. given time.

Take Connor for example - imagine if the Warded didn't stop him. Then Redcliffe would have fallen. The army of the abomination would have swelled in size. It would strike neighbouring villages, further growing it's ranks - capturing mages and forcefull possesing them (like Uldred).
So I'm not talking about instant destruction - like casting a lvl 999 fireball that destroys a city - rather a slower pace.
Corruption, drawing more and more demons and gaining strength.

If not stoped early on, an abomination has the potential to unleash a blight-level destruction.
Luckily, they tend to be destroyed early on.


Connor is actually a bad example since he would have ran into the Darkspawn Horde before going further and that's even saying that its actions didn't unleash an even stronger fade demon that would try and overthrow him on principle. 

Also one needs to keep in mind that the only reason help didn't arrive was because others were tied up in a civil war or fighting the blight.

Modifié par Anvos, 23 février 2014 - 12:42 .


#1635
wcholcombe

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durasteel wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Well, one could argue that many suspect Flemeth of being an Abomination and I think she would be quite capable of leveling denerim.

I personally think that minus templars in the area or world saving heroes, Uldred and company could have destroyed Denerim.

That's kind of silly. An archdemon leading an army of darkspawn spent a whole day in Denerim and only managed to make a big mess, neither Flemeth nor Uldred & Co. come close to that level of destructive power.

Sandal, maybe. Who knows the limits of "not enchantment?"

I personally dont know how denerim wasn't rubble when we got there.  However, Flemeth in dragon form ciuld burn denerim to ash and rubble in a day.

I think Uldred and his crew could do likewise.  Physically Denerim may still be there, but I wouldn't consider it intact.

Modifié par wcholcombe, 23 février 2014 - 12:53 .


#1636
wcholcombe

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Anvos wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
But they are certanly closer to nukes than knives. A powerfull abomination can level an entire city.


A tad bit of exaggeration. Granted, I know they are very powerful, but do we actually have an example of an abomination in the lore that actually could pull that off?


Well, a sufficiently smart and powerfull one could. given time.

Take Connor for example - imagine if the Warded didn't stop him. Then Redcliffe would have fallen. The army of the abomination would have swelled in size. It would strike neighbouring villages, further growing it's ranks - capturing mages and forcefull possesing them (like Uldred).
So I'm not talking about instant destruction - like casting a lvl 999 fireball that destroys a city - rather a slower pace.
Corruption, drawing more and more demons and gaining strength.

If not stoped early on, an abomination has the potential to unleash a blight-level destruction.
Luckily, they tend to be destroyed early on.


Connor is actually a bad example since he would have ran into the Darkspawn Horde before going further and that's even saying that its actions didn't unleash an even stronger fade demon that would try and overthrow him on principle. 

Also one needs to keep in mind that the only reason help didn't arrive was because others were tied up in a civil war or fighting the blight.


Well a more powerful spirit would have made a more   powerful abomination.  The fight between darkspawn horde and undead army would have been interesting.  

Also, Anders blew up a healthy portion of krkwall.  If he had taken his time, he could very well have blown up whole city.

#1637
leaguer of one

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wcholcombe wrote...

Anvos wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
But they are certanly closer to nukes than knives. A powerfull abomination can level an entire city.


A tad bit of exaggeration. Granted, I know they are very powerful, but do we actually have an example of an abomination in the lore that actually could pull that off?


Well, a sufficiently smart and powerfull one could. given time.

Take Connor for example - imagine if the Warded didn't stop him. Then Redcliffe would have fallen. The army of the abomination would have swelled in size. It would strike neighbouring villages, further growing it's ranks - capturing mages and forcefull possesing them (like Uldred).
So I'm not talking about instant destruction - like casting a lvl 999 fireball that destroys a city - rather a slower pace.
Corruption, drawing more and more demons and gaining strength.

If not stoped early on, an abomination has the potential to unleash a blight-level destruction.
Luckily, they tend to be destroyed early on.


Connor is actually a bad example since he would have ran into the Darkspawn Horde before going further and that's even saying that its actions didn't unleash an even stronger fade demon that would try and overthrow him on principle. 

Also one needs to keep in mind that the only reason help didn't arrive was because others were tied up in a civil war or fighting the blight.


Well a more powerful spirit would have made a more   powerful abomination.  The fight between darkspawn horde and undead army would have been interesting.  

Also, Anders blew up a healthy portion of krkwall.  If he had taken his time, he could very well have blown up whole city.

Ander's only blow up the chantry and it was with the use of alchemy. Anyone can learn to use alchemy.

#1638
General TSAR

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He blew up the Chantry by turning it into a frag grenade, guess where the shrapnel went.

Modifié par General TSAR, 23 février 2014 - 01:04 .


#1639
leaguer of one

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General TSAR wrote...

He blew up the Chantry by turning it into a frag grenade, guess where the pieces fell.

And it was not enough peices to greatly damage kirkwall. No were near half was effected.

#1640
General TSAR

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Doesn't explain the instantaneous fires or anything.

#1641
wcholcombe

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Where did I say half? I said a healthy portion. Blowing up the chantry is a healthy portion of Kirkwall.
And maybe I am mistaken, but I thought Anders combined magic and alchemy to blow up the chantry.

#1642
leaguer of one

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General TSAR wrote...

Doesn't explain the instantaneous fires or anything.

You mean something that can be caused by the infight with the templars and mages?

#1643
leaguer of one

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wcholcombe wrote...

Where did I say half? I said a healthy portion. Blowing up the chantry is a healthy portion of Kirkwall.
And maybe I am mistaken, but I thought Anders combined magic and alchemy to blow up the chantry.

It was not a heathy portion. And he used consentrated human urine and dragon droppings to make  the boom of the bomb.

#1644
wcholcombe

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Leaguer, are seriously arguing the fires around Kirkwall weren't caused by the ginormous explosion that obliterated one of the largest buildings in kirkwall?

#1645
General TSAR

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leaguer of one wrote...
You mean something that can be caused by the infight with the templars and mages?

And open infighting ONLY began when the Knight Commander declared the Right of Anullment 20 seconds AFTER the cutscene.

leaguer of one wrote...
It was not a heathy portion. And he used consentrated human urine and dragon droppings to make  the boom of the bomb.

It de-constructed the building and lifted it into the air with a bright RED light then sent the pieces flying, it was a magic bomb whether you like it or not. 

Modifié par General TSAR, 23 février 2014 - 01:16 .


#1646
durasteel

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Master Warder Z wrote...

ROFL.

Anders is certainly a decent stand in for CATS

Pity he didn't through in the HaHaHa though.

Thought about it, but I don't think Anders has much of a sense of humor by that point.

#1647
leaguer of one

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wcholcombe wrote...

Leaguer, are seriously arguing the fires around Kirkwall weren't caused by the ginormous explosion that obliterated one of the largest buildings in kirkwall?

I'm arguing it was not that much damage. Being that entire blocks were not lost, I don't see how it would be called a healthy portion of the city damaged by it.

#1648
durasteel

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General TSAR wrote...

He blew up the Chantry by turning it into a frag grenade, guess where the shrapnel went.

Based on the cinematic, it looks like it went straight up. I imagine it was raining gravel in Starkhaven.

#1649
Hellion Rex

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durasteel wrote...

General TSAR wrote...

He blew up the Chantry by turning it into a frag grenade, guess where the shrapnel went.

Based on the cinematic, it looks like it went straight up. I imagine it was raining gravel in Starkhaven.


Let's not forget the ginormous statues of Andraste outside the Chantry that fell down.

Modifié par eluvianix, 23 février 2014 - 01:21 .


#1650
durasteel

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wcholcombe wrote...

Where did I say half? I said a healthy portion. Blowing up the chantry is a healthy portion of Kirkwall.
And maybe I am mistaken, but I thought Anders combined magic and alchemy to blow up the chantry.

I don't know where I got this, but I thought he combined Qunari explosives with raw lyrium to make the bomb.

I might be confused and mixing in trivia from the crosscut drifter codexes.

Modifié par durasteel, 23 février 2014 - 01:23 .