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Uneven Presentation of the mage-templar conflict


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#1901
Hellion Rex

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Not according to the developers. I know Gaider said a while back: "She just has the one shard. She incorporates it into the mirror she builds, extrapolating its construction both from the shard itself and what lore she's been able to collect. Probably why she wasn't able to get it to work."

I remember that quote. But what interests me is that Mike Laidlaw said that helping Merrill to fix the mirror was a "bad call". It might not have necessarily worked at the time, but the way Mike said that struck me as rather foreboding.



#1902
wcholcombe

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Marethari wanted to protect Merrill from Audacity, so she let Audacity loose from it's millennium-old prison, became possessed, and then tried to kill Merrill as an abomination.

 

You know, I see a small problem with this plan.

 

 

She might have believed that, but I see nothing to suggest that to be true. Even if you take her word for it, it seems to me that a much better idea would have been to take whatever she thought she knew about Audacity and its plans to Merrill and Hawke, be forthright and honest about it, and offer to help out.

 

Marethari's dishonest behavior toward and about Merrill is what lead to her demise.

 

 

And these are my point about why that whole quest doesn't make sense.  Either Marethari was right about the danger the eluvian presented to Merril of possession and thereby her actions make sense--but this is in no way indicated.

 

Or the wisest member of the clan becomes the village idiot and lets a demon possess her without taking any measures to allow for that or even protect merrill- I don't know have the clan kill her, have Merril and Hawke help her fight the demon, or anything at all that makes any kind of sense.



#1903
Master Warder Z_

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And yet... I only have one question about the whole thing...

 

If Audacity had no plan regarding Merrill and the Mirror... why did he teach her blood magic?

 

And questions of that sort of diminish the point of defending that blood mage.

 

She was corrupted by her own lust for knowledge and stupidity to realize she was traipsing about forces that ended far greater mages then herself.



#1904
LobselVith8

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And yet... I only have one question about the whole thing...

 

If Audacity had no plan regarding Merrill and the Mirror... why did he teach her blood magic?

 

Merrill couldn't cleanse the shard otherwise, since she lacked the lyrium necessary to cleanse the shard with ordinary magic; she shouldn't have been able to build her own Eluvian with a corrupted shard. I think Audacity's goal was Marethari all along. And considering what followed (because Merrill was able to remove the taint from the shard), it would seem that Audacity's gambit paid off.



#1905
EmperorSahlertz

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What lore would Merrill be able to colelct if NOT from the demon? She was not in contact with any other Dalish, and she certainly didn't ahve access to Circle libraries. She might have extrapolated the construction of the mirror itself from the shard, but the lore and the actual workings of the mirror can only have come from one place...



#1906
Hellion Rex

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And yet... I only have one question about the whole thing...

 

If Audacity had no plan regarding Merrill and the Mirror... why did he teach her blood magic?

He probably didn't ask anything of her to be honest. Audacity probably thought it could use teaching her blood magic as a way to ensnare her sooner or later.



#1907
Banxey

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And yet... I only have one question about the whole thing...

 

If Audacity had no plan regarding Merrill and the Mirror... why did he teach her blood magic?

I think because it knew she wouldn't be able to fix it, and would come back wanting more help. Which she did. 



#1908
Master Warder Z_

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Wasn't Merrill's only source of information on the Eluvian the demon? :huh:

 

Only known in game source and therefore the only source that's confirmed beyond speculation.

 

Good enough for me.



#1909
durasteel

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And yet... I only have one question about the whole thing...

 

If Audacity had no plan regarding Merrill and the Mirror... why did he teach her blood magic?

He's been in a statue, in a cave, for thousands of years. You might not have to look any further than simple boredom for a rationale. In any event, we weren't told.



#1910
Hellion Rex

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What lore would Merrill be able to colelct if NOT from the demon? She was not in contact with any other Dalish, and she certainly didn't ahve access to Circle libraries. She might have extrapolated the construction of the mirror itself from the shard, but the lore and the actual workings of the mirror can only have come from one place...

There is probably some very small lore that Dalish cling to, but even then Merrill was clearly fumbling in the dark.



#1911
Mihura

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I do not think that the Chantry and Templars are "the bad guys" per se, they are just really ineffective at controlling mages and that tends to lead to drastic consequences. The most crude example of that was shown at the final act of DA 2.

 

I think Elthina is a good example of that and how the system no longer works and if they do not adapt, it is probably going to be another Tevinter. But to adapt they have to let go of all the Chantry dogmas, to me DA 2 final is a good foreshadowing for the fall of the system altogether.  

 

Also I wrote a piece sometime ago about Elthina, one of my many favorite characters in DA 2. It basically explains a lot of this and why their stance does not work. It is under the spoiler tag if anyone is interested. 

 

Spoiler



#1912
Sir JK

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Merrill couldn't cleanse the shard otherwise, since she lacked the lyrium necessary to cleanse the shard with ordinary magic; she shouldn't have been able to build her own Eluvian with a corrupted shard. I think Audacity's goal was Marethari all along. And considering what followed (because Merrill was able to remove the taint from the shard), it would seem that Audacity's gambit paid off.

 

So... Audacity teaches Merril blood magic to cleanse a magical artifact he has no interest in and Merrill is absolutely convinced she can restore in order to manipulate the maternal instincts of Marethari?

 

Awfully convulated... isn't it?

 

For the record... I think both of them were the target. I think Merril was just as much in danger as Marethari was.

 

Both knows not to play the games of a Pride demon... and yet both of them does.



#1913
LobselVith8

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And yet she figured she could learn how the mirror could be completed from the demon there it's no more presumption then your own assumption she did entirely with out demonic aid. Especially considering her entire source on the matter was the demon in question.

 

Doesn't really negate the fact that trading fairs with one is stupid; Bound, Unbound a demon is a demon and the elves can candy coat that however they wish it doesn't make them get possessed with any less frequency.

 

Aa and i say she got lucky, i doubt she ever had any situation comparable to kirkwall, Elven Precedence worked in her favor in that regard, i have a feeling had she been caught preforming magic in public that tale would have a much different end and considering by the time Hawke Achieved the mantle of champion he could be shielding another mage, One nearly as corrupted and wicked as Merril herself.

 

Hawke had no taste in friends.

 

...Besides that Lanky Elf with dat voice @__@

 

Audacity said it was alive when the Eluvians were originally build by the Arlathan elves; it makes sense that when the Eluvian she created remained inert, that Merrill would try to see if Audacity could reveal something about it's construction that could aid her, since she was building the Eluvian from the lore she gathered and the information from the shard.

 

And I don't think it's luck that Marethari ended up freeing Audacity, followed by the abomination trying to kill Merrill.



#1914
durasteel

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As if Merrill would believe her

 

Merrill was just as stubborn as Marethari was

Merrill was shown to be cautious. Even if she didn't believe Marethari, she would have certainly had Hawke and perhaps even Marethari herself to help her when and if she finally activated the mirror, and Audacity would have been completely outmatched.

 

The only benefit to Audacity if Marethari was correct about his plans would have been freedom from the statue, which might have been its whole objective. Possession was perhaps an unexpected bonus.



#1915
Sir JK

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Audacity said it was alive when the Eluvians were originally build by the Arlathan elves; it makes sense that when the Eluvian she created remained inert, that Merrill would try to see if Audacity could reveal something about it's construction that could aid her, since she was building the Eluvian from the lore she gathered and the information from the shard.

 And who is the source of this again? ;)



#1916
LobselVith8

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What lore would Merrill be able to colelct if NOT from the demon? She was not in contact with any other Dalish, and she certainly didn't ahve access to Circle libraries. She might have extrapolated the construction of the mirror itself from the shard, but the lore and the actual workings of the mirror can only have come from one place...

 

The Dalish have tomes and books. It's why Morrigan sought out the Dalish when she wanted to activate the Eluvian in the Dragonbone Wastes; it's how Marethari was able to help Feynriel.



#1917
wcholcombe

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When Tevinter destroyed Arlathan and they took the Eluvians, there aparently wasn't any lore left to tell them how to use them for any purposes other than communicate.

 

Somehow I doubt a young Dalish elf has access to lore the Magister Lord conquerors of Arlathan didn't have.



#1918
EmperorSahlertz

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So... Audacity teaches Merril blood magic to cleanse a magical artifact he has no interest in and Merrill is absolutely convinced she can restore in order to manipulate the maternal instincts of Marethari?

 

Awfully convulated... isn't it?

 

For the record... I think both of them were the target. I think Merril was just as much in danger as Marethari was.

 

Both knows not to play the games of a Pride demon... and yet both of them does.

To be fair to Marethari she did her darnest to disuade Merrill and keep them both out of the game, but Merrill insisted on playing ball. Marethari being a sentimental old sod, had no other choice than to stick around in the hopes of protecting her beloved apprentice.



#1919
The Baconer

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I think Elthina is a good example of that and how the system no longer works and if they do not adapt, it is probably going to be another Tevinter.

 

 

Probably not. That would just be in poor form.



#1920
LobselVith8

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I remember that quote. But what interests me is that Mike Laidlaw said that helping Merrill to fix the mirror was a "bad call". It might not have necessarily worked at the time, but the way Mike said that struck me as rather foreboding.

 

Considering that Marethari became an abomination and the clan might try to kill her unless Hawke coddles them, it's safe to think it was a bad call. I'd also call Hawke going to Kirkwall a bad call, too.



#1921
Master Warder Z_

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Audacity said it was alive when the Eluvians were originally build by the Arlathan elves; it makes sense that when the Eluvian she created remained inert, that Merrill would try to see if Audacity could reveal something about it's construction that could aid her, since she was building the Eluvian from the lore she gathered and the information from the shard.

 

And I don't think it's luck that Marethari ended up freeing Audacity, followed by the abomination trying to kill Merrill.

 

And yet if confronted directly by the same aggressive Hawke you used in a prior example she admits she was constructing it from advice from guess what sealed spirit inside a totem in a cave on the top of a mountain?

 

There is nothing stated she magically acquired lore relating to an incredibly rare and stupid elven artifact only those wacko's in the imperium ever took interest in.

 

And i really don't care what the ultimate answer to the question of why is; Treating with demons is moronic.

 

That's the lesson here.



#1922
EmperorSahlertz

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The Dalish have tomes and books. It's why Morrigan sought out the Dalish when she wanted to activate the Eluvian in the Dragonbone Wastes; it's how Marethari was able to help Feynriel.

Indeed they do. So? Merrill was cast out, she did not have access to these tomes. So that is a no go. The ONLY source of knowledge that Merrill had access to, regarding the Eluvians, was Audacity. That is the long and short of it.



#1923
Gwydden

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Indeed they do. So? Merrill was cast out, she did not have access to these tomes. So that is a no go. The ONLY source of knowledge that Merrill had access to, regarding the Eluvians, was Audacity. That is the long and short of it.

And Audacity was trapped. What was it going to do, exactly?



#1924
LobselVith8

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So... Audacity teaches Merril blood magic to cleanse a magical artifact he has no interest in and Merrill is absolutely convinced she can restore in order to manipulate the maternal instincts of Marethari?

 

Awfully convulated... isn't it?

 

For the record... I think both of them were the target. I think Merril was just as much in danger as Marethari was.

 

Both knows not to play the games of a Pride demon... and yet both of them does.

 

Audacity taught Merrill blood magic, knowing that Merrill would pursue a path that Marethari was opposed to, and that Marethari would continually try to dissuade her surrogate daughter from pursuing it. As for a convoluted plot, I've read more complicated and machiavellian attempts in Shakespeare's Richard III.



#1925
Gwydden

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Audacity taught Merrill blood magic, knowing that Merrill would pursue a path that Marethari was opposed to, and that Marethari would continually try to dissuade her surrogate daughter from pursuing it. As for a convoluted plot, I've read more complicated and machiavellian attempts in Shakespeare's Richard III.

It is a bit of a Batman Gambit, yes. How does Audacity know Marethari so well to begin with?