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[renfrees]

On a subject of BM and particularly Merril - it freaked me out tbh, that you could tell Anders to GTFO after his possession, give away Isabela to Qunari, sell Fenris to Danarius, but you couldn't turn Merril in to the Templars, despite her being one of the least impactful companions. Even if you were RP-ing Templar spec.

 

We basically had prancing BM with demonic mirror in her house, contacting with demon and being in danger of possession and couldn't do anything about it until practically game over. Fair (FYI i have nothing against Merril as a character).

[Sir JK]

It actually wouldn't be that hard--In combat using BM creates the chance for the fade to be weakened and demons to if not possess the PC, possess innocents or your combatants.  If the a the BM PC is possessed that adds to the level of difficulty to fight them while fighting your original opponents.  This could be as simple as if you defeat them in combat they are unpossessed, or having to have the littany of andralla, or even going Wynne on them and defeating the demon in the fade.  As far as tempation your idea would work as long as there was some consequence for taking the easy route-like it cost you something, of course you could also set it up with a chance role where in combat you have a 25% chance of using the blood of your allies to power your spells rather than your enemies or something, or if you run out of mana you start syphoning off your allies life to power magic.  Of course you don't want this happening routinely or even a lot as it would become a pain than. There could even be skills in BM or a stat you invest points in that gives you more resistance to the tempations or whatever.

 

I think for temptations to work you actually do need it not to cost a lot most of the time, have some warnings along the way (like fainting after drawing too much power from yourself, hurting someone you care about or such) and then hitting a climax where you realise that the only way you'll ever have enough power for the spell you want to cast is to actually kill someone.

 

Basically to mimic how easy it is, until the cost becomes horrific.

 

As for demons in combat... Interesting idea. Essentially making BM high risk/high reward?

[wcholcombe]

By her own admission, Marethari knew relatively nothing about them in the Dalish Origin, and she doesn't think any research should be done on them in Dragon Age II. In contrast, Merrill extrapolated information from the shard and studied the lore on the Eluvian.

 

Clearly, Merrill put effort into understanding the Eluvians, while the Keeper gives absolutely no indication that she knows anything about them. Marethari makes it clear she doesn't think any study should be done on the Eluvians because the Keeper thinks their ancestors wanted them buried and forgotten, despite the fact that the Imperium managed to get a hold of them because the Arlathan elves were still using them before the fall of Arlathan.

 

You might be sick and tired of people pointing out the simple fact that Merrill put a lot of effort into understanding as much as she could about the Eluvians, but I'm not seeing why Merrill's painstaking research and study into the elven artifacts should be dismissed or diminished.

 

Merrill also stands out as a prime example of an independent mage who uses blood magic but isn't evil, which was a nice contrast to the multitude of criminally insane (and mindbogglingly stupid) mages who littered the narrative of Dragon Age II as hack and slash targets. I'm hoping for more three-dimensional mages and blood mages in Inquisition, who don't wear black hats and aren't one-dimensional evil villains.

The main issue with Merril is the same issue with the Mage V Templar conflict in DA2.  If you were given the ability to steer Merril away from the eluvian and the demon I think many who don't like her as currently written would be more fond of her.  Also, the who way they handled Marethari was clumsy.  They should have either clear cut shown Audacity coming trying to possess Merril through the Eluvian or come up with some more sensical way for Marethari to be possessed other than the clumsy way it was handled.  The keeper suddenly becoming the village idiot while Merril continues the BM/eluvian path on rails as straight as the Templar mage conflict is dissapointing.

[wcholcombe]

I think for temptations to work you actually do need it not to cost a lot most of the time, have some warnings along the way (like fainting after drawing too much power from yourself, hurting someone you care about or such) and then hitting a climax where you realise that the only way you'll ever have enough power for the spell you want to cast is to actually kill someone.

 

Basically to mimic how easy it is, until the cost becomes horrific.

 

As for demons in combat... Interesting idea. Essentially making BM high risk/high reward?

More or less.  I have always been of the opinion that while BM should be in some ways an op magical class, it should also have some serious risks involved in it.  Especially if you are willing to pursue it entirely in a maximum power type of spec.  Such as on the skill tree you have skills that allow you to resist the temptation better, resist demons, etc, but you also have the offensive skills and in order to totally max your offensive ability you can't take any of the resistance skills and thereby you become extremely powerful but are at a much greater risk/threat to yourself and others.  Imagine the risk reward that would be involved in having a party with multiple maximum offensive BMs, if things go badly in a battle you could get destroyed by your own allies, whereas as long as things go your way, there would be few encounters that could match you.  I also think BM should be a class that you have to discover either from an apostate or a demon.  Maybe you meet a demon early on who will do it for a price, but if you wait till later in the game you can learn it from someone else.

 

I don't see it happening though, just as I don't see some of the other lore aspects that might be inconvenient being used.  I mean seriously is it that hard to ask a mage to throw on a cloak or something to cover the fact that they are an apostate? 

[Master Warder Z_]

Why do people blame the chantry for the lyrium addiction of the Templars?  The templar order predates its association with the chantry as does their mage hunting duties.  I would venture to guess that the Templars were using lyrium to give them anti mage powers long before they were associated with the Chantry.

 

Also, as has been previously pointed out, just because you area  templar doesn't make you a lyrium fiend.  Dependent yes.  But just like a great many things that can be addictive in our society today, not everyone becomes an alcoholic who takes a drink of alcohol. People who drink a great deal of alcohol on occassion don't become alcoholics.  Some people who smoke or dip their entire lives are able to one day put it down and never touch tobacco again, while others can't.  The way people handle lyrium as templars will vary from templar to templar, and I really don't see someone in the Chantry telling Lord Seeker Lambert when and where he can have his lyrium.  Considering Templars are in charge of policing the lyrium trade/black market, it is entirely believable that the lyrium for templars is kept at the circle and rationed and administered by the templars.

 

I have stressed the Templar Lyrium connection several times, add that in with their rather large pockets and even outside of Chantry Finances i don't see them going with out their Lyrium. Too many connections, too much money and far to much motive to seize those assets during wartime.

[LobselVith8]

The main issue with Merril is the same issue with the Mage V Templar conflict in DA2.  If you were given the ability to steer Merril away from the eluvian and the demon I think many who don't like her as currently written would be more fond of her.  Also, the who way they handled Marethari was clumsy.  They should have either clear cut shown Audacity coming trying to possess Merril through the Eluvian or come up with some more sensical way for Marethari to be possessed other than the clumsy way it was handled.  The keeper suddenly becoming the village idiot while Merril continues the BM/eluvian path on rails as straight as the Templar mage conflict is dissapointing.

 

Why should Merrill have steered away from her convictions simply because the player said so? Hawke is ignorant of the Eluvians and elven culture; he's not in a position to tell Merrill that she's wrong to pursue her goal when he's a human who knows nothing about the Elvhen and she has put the time and effort into actually getting to understand the Eluvians from the shard and the lore she's obtained. I'm glad that the storyline didn't have her bending knee to Hawke's decree simply because he's a human (which is a trope I hate to see in fiction where humans are automatically right because the Plot Dictates).

 

I applaud Merrill's intellect, and her willingness to pursue a goal in thinking that highly advanced elven technology could benefit the People from the slow decline they have faced over the centuries (especially after everything they have lost to centuries of slavery and losing two homelands to humanity). I get that you're coming from this with a pro-templar perspective, but I don't think Merrill should have changed her mind simply because you disagreed with her.

 

As for Marethari, it always seemed to me that she fell prey to her pride and Audacity's manipulations. I saw it as an example of the dangers of magic, and trusting spirits. As Merrill points out: there's no such thing as a good spirit, since all spirits are dangerous.

[durasteel]

The lore of blood magic hasn't changed.  The problem is the implementation of blood magic in DAO and DA2 by pc characters has never truly reflected the danger/temptation that blood magic poses.  I am not saying BM has to be evil, but there are some risks to BM that gameplay does not represent that are shown in the lore and in the books.

 

But there are two bodies of lore regarding blood magic. There is a relatively small body of in-game fact about it, and rather a lot of in-game opinion. Most of what is said about blood magic is "the Chantry teaches" kind of lore, which can very possibly be substantially wrong.

 

As far as what we've seen of actual history (not what we've experienced as a character, but learned about NPCs) it seems that blood magic can be very dangerous when used recklessly or out of desperation, but it can also be used in relative safety with caution and control. Malcolm Hawke was able to use blood magic safely, and so apparently was Merrill, even off-camera. Morrigan was at the very least a blood magic dabler, and never had an issue with demons.

 

I think before you go calling for certain side effect to be shown for all usage of blood magic, you should first be sure that those effects apply necessarily, rather than just potentially in a "worst case" scenario.

[Sir JK]

As for Marethari, it always seemed to me that she fell prey to her pride and Audacity's manipulations. I saw it as an example of the dangers of magic, and trusting spirits. As Merrill points out: there's no such thing as a good spirit, since all spirits are dangerous.

 

Lobsel, while I don't quite agree with you in this issue I respect your opinion.
But I don't think that's the moral you want to attach to the rest of the post considering it's Merril that's dealing with the "spirit" and Marethari that adamantly refuses to.

[renfrees]

More or less.  I have always been of the opinion that while BM should be in some ways an op magical class, it should also have some serious risks involved in it.  Especially if you are willing to pursue it entirely in a maximum power type of spec.  Such as on the skill tree you have skills that allow you to resist the temptation better, resist demons, etc, but you also have the offensive skills and in order to totally max your offensive ability you can't take any of the resistance skills and thereby you become extremely powerful but are at a much greater risk/threat to yourself and others.  Imagine the risk reward that would be involved in having a party with multiple maximum offensive BMs, if things go badly in a battle you could get destroyed by your own allies, whereas as long as things go your way, there would be few encounters that could match you.  I also think BM should be a class that you have to discover either from an apostate or a demon.  Maybe you meet a demon early on who will do it for a price, but if you wait till later in the game you can learn it from someone else.

 

I don't see it happening though, just as I don't see some of the other lore aspects that might be inconvenient being used.  I mean seriously is it that hard to ask a mage to throw on a cloak or something to cover the fact that they are an apostate? 

Simple way to handle the danger of BM is to increase its cost, so the character can actually die from the bloodloss/be forced to use Sacrifice off cooldown/limit BM frequency usage. The other aspect is that Blood Slave was the crown of the skill tree, and while in theory (and based on codexes) it was justified, there were basically few valid targets for its use, as mobs died too quickly.

[The Baconer]

Game doesn't accent enough why magic and mages are feared in Thedas(...)

 

 

 

There are loads of examples of this across both games. Yes, there are characteristics inherent to blood magic that the PC doesn't experience, but so far no one has suggested a way of implementing this in a fashion that isn't weird or cumbersome.

[Hellion Rex]

Lobsel, while I don't quite agree with you in this issue I respect your opinion.
But I don't think that's the moral you want to attach to the rest of the post considering it's Merril that's dealing with the "spirit" and Marethari that adamantly refuses to.

Twas a bit of logic that kind of defeated itself.

[Master Warder Z_]

Why should Merrill have steered away from her convictions simply because the player said so? Hawke is ignorant of the Eluvians and elven culture; he's not in a position to tell Merrill that she's wrong to pursue her goal when he's a human who knows nothing about the Elvhen and she has put the time and effort into actually getting to understand the Eluvians from the shard and the lore she's obtained. I'm glad that the storyline didn't have her bending knee to Hawke's decree simply because he's a human (which is a trope I hate to see in fiction where humans are automatically right because the Plot Dictates).

 

I applaud Merrill's intellect, and her willingness to pursue a goal in thinking that highly advanced elven technology could benefit the People from the slow decline they have faced over the centuries (especially after everything they have lost to centuries of slavery and losing two homelands to humanity). I get that you're coming from this with a pro-templar perspective, but I don't think Merrill should have changed her mind simply because you disagreed with her.

 

As for Marethari, it always seemed to me that she fell prey to her pride and Audacity's manipulations. I saw it as an example of the dangers of magic, and trusting spirits. As Merrill points out: there's no such thing as a good spirit, since all spirits are dangerous.

 

Or she could have just been a stubborn idiot committing idiocy out of her own ignorance, pride and fear. Which seems far more likely to me; And considering Hawke a human went out of their way to befriend her, shelter her and give her purpose for near on a decade you figure she would be more grateful then to just offhandedly blow him off like their request was nothing.

 

Personally i think nothing of not helping her complete her idiocy.

 

Again i really think she has a reduced mental aptitude upon occasion.

[Hellion Rex]

At the end of the day, I think Audacity played everyone for the fool - Marethari for believing that she alone knew how to deal with the situation, and Merrill for thinking she was in the right for wanting to restore the mirror.

[wcholcombe]

But there are two bodies of lore regarding blood magic. There is a relatively small body of in-game fact about it, and rather a lot of in-game opinion. Most of what is said about blood magic is "the Chantry teaches" kind of lore, which can very possibly be substantially wrong.

 

As far as what we've seen of actual history (not what we've experienced as a character, but learned about NPCs) it seems that blood magic can be very dangerous when used recklessly or out of desperation, but it can also be used in relative safety with caution and control. Malcolm Hawke was able to use blood magic safely, and so apparently was Merrill, even off-camera. Morrigan was at the very least a blood magic dabler, and never had an issue with demons.

 

I think before you go calling for certain side effect to be shown for all usage of blood magic, you should first be sure that those effects apply necessarily, rather than just potentially in a "worst case" scenario.

In Asunder, when BM is used the Veil is weakend and demons start tempting Rhys and I am sure other mages.  Also, in WOT, which has been stated is factual or as other state Word of God, it states many of these risks associatated with BM.  As I said, BM isn't inherently evil, but the ingame portrayal of it by PCs and party members does not jive with lore and it is simply because of gameplay implementation.  BM has a risk and a potential cost to it, it also have the ability to be extremely powerful and allow a mage to do things that they can't do without huge amounts of lyrium.  I am simply saying that I feel BM from a gameplay perspective should be explored further and allowed the potential the class has.  Implemented in the right way it would even inolved a temptation to the player about how they actually want to play.

[LobselVith8]

Lobsel, while I don't quite agree with you in this issue I respect your opinion.
But I don't think that's the moral you want to attach to the rest of the post considering it's Merril that's dealing with the "spirit" and Marethari that adamantly refuses to.

 

I'd wager that Audacity was the source of Marethari's assumption that the restored Eluvian would be a gateway for escape, since Marethari's protests against Merrill's efforts were completely different in Acts I and II.

 

Also, Merrill learned blood magic from Audacity because she lacked the necessary amount of lyrium to cleanse the shard with ordinary magic; she was building the Eluvian from lore she gathered and information that she managed to obtain directly from the shard. Furthermore, Audacity is sundered from the Beyond (the Fade) and has been trapped in a totem by powerful magic since the fall of Arlathan; it is impotent to do anything other than communicate with others and send them images (which is stronger depending on the proximity one is to it's location). That is, until Marethari set it free. 

[wcholcombe]

At the end of the day, I think Audacity played everyone for the fool - Marethari for believing that she alone knew how to deal with the situation, and Merrill for thinking she was in the right for wanting to restore the mirror.

My main point on it was that the game didn't give the players enough info on what was going on to make the end result truly make sense.  It should have come off as a tragic moment, instead it comes off as a blame game because it doesn't feel like it was fully fleshed out/implemented.

[Hellion Rex]

In Asunder, when BM is used the Veil is weakend and demons start tempting Rhys and I am sure other mages.  Also, in WOT, which has been stated is factual or as other state Word of God, it states many of these risks associatated with BM.  As I said, BM isn't inherently evil, but the ingame portrayal of it by PCs and party members does not jive with lore and it is simply because of gameplay implementation.  BM has a risk and a potential cost to it, it also have the ability to be extremely powerful and allow a mage to do things that they can't do without huge amounts of lyrium.  I am simply saying that I feel BM from a gameplay perspective should be explored further and allowed the potential the class has.  Implemented in the right way it would even inolved a temptation to the player about how they actually want to play.

 

I'd wager that Audacity was the source of Marethari's assumption that the restored Eluvian would be a gateway for escape, since Marethari's protests against Merrill's efforts were completely different in Acts I and II.

 

Also, Merrill learned blood magic from Audacity because she lacked the necessary amount of lyrium to cleanse the shard with ordinary magic; she was building the Eluvian from lore she gathered and information that she managed to obtain directly from the shard. Furthermore, Audacity is sundered from the Beyond (the Fade) and has been trapped in a totem by powerful magic since the fall of Arlathan; it is impotent to do anything other than communicate with others and send them images (which is stronger depending on the proximity one is to it's location). That is, until Marethari set it free. 

I think Audacity played them both to be honest. Both were extremely proud, regardless of who was actually right or not.

[durasteel]

I don't remember anything in DA2 that proved Merrill wrong about her eluvian work. Marethari consistently voiced her fears, and Merrill consistently rebutted them. Marethari began fearing the taint in the shard, and when that was cleansed she began simply to fear the unknown. Ultimately Hawke can choose to believe whichever of them he wishes, but I found it impossible to be sympathetic to Marethari's neurotic paranoia. At the end, really, there is no logical justification for Marethari's actions--either she was seduced by Audacity, blinded by a combination of maternal feelings for Merrill and an almost total disregard for Merrill's abilities, or simply behaving in an irrational and foolish way. In any case, it is difficult to give her voice much authority on, well, anything.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'd wager that Audacity was the source of Marethari's assumption that the restored Eluvian would be a gateway for escape, since Marethari's protests against Merrill's efforts were completely different in Acts I and II.

 

Also, Merrill learned blood magic from Audacity because she lacked the necessary amount of lyrium to cleanse the shard with ordinary magic; she was building the Eluvian from lore she gathered and information that she managed to obtain directly from the shard. Furthermore, Audacity is sundered from the Beyond (the Fade) and has been trapped in a totem by powerful magic since the fall of Arlathan; it is impotent to do anything other than communicate with others and send them images (which is stronger depending on the proximity one is to it's location). That is, until Marethari set it free. 

 

It apparently isn't sundered enough to keep it from teaching forbidden magic 

[Master Warder Z_]

My main point on it was that the game didn't give the players enough info on what was going on to make the end result truly make sense.  It should have come off as a tragic moment, instead it comes off as a blame game because it doesn't feel like it was fully fleshed out/implemented.

 

This is true ._.

[Hellion Rex]

My main point on it was that the game didn't give the players enough info on what was going on to make the end result truly make sense.  It should have come off as a tragic moment, instead it comes off as a blame game because it doesn't feel like it was fully fleshed out/implemented.

How so? I disagree that it wasn't well explained. It did feel rather tragic to me, even more so after the Dalish chose to attack me for defending Merrill.

[wcholcombe]

I'd wager that Audacity was the source of Marethari's assumption that the restored Eluvian would be a gateway for escape, since Marethari's protests against Merrill's efforts were completely different in Acts I and II.

 

Also, Merrill learned blood magic from Audacity because she lacked the necessary amount of lyrium to cleanse the shard with ordinary magic; she was building the Eluvian from lore she gathered and information that she managed to obtain directly from the shard. Furthermore, Audacity is sundered from the Beyond (the Fade) and has been trapped in a totem by powerful magic since the fall of Arlathan; it is impotent to do anything other than communicate with others and send them images (which is stronger depending on the proximity one is to it's location). That is, until Marethari set it free. 

My question on this though has always been, was Audacity freed when Merril activated the Eluvian?  She couldn't make it work but could sense power in it. When she tried to communicate with Audacity she couldn't?

 

I don't know that may be inaccurate, I can't remember if Marethari says she freed Audacity or just let audacity possess her.... Again, that story line could have been so much better fleshed out in ways that could have made far more sense.

[AresKeith]

At the end of the day, I think Audacity played everyone for the fool - Marethari for believing that she alone knew how to deal with the situation, and Merrill for thinking she was in the right for wanting to restore the mirror.

 

^ This

[The Baconer]

In Asunder, when BM is used the Veil is weakend and demons start tempting Rhys and I am sure other mages.

 

Was that the battle during the conclave? There was no description of blood magic being used in that fight.

[Master Warder Z_]

How so? I disagree that it wasn't well explained. It did feel rather tragic to me, even more so after the Dalish chose to attack me for defending Merrill.

 

So despite the fact you have people arguing over trite details here based entirely upon personal perspective and speculation due to these lack of details you figure it was well explained?

 

Really?

 

And it was just another mob to kill to me; I don't mind killing Dalish Clans the less of those walking reminders of the past strutting around like elven hillbillies the better.