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[Master Warder Z_]

My last word on Merril/Audacity/Marethari:

 

This quest should have been pretty easy to follow. The result should have been kind of an argument about risk reward/dealing with demons/blood magic/ends justify the means discussion.

 

But no, due to the clumsyness of the implementation of this quest we argue about stuff that should have been point blank clear and made perfect sense. Instead most of this quest makes about as much sense as me trying to play soccer with a rolling canon ball.

 

The whole merril quest comes off as meaningless and pointles and not worth pursuing because of the end result being entirely based on the stupidity of the character who should be the wisest one in the clan.  Either that or she was right about the demon using the eluvian but is never vindicated for it, which makes her just look STUPID.

 

Alright I am done, no more Merril posts.  Back to templars and mages.

 

In agreement with what was stated regarding the Merril/Keeper Argument and even more so with this senseless topic being abandoned finally by the thread.

[LobselVith8]

As i said she is ****** and demons proved that deal with demon is sufficient to end as abomnation many mages were stupid and even more smarter than her end that fare she couldn't fool dumb mercenaries in docks... for pride demon she is no match as proven before when she ended turning on you she would end as demon puppet again... marethari just saved her that fate as she took demon on her because she was attached to merril if not marethari merril ends as abomnation if not hawke she would start spread destruction as abomnation...

 

Audacity is sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem. I'm not seeing how the scenario with Merrill and Audacity is similar to a situation like Connor's, for example. Merrill learned blood magic and left Sundermount; Connor made a deal with a demon and lost control of his body.

 

Frankly, I'm not even certain there's much point to the representation of mages in Inquisition when there are people who are going to vilify free mages, no matter what's presented to them.

[The Elder King]

Lobsel, you know with who are you talking about, right? The one advocating for killing 99% of mages in DAI?

[TheKomandorShepard]

And the magisters of Old Tevinter had more power and dabbled in demonology far more often than the mages of modern Thedas. Yet the Tevinter Imperium crumbled because of external forces and the world hasn't been destroyed so far. How could it be so if as much as talking with a demon is enough to let it possess you? And I remind you, Audacity was TRAPPED. It couldn't do absolutely anything unless someone let him out. In this case, Marethari.

 

Magister those who are smart have probably not deal with demons only with blood magic and i can understand that but more dumb mages like merrill and uldred tend screwd by demons and fenris pretty clear stated that we have plenty abomnations in tevinter so we have so idiots like merrill in tevinter as well thats why templars are right about mages... 

 

And again doesn't matter he would tempt merril and he would end as abomnation pretty that meeting would go in that way

 

 

 

[The Elder King]

Magister those who are smart have probably not deal with demons only with blood magic and i can understand that but more dumb mages like merrill and uldred tend screwd by demons and fenris pretty clear stated that we have plenty abomnations in tevinter so we have so idiots like merrill in tevinter as well thats why templars are right about mages... 
 
And again doesn't matter he would tempt merril and he would end as abomnation pretty that meeting would go in that way

I doubt you'll find many magisters that don't dabble in demonology, considering the extreme competition in Tevinter.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Magister those who are smart have probably not deal with demons only with blood magic and i can understand that but more dumb mages like merrill and uldred tend screwd by demons and fenris pretty clear stated that we have plenty abomnations in tevinter so we have so idiots like merrill in tevinter as well thats why templars are right about mages... 

 

And again doesn't matter he would tempt merril and he would end as abomnation pretty that meeting would go in that way

 

So we have plenty of abominations running around in Tevinter, yet Tevinter still stands and is still one of the most powerful nations in Thedas. So much for "abominations will destroy the world".

[Master Warder Z_]

So we have plenty of abominations running around in Tevinter, yet Tevinter still stands and is still one of the most powerful nations in Thedas. So much for "abominations will destroy the world".

Since this finally went in a direction away from Merrill i will reply.

 

The Circles within the Imperium still suffer outbreaks of demonic possession, its why they still maintain both the rite of anullment and the Templar order within its borders.

 

And considering the nature of the subjects given interest in the Imperium its a surprise to basically even me that the Nation hasn't crumbled inward yet besides for one little detail about the Imperium. They all unite against a common enemy, Demons, Qunari, Armies of White Thedas, The Chantry. It doesn't matter. They insular when it comes to this in the extreme, anything that threatens the stability of the Imperium, its continuation is dealt with and in a brutal fashion. 

 

But make no mistake its a fading power, If it was still the superpower it once was it wouldn't be locked in a war with the Qunari over Sehron when it's armies once controlled 80% of the known world.

[wcholcombe]

See but here is what the pro mages miss in regarding Tevinter--There are still circles in Tevinter.  There are still Templars.  Lord Seeker Lambert was a Templar in Tevinter at one time.  Tevinter still has its checks and balances, not as many as I would prefer, but it isn't just mages being let run around willy nilly how they want to live.

[Mihura]

Probably not. That would just be in poor form.

 

Not really if you take Elthina as analogy for the rules and dogmas of the Chantry. Her neutrality is typical of them. Also the Red Templars and Inquisitors are the proof that the previous system ceased to exist and it is divided. The only question remaining is if this a desperate attempt to take sides, like a last breath or if this is really the next step to create a new type of Order. 

[durasteel]

@durasteel: Sorry, Do you expect she could've found materials about Eluvians in Kirkwall's black market :s? That seems very unlikely to me.

 

I recall a codex entry about the magic tomes available on Kirkwall's black market. I forget the details. Even if they were all Tevinter materials, there might have been descriptions of the mirrors and explanations of their activation as communication devices.

 

In Witch Hunt, we saw that the library at the Lake 'Cleanbad' circle had a book that was relevant, so who knows?

[LobselVith8]

>+> I agree it's off topic and pointless but Lob never really ceased talking about it if you follow the thread back a few pages.

 

As much as it clearly pains you, there were other people discussing Merrill, including when this thread was brought to this new forum.

 

As for the topic at hand, I'd love to see the myriad of fraternities fleshed out and explored. I'd enjoy seeing three-dimensional mages given depth and personality, with varying political views and stances on magic and the Circles. The mages of the now autonomous Circles, the hedge witches who have lived outside the Circles all their lives, the Dalish mages of the clans, the apostates of the Tal-Vasoth and Vasoth outside the communities of the Qun; there's a multitude of areas to explore in the landscape of the Mage-Templar War, and outside it.

 

I'd also like to see blood magic as a school of magic that isn't automatically vilified simply because the Chantry labels it as 'evil', or to see it turned into the 'dark side of the Force'. It's a grey area, and it should be treated as such.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Audacity is sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem. I'm not seeing how the scenario with Merrill and Audacity is similar to a situation like Connor's, for example. Merrill learned blood magic and left Sundermount; Connor made a deal with a demon and lost control of his body.

 

Frankly, I'm not even certain there's much point to the representation of mages in Inquisition when there are people who are going to vilify free mages, no matter what's presented to them.

 

Demons are known for being cunning , persuasive i would even mind-controling many ended screwd by dealing with demons well most ended that way another matter is that demon can read you and you can't so in such situation even clever peoples can end as victim if we assume that stupidity wasn't reason behind dealing with demon...

 

And yes i can see that going in that same way he would still tempt merril and someone weak and foolish as merril already proved to be susceptible...

 

And what is point of vilification of mages when there is no need to do that they spare me time and do it for me... and yes i doubt i would change mind because simple what reason i have to support mages who are walking disasters that mind of endless troubles...

 

 

Lobsel, you know with who are you talking about, right? The one advocating for killing 99% of mages in DAI?

 

And what is point? merrill is one of many reasons and examples why i want to do that and well i was proven right considering ending of that story...

 

 

I doubt you'll find many magisters that don't dabble in demonology, considering the extreme competition in Tevinter.

 

Well i guess you can be right considering that many mages we saw are just idiots but smarter magisters rather use blood magic then dealing with demons because blood magic gives you power not demon even morrigan knew that and didn't want deal with demon so i guess some of them can have that sane view on demons many not...

 

[wcholcombe]

As much as it clearly pains you, there were other people discussing Merrill, including when this thread was brought to this new forum.

 

As for the topic at hand, I'd love to see the myriad of fraternities fleshed out and explored. I'd enjoy seeing three-dimensional mages given depth and personality, with varying political views and stances on magic and the Circles. The mages of the now autonomous Circles, the hedge witches who have lived outside the Circles all their lives, the Dalish mages of the clans, the apostates of the Tal-Vasoth and Vasoth outside the communities of the Qun; there's a multitude of areas to explore in the landscape of the Mage-Templar War, and outside it.

 

I'd also like to see blood magic as a school of magic that isn't automatically vilified simply because the Chantry labels it as 'evil', or to see it turned into the 'dark side of the Force'. It's a grey area, and it should be treated as such.

Wow a post of lobs I can get behind!  I am all for 3 dimensional intelligent mages in the circle and out of it.  Would also be refershing to see 3 dimensional intelligent templars.

 

At the same time BM isn't necessarily evil, but there are risks associated with its use that have absolutely nothing to do with Chantry Dogma.  These risks need to be used and brought to bear on the PCs not just random NPCs who don't happen to have "world saving hero" as part of their class.

[Master Warder Z_]

See but here is what the pro mages miss in regarding Tevinter--There are still circles in Tevinter.  There are still Templars.  Lord Seeker Lambert was a Templar in Tevinter at one time.  Tevinter still has its checks and balances, not as many as I would prefer, but it isn't just mages being let run around willy nilly how they want to live.

 

Of course not, Even the Senate, The Archon likely realize that would result in the destruction of their society.

 

Even Mages to some extent realize the danger their kind represent to the world.

[The Elder King]

I recall a codex entry about the magic tomes available on Kirkwall's black market. I forget the details. Even if they were all Tevinter materials, there might have been descriptions of the mirrors and explanations of their activation as communication devices.
 
In Witch Hunt, we saw that the library at the Lake 'Cleanbad' circle had a book that was relevant, so who knows?

magical tomes are obviously available in the black market. Tomes about the Eluvians seems unlikely to me. We found the book in the dlc, as you said, in a Circle, not a random black market.
@Thekomandorshepard: my point is that Lobsel should expect to find mage bashing in your posts.

[durasteel]

Like yourself?

Name one.

[wcholcombe]

Actually a really cool templar to have in the party would be a Tevinter Templar.  But than again that might just result in the Pro Mage crowd being convinced even more that Tevinter and the Black Divine are the way to go.....

 

Still it would be one of the more interesting character possibilities, or it could come off as extremely boring.....

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Since this finally went in a direction away from Merrill i will reply.

 

The Circles within the Imperium still suffer outbreaks of demonic possession, its why they still maintain both the rite of anullment and the Templar order within its borders.

 

And considering the nature of the subjects given interest in the Imperium its a surprise to basically even me that the Nation hasn't crumbled inward yet besides for one little detail about the Imperium. They all unite against a common enemy, Demons, Qunari, Armies of White Thedas, The Chantry. It doesn't matter. They insular when it comes to this in the extreme, anything that threatens the stability of the Imperium, its continuation is dealt with and in a brutal fashion. 

 

But make no mistake its a fading power, If it was still the superpower it once was it wouldn't be locked in a war with the Qunari over Sehron when it's armies once controlled 80% of the known world.

I know that. However it is also no secret that the more powerful magisters like Danarius happen to have demons on their payroll as it were, like having things like Shades guard your mansion in Kirkwall for example. And since those magisters control the Imperial Chantry, they are in control of the Templars there so won't have them attack themselves. So those demons and abominations are allowed to survive, and yet the world hasn't been destroyed like some Anti-Mage people think it will be.

[The Baconer]

Not really if you take Elthina as analogy for the rules and dogmas of the Chantry. Her neutrality is typical of them. Also the Red Templars and Inquisitors are the proof that the previous system ceased to exist and it is divided. The only question remaining is if this a desperate attempt to take sides, like a last breath or if this is really the next step to create a new type of Order. 

 

While I initially misunderstood what you meant when you said "another Tevinter", I still think that won't be the case. We know that Tevinter is not sustainable, and the Seekers/Templars don't have the means to create or support something of that scope.

[Master Warder Z_]

As much as it clearly pains you, there were other people discussing Merrill, including when this thread was brought to this new forum.

 

As for the topic at hand, I'd love to see the myriad of fraternities fleshed out and explored. I'd enjoy seeing three-dimensional mages given depth and personality, with varying political views and stances on magic and the Circles. The mages of the now autonomous Circles, the hedge witches who have lived outside the Circles all their lives, the Dalish mages of the clans, the apostates of the Tal-Vasoth and Vasoth outside the communities of the Qun; there's a multitude of areas to explore in the landscape of the Mage-Templar War, and outside it.

 

I'd also like to see blood magic as a school of magic that isn't automatically vilified simply because the Chantry labels it as 'evil', or to see it turned into the 'dark side of the Force'. It's a grey area, and it should be treated as such.

 

 

It was a relatively absent topic until your introduction Lob, recall i was here from near on the beginning of the thread. if not actively posting then observing. But i am pleased it's finally ended and so i can let it go.

 

I agree i would like to see the structuring of the Mages explored in DAI but that said i have a feeling their camps have remained much the same as they were Pre-War in fact i'd consider it likely that the majority of the Loyalists simply ignored the disolving of the Circles via the "Grand Enchanter" and returned to where they believe they belong, It's part of the conflicting ideologies of the mages that i always found interesting. How some can accept their needed place in society and yet others will fight against reality with all of their being. But that's where it ends, I have never had a favorable view of Apostates or the Dalish mages but considering they often destroy themselves as often as they wreak havoc i truely only concern myself when they become abominations and threaten the communities they linger near.

 

I'd also like to see the newly released Templar order explored in the same light, their positions, restructuring, views, Their extremists, Moderates and all of the above deciding how the order should be used in the future given that it is now for the first time in a thousand years free to act upon their original mandate.

 

it's not a gray area to me and it should be treated as it currently is in Thedas if not worse. Notable exceptions should be the Gray Wardens, Their mages risking corruption and possession in combating the forces seeking to end Humanity is a laudable feat not something to condemn them for. They are actually Hero's.

[LobselVith8]

Actually a really cool templar to have in the party would be a Tevinter Templar.  But than again that might just result in the Pro Mage crowd being convinced even more that Tevinter and the Black Divine are the way to go.....

 

Still it would be one of the more interesting character possibilities, or it could come off as extremely boring.....

 

I don't think many in either group (who agree with the mage or templar arguments) are going to be dissuaded simply because of a particular character, although I doubt many pro-mages think that Tevinter should be emulated.

 

I suspect that Cullen might be a likely templar companion in Inquisition. A Tevinter templar wouldn't have the same capabilties against mages that a templar from the Andrastian kingdoms would (since they are basically soldiers).

[Master Warder Z_]

I know that. However it is also no secret that the more powerful magisters like Danarius happen to have demons on their payroll as it were, like having things like Shades guard your mansion in Kirkwall for example. And since those magisters control the Imperial Chantry, they are in control of the Templars there so won't have them attack themselves. So those demons and abominations are allowed to survive, and yet the world hasn't been destroyed like some Anti-Mage people think it will be.

 

Erm Fenris stated point blank he had seen/heard of uses of the rite within the Imperium as he put "The line is in a different place but it is there" And Demonolgy is a debatable school given it's utter condemnation outside of Tveinter but i must admit that you do have Mages within Tveinter capable of sundering the veil and calling forth spirits to obey them if they are strong enough of will to command them.

 

So those Abominations as you put it would be obliterated the moment they became a threat to the Imperium which would be relatively quick considering rogue demons are a matter of state security.

[wcholcombe]

I know that. However it is also no secret that the more powerful magisters like Danarius happen to have demons on their payroll as it were, like having things like Shades guard your mansion in Kirkwall for example. And since those magisters control the Imperial Chantry, they are in control of the Templars there so won't have them attack themselves. So those demons and abominations are allowed to survive, and yet the world hasn't been destroyed like some Anti-Mage people think it will be.

 

IN what world do you think an abomination is allowed to survive in Tevinter?  Magisters are extremely competitive and easily threatened by another's power.  They outright kill each other in magical duels and contests and showing off.  No Magister lord worth his salt would allow the survival of an Abomination if for no other reason then the threat said abomination would pose to his own standing and power base.  Again, just because Mages enjoy a different position in Tevinter doesn't mean they aren't policed.  yes the Templar's are reigned in significantly, especially in regard to treatment of mages in circles, but considering blood magic isn't openly practiced in Tevinter-WoT- and the fact that circle membership is required, I would believe known malificarum and apostates are still hunted.  Granted if the Malificarum happens to be the black devine exceptions will be made.  But still.

[Master Warder Z_]

Name one.

 

The Very post you were quoting when i stated that? 

[TheKomandorShepard]

I know that. However it is also no secret that the more powerful magisters like Danarius happen to have demons on their payroll as it were, like having things like Shades guard your mansion in Kirkwall for example. And since those magisters control the Imperial Chantry, they are in control of the Templars there so won't have them attack themselves. So those demons and abominations are allowed to survive, and yet the world hasn't been destroyed like some Anti-Mage people think it will be.

 

What a naive mindset do you rly think that magisters care about other mages because they are mages it is like saying that human noble will care about another human noble... i can see rather magisters as self-centred and self-serving rather than being pro-mage and i doubt that guys would have problems with kiling mage or non-mage for own benefit... 

 

I can see them hunting abomnations and even weak mages ruthlessly just for own safety... so thats probably reason why world is whole...