8640 réponses à ce sujet

[wcholcombe]

The mages-fiona and adriane and their ilk, wanted freedom for mages irregardless of what it cost.  The second Lambert marched into that conclave and attacked the Grand Enchanters of each of the Circles of Thedas the gig was up.  The other cicles would have left/rebelled.

 

Lambert was played by fiona and Adriane. If not he wouldn't have demanded the arrest of Rhys. That was the issue.  So what if Fiona had her vote.  It would have meant nothing.  If the conclave had their vote, the resolution passed, it would have meant nothing.  The templars and the Chantry wouldn't have just let the mages leave.  And no one would have cared that they voted for it.  They are mages, the majority of the non mages of thedas and even a good majority of the circle mages weren't going to take umbrage that the mages rights were ignored.  The conclave has no authority to make the mages free.

 

The point was that Fiona and Adriane got the Lord Seeker of the Templar order to publicly attack Grand Enchanters for no reason.  Not blood magic, not apostates, not malificarum, not some hedge wizard in the woods somewhere, the preeminent members of the Circles.  He showed hubris, pride, and stupidity.  It was personally dissappointing for Lambert with the way he had previously been written.Just not as stupid as Fiona and Adriane for acting like spoiled children when they knew they had an ally in the Divine.  Time was on the Mages side and they were too stupid to see it.

[leaguer of one]

There are threads and threads to debate that point with you; And considering you might as well have the entire mage rebellion turn into a massive swarm of abominations at any moment...You better hope the Templars don't run out of Lyrium eh?

 

Thedas might be in trouble then.

Sure, because mages just turn into abomination at a drop of a hat just because... Even though they don't.  If it was a case that the majority of mages are endanger of becoming abominations, the majority would of been turned why before their harrowing.

 

Thedus is in no danger with mages. The templar are in more trouble being that they bit the hand that feeds them.

[Xilizhra]

There is nothing to indicate the red templars are the majority; that was an early day assumption that has all but been quashed by the developers which have repeatedly stated the Templar order will be a faction in the game which negates the whole "they are all insane on corrupted lyrium"

Hence why "many" was also a possibility in my previous post.

 

Won't debate Lambert's fate given a single sentence writing him off in WOT hardly confirms anything beyond what is believed by the masses, they also thought King Maric was dead didn't they?

He was pinned and about to have his throat slashed by Cole. It didn't strike me as terribly ambiguous.

 

It's the PC's decision likely who ultimately wins anything, i am just pointing out the obvious advantage that a bunch of well armed, well equipped and funded warriors with magic negating abilities have over mages that until a while ago had never had cause to become an army.

I'm effectively certain that they won't win.

 

The point was that Fiona and Adriane got the Lord Seeker of the Templar order to publicly attack Grand Enchanters for no reason.  Not blood magic, not apostates, not malificarum, not some hedge wizard in the woods somewhere, the preeminent members of the Circles.  He showed hubris, pride, and stupidity.  It was personally dissappointing for Lambert with the way he had previously been written.Just not as stupid as Fiona and Adriane for acting like spoiled children when they knew they had an ally in the Divine.  Time was on the Mages side and they were too stupid to see it.

Justinia was too weak to rein the templars in, as ever. The mages had to get out right then, and Justinia apparently decided they were in the right... so, it seems quite possible that the Chantry, if it's even surviving, will be willing to back the mages over the templars if it comes down to it.

[wcholcombe]

First of all Fiona got nothing. As abrasive as she was she clearly wanted to debate the issue of freeing the mages peacefully. Adrian is who played Lambert with his own nature. He is still a sap and wrong for falling for it.

Actually no, Adrianne is acting on Fiona's behalf. Fiona knew she needed Wynne to support indipendence or it wouldn't pass again. Adrian went to Rhys on Fiona's behalf to convince Wynne, when they found out that wouldn't happen, they moved on to the second option.

[Master Warder Z_]

The mages-fiona and adriane and their ilk, wanted freedom for mages irregardless of what it cost.  The second Lambert marched into that conclave and attacked the Grand Enchanters of each of the Circles of Thedas the gig was up.  The other cicles would have left/rebelled.

 

Lambert was played by fiona and Adriane. If not he wouldn't have demanded the arrest of Rhys. That was the issue.  So what if Fiona had her vote.  It would have meant nothing.  If the conclave had their vote, the resolution passed, it would have meant nothing.  The templars and the Chantry wouldn't have just let the mages leave.  And no one would have cared that they voted for it.  They are mages, the majority of the non mages of thedas and even a good majority of the circle mages weren't going to take umbrage that the mages rights were ignored.  The conclave has no authority to make the mages free.

 

The point was that Fiona and Adriane got the Lord Seeker of the Templar order to publicly attack Grand Enchanters for no reason.  Not blood magic, not apostates, not malificarum, not some hedge wizard in the woods somewhere, the preeminent members of the Circles.  He showed hubris, pride, and stupidity.  It was personally dissappointing for Lambert with the way he had previously been written.Just not as stupid as Fiona and Adriane for acting like spoiled children when they knew they had an ally in the Divine.  Time was on the Mages side and they were too stupid to see it.

 

Rhys was suspected as succumbing to a demon, finding a murder weapon in his quarters when the White Spire was haunted by such spree's for quite a while it was the only outcome to that. And there was justifiable reason, the Conclave was refusing to hand over the Mage in question who was at the center of the entire series of events, What was Lambert to do? Pretend that the evidence didn't magically appear in front of him? That all the signs didn't point to that mage? The situation was, what it was by that point.

 

Don't deny what occurred wasn't the act of a proud man, i just also point out it was the only reaction that a Templar could give even a moderate given the circumstances.

 

Lambert acting as he should have in the situation; Wasn't out of Character in my opinion just the opposite to me.

 

It actually showed the resolve of him to take matters beyond his station if the need arose to do so; To actually challenge the worthiness of the Divine, the Chantry and call them out on this stance that the head of Thedosian religion was giving, to allow a conclave in the first place on a subject that should have been buried along with every who happened to know about it.

[leaguer of one]

The mages-fiona and adriane and their ilk, wanted freedom for mages irregardless of what it cost.  The second Lambert marched into that conclave and attacked the Grand Enchanters of each of the Circles of Thedas the gig was up.  The other cicles would have left/rebelled.

 

Lambert was played by fiona and Adriane. If not he wouldn't have demanded the arrest of Rhys. That was the issue.  So what if Fiona had her vote.  It would have meant nothing.  If the conclave had their vote, the resolution passed, it would have meant nothing.  The templars and the Chantry wouldn't have just let the mages leave.  And no one would have cared that they voted for it.  They are mages, the majority of the non mages of thedas and even a good majority of the circle mages weren't going to take umbrage that the mages rights were ignored.  The conclave has no authority to make the mages free.

 

The point was that Fiona and Adriane got the Lord Seeker of the Templar order to publicly attack Grand Enchanters for no reason.  Not blood magic, not apostates, not malificarum, not some hedge wizard in the woods somewhere, the preeminent members of the Circles.  He showed hubris, pride, and stupidity.  It was personally dissappointing for Lambert with the way he had previously been written.Just not as stupid as Fiona and Adriane for acting like spoiled children when they knew they had an ally in the Divine.  Time was on the Mages side and they were too stupid to see it.

Again, Why are you bring up Fiana in this? Wanting to peacefully debate the issue of mage freedom mean wanting to do what ever it take the have mage freedom? That is so dangerous to want to debate it?

 

The places that have thinking like that are normally communist states and dictatorships.

 

The only "mage rebel" to blame is Adrian.

[The Baconer]

Won't debate Lambert's fate given a single sentence writing him off in WOT hardly confirms anything beyond what is believed by the masses, they also thought King Maric was dead didn't they?

 

PC: Lambert!? You're alive?

 

L: Sugar.

 

PC: What?

 

L: Give me sugar. In water.

[Master Warder Z_]

Sure, because mages just turn into abomination at a drop of a hat just because... Even though they don't.  If it was a case that the majority of mages are endanger of becoming abominations, the majority would of been turned why before their harrowing.

 

Thedus is in no danger with mages. The templar are in more trouble being that they bit the hand that feeds them.

 

Did you serious just misspell Thedas?

 

._. I mean like forget the debate for a moment; how can you misspell the very continent where DA takes place when you are debating that very subject?

 

And Mages do turn into abominations at the drop of a hat; DA 2 proved that many times  

[leaguer of one]

Actually no, Adrianne is acting on Fiona's behalf. Fiona knew she needed Wynne to support indipendence or it wouldn't pass again. Adrian went to Rhys on Fiona's behalf to convince Wynne, when they found out that wouldn't happen, they moved on to the second option.

BS, nothing in the book even remotely support your claim. She was in the dark on it like most of the mages in that event. If you're going to say Fioana is at fault for the action the a few did with out her concept, prove it   with fact not speculations.

[wcholcombe]

I wouldn't consider it in that light personally given that it also served as the Catalyst needed to unite the order under its original banner for the first time in what? 1200 years or so? The Knight Commanders or their replacements were behind Lambert; Their men were behind Lambert, The order in probably damn near its entirety is marching to war for one flag or another.

 

Fiona finally got her treasonous little vote but i wouldn't declare it a victory just yet

 

There are still the thousands upon thousands of templars about to kick down her door after all.

 

And in my opinion it wasn't the Mages playing the Lord Seeker, it was the Mages playing the Divine.

Actually considering Lambert didn't exactly see it as a given that all 15 KC would support him I wouldn't necessarily go that far. Plus, when you consider that the Templars tend to promote those of a more hard line view recently to positions of leadership as shown in Asunder and DA2, the support of the leadership of the Templars is hardly an indicaiton that most Templars followed the call.

 

In addition, if you throw in the fact most espoused by mage supporters that the Templars recruit from those most "faithful to andraste and the chantry" I can see room for a very large contingent of the Templars to say that my duty is to the Chantry and the Devine, not to a Lord Seeker.  Especially when you consider that most Templars despise the Seekers of Truth.

[Master Warder Z_]

PC: Lambert!? You're alive?

 

L: Sugar.

 

PC: What?

 

L: Give me sugar. In water.

 

 

Unfortunately i can see that occurring.

 

It's more likely then him simply just falling off the map due to a few of the theories i came up with.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

@leaguer:

They bring her into it because to them every single mage is an evil, conniving monster for wanting freedom.

[leaguer of one]

Did you serious just misspell Thedas?

 

._. I mean like forget the debate for a moment; how can you misspell the very continent where DA takes place when you are debating that very subject?

 

And Mages do turn into abominations at the drop of a hat; DA 2 proved that many times

DA2 prove that if stress, very powerful, in area's were the veil is thin, and in a city  design to thin the veil.... Some mages will turn into an abomination at drop of a hat...Key note: Some.

[wcholcombe]

Sure, because mages just turn into abomination at a drop of a hat just because... Even though they don't.  If it was a case that the majority of mages are endanger of becoming abominations, the majority would of been turned why before their harrowing.

 

Thedus is in no danger with mages. The templar are in more trouble being that they bit the hand that feeds them.

The templars are the ones who police and monitor the Lyrium Trade.  Trust me, I am fairly certain they still control it considering the templar leadership supported Lambert.

[wcholcombe]

DA2 prove that if stress, very powerful, in area's were the veil is thin, and in a city  design to thin the veil.... Some mages will turn into an abomination at drop of a hat...Key note: Some.

 

 

From WoT--In the section regarding the First Inquisition--I quote- "People blamed magic for the death of Andrast, the blight, the terrot the saw every day-and not without basis.  Abominations and demons rampaged the countryside.  No one was safe."

 

So again we have pro mages under valuing the actual danger presented by risk of abominations as being small.  Hint hint, it isn't, prior to the creation of the Chantry's Templars and circles-- abominations rampaged.

[Master Warder Z_]

Actually considering Lambert didn't exactly see it as a given that all 15 KC would support him I wouldn't necessarily go that far. Plus, when you consider that the Templars tend to promote those of a more hard line view recently to positions of leadership as shown in Asunder and DA2, the support of the leadership of the Templars is hardly an indicaiton that most Templars followed the call.

 

In addition, if you throw in the fact most espoused by mage supporters that the Templars recruit from those most "faithful to andraste and the chantry" I can see room for a very large contingent of the Templars to say that my duty is to the Chantry and the Devine, not to a Lord Seeker.  Especially when you consider that most Templars despise the Seekers of Truth.

 

Aa i have given that matter thought, But Lambert had assembled all fifteen to him and from their reactions they all supported him in the immediate aftermath of the dissolution of the circle system, All heeded his summons. He further went on to support that if any had private misgivings or merciful tendencies to mages they would be replaced.

 

Hence why i said the Knight Captains or their Replacements, Your not forgetting your dealing with the effective head of the Templars correct? The head of their organization tendered their resignation from the Chantry after all, While i have not concluded with out a doubt that all or near all Templars left Chantry service, considering all the Knight commanders for one reason or another will be on board with this Crusade i can see a great majority following their immediate leaders who are following the acting head of their order.

 

However that focus, the lode stone so to speak of their movement disappearing may take the steam out of some of their boilers; With Lambert's disapearence so soon after his rallying call, I'd suspect the majority of the hardliner old guard to remain and continue their purpose, those however following for the "duty" of it likely would return to the chantry, but i'd also point out this. You have dedication to the Chantry, Yes but you also have vilification of magic and Lambert's plea included that, he basically slapped his resignation stating that she was unworthy to sit on that seat. and he was planning to renegotiate with the Chantry once a more like minded divine was selected.

 

Personally i see the chance of having many within the Chantries own echelons agreeing with Lambert given that religious schism supposedly had followed after the Templars departed, with the Chantry fighting amongst it self, whom are the individual templars to believe? A devout Adrastian or a Sacrilegious Divine? It's a matter of perspective i suppose just how effect those arguments could be its, just when the Chantry ceases to be one voice and instead becomes two or more, its message might change from adherent to adherent.

[leaguer of one]

The templars are the ones who police and monitor the Lyrium Trade.  Trust me, I am fairly certain they still control it considering the templar leadership supported Lambert.

And not every templar supports Lambert.*Looks at Cassanadra"

 

On point, for the templars to even have a blip on the Lyrium market they need money...Which the chantry has in majority. The chantry can easily monopolize lyrium by just buy up the majority of it and out bidding the rogue templars from all the lyrium sellers and smugglers.

 

So just making sure there is no wind for the templar sail boat sail with is enough to end the templars.

[wcholcombe]

Again, Why are you bring up Fiana in this? Wanting to peacefully debate the issue of mage freedom mean wanting to do what ever it take the have mage freedom? That is so dangerous to want to debate it?

 

The places that have thinking like that are normally communist states and dictatorships.

 

The only "mage rebel" to blame is Adrian.

I responded to that question when I posted this:

 

Actually no, Adrianne is acting on Fiona's behalf. Fiona knew she needed Wynne to support indipendence or it wouldn't pass again. Adrian went to Rhys on Fiona's behalf to convince Wynne, when they found out that wouldn't happen, they moved on to the second option.

 

Also in addition-Fiona was a rebel because the mages agreed to the limit of the conclave being the discussion of the findings on Tranquility.  Fiona rebeled the second she didn't abide by that agreement.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Aa i have given that matter thought, But Lambert had assembled all fifteen to him and from their reactions they all supported him in the immediate aftermath of the dissolution of the circle system, All heeded his summons. He further went on to support that if any had private misgivings or merciful tendencies to mages they would be replaced.

 

Hence why i said the Knight Captains or their Replacements, Your not forgetting your dealing with the effective head of the Templars correct? The head of their organization tendered their resignation from the Chantry after all, While i have not concluded with out a doubt that all or near all Templars left Chantry service, considering all the Knight commanders for one reason or another will be on board with this Crusade i can see a great majority following their immediate leaders who are following the acting head of their order.

 

However that focus, the lode stone so to speak of their movement disappearing may take the steam out of some of their boilers; With Lambert's disapearence so soon after his rallying call, I'd suspect the majority of the hardliner old guard to remain and continue their purpose, those however following for the "duty" of it likely would return to the chantry, but i'd also point out this. You have dedication to the Chantry, Yes but you also have vilification of magic and Lambert's plea included that, he basically slapped his resignation stating that she was unworthy to sit on that seat. and he was planning to renegotiate with the Chantry once a more like minded divine was selected.

 

Personally i see the chance of having many within the Chantries own echelons agreeing with Lambert given that religious schism supposedly had followed after the Templars departed, with the Chantry fighting amongst it self, whom are the individual templars to believe? A devout Adrastian or a Sacrilegious Divine? It's a matter of perspective i suppose just how effect those arguments could be its, just when the Chantry ceases to be one voice and instead becomes two or more, its message might change from adherent to adherent.

Lambert is not in charge of the Templars but the Seekers, so he shouldn't have that authority.

 

So he'd only negotiate with people who believe what he does? Yeah, that's constructive.

[leaguer of one]

From WoT--In the section regarding the First Inquisition--I quote- "People blamed magic for the death of Andrast, the blight, the terrot the saw every day-and not without basis.  Abominations and demons rampaged the countryside.  No one was safe."

 

So again we have pro mages under valuing the actual danger presented by risk of abominations as being small.  Hint hint, it isn't, prior to the creation of the Chantry's Templars and circles-- abominations rampaged.

That has no basis on the issue if mages are in danger of becoming abomination. That just means the common man would have a fear of it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I responded to that question when I posted this:

 

Actually no, Adrianne is acting on Fiona's behalf. Fiona knew she needed Wynne to support indipendence or it wouldn't pass again. Adrian went to Rhys on Fiona's behalf to convince Wynne, when they found out that wouldn't happen, they moved on to the second option.

 

Also in addition-Fiona was a rebel because the mages agreed to the limit of the conclave being the discussion of the findings on Tranquility.  Fiona rebeled the second she didn't abide by that agreement.

Unless you can show me Fiona telling Adrian to do what she did, Adrian acted on her own.

[LobselVith8]

From WoT--In the section regarding the First Inquisition--I quote- "People blamed magic for the death of Andrast, the blight, the terrot the saw every day-and not without basis.  Abominations and demons rampaged the countryside.  No one was safe."

 

So again we have pro mages under valuing the actual danger presented by risk of abominations as being small.  Hint hint, it isn't, prior to the creation of the Chantry's Templars and circles-- abominations rampaged.

 

I don't think many dismiss the fact that magic is dangerous, and that mages need to be instructed on how to handle magic properly. The main argument is against the Chantry controlled Circles, against the Order of Templars having dominion over mages in the name of religion, and against what the Andrastian faith preaches about mages and magic. Just because mages need to be taught how to properly use their powers doesn't mean that the Chantry or the templars should be the ones who have absolute authority over them.

[leaguer of one]

I responded to that question when I posted this:

 

Actually no, Adrianne is acting on Fiona's behalf. Fiona knew she needed Wynne to support indipendence or it wouldn't pass again. Adrian went to Rhys on Fiona's behalf to convince Wynne, when they found out that wouldn't happen, they moved on to the second option.

 

Also in addition-Fiona was a rebel because the mages agreed to the limit of the conclave being the discussion of the findings on Tranquility.  Fiona rebeled the second she didn't abide by that agreement.

1. Proof the Adrian is acting on Fiona's behalf, please. No baseless speculation. Real proof.

2. Can't blame her for what others do without consulting her.

3. Them taking about it does not make them rebels about to over turn the chantry, especially when they are doing it peacefully.

 

Sorry, but Labert attacking them was the thing that truly made them rebel. Not Fiona peacefully debating that mages should be free.

[Master Warder Z_]

Lambert is not in charge of the Templars but the Seekers, so he shouldn't have that authority.

 

So he'd only negotiate with people who believe what he does? Yeah, that's constructive.

 

Ah my dear you need to purpose a copy of WOT best volume you can have for debates on BSN...or Bioware forums i guess now

 

Anywho.

 

The Templar Order was constructed by the former original Inquisition to be the policing body of the circle system, you likely know this yes? The Seekers of Truth were constructed at the same time also by the Inquisition, only difference? The rank and file made up the Templars and their Officers made up the Seekers. Hence why exceptional templars become Seekers to this day. Only rarely does a non templar become a seeker.

 

Point of it being, The Seekers have command of the Templars, Hence why Lambert could dismiss a Knight Commander with a single letter and assume his post at the White Spire.

[wcholcombe]

Aa i have given that matter thought, But Lambert had assembled all fifteen to him and from their reactions they all supported him in the immediate aftermath of the dissolution of the circle system, All heeded his summons. He further went on to support that if any had private misgivings or merciful tendencies to mages they would be replaced.

 

Hence why i said the Knight Captains or their Replacements, Your not forgetting your dealing with the effective head of the Templars correct? The head of their organization tendered their resignation from the Chantry after all, While i have not concluded with out a doubt that all or near all Templars left Chantry service, considering all the Knight commanders for one reason or another will be on board with this Crusade i can see a great majority following their immediate leaders who are following the acting head of their order.

 

However that focus, the lode stone so to speak of their movement disappearing may take the steam out of some of their boilers; With Lambert's disapearence so soon after his rallying call, I'd suspect the majority of the hardliner old guard to remain and continue their purpose, those however following for the "duty" of it likely would return to the chantry, but i'd also point out this. You have dedication to the Chantry, Yes but you also have vilification of magic and Lambert's plea included that, he basically slapped his resignation stating that she was unworthy to sit on that seat. and he was planning to renegotiate with the Chantry once a more like minded divine was selected.

 

Personally i see the chance of having many within the Chantries own echelons agreeing with Lambert given that religious schism supposedly had followed after the Templars departed, with the Chantry fighting amongst it self, whom are the individual templars to believe? A devout Adrastian or a Sacrilegious Divine? It's a matter of perspective i suppose just how effect those arguments could be its, just when the Chantry ceases to be one voice and instead becomes two or more, its message might change from adherent to adherent.

I haven't seen anything saying there is a split in the Chantry.  WoT says allegiances between templars and seekers is split with some still supoorting the divine, but I see nothing of a split in the Chantry.  Some of the Grand Clerics may see Justina as vulnerable, but the rank and file of the Chantry will still view her as a living representative of Andraste, you may have some who are more hardline about anti magic than they actually are about Andraste, but the only issues she will face will be from the Grand Clerics who seek to replace her, in that regard I would advise them to be very careful, Justina actually scares me in some regards.

 

As for his resignation, I just looked at the page in Asunder, while he does deride the Divine, he says nothing about renegotiating with the Chantry if she is replaced.

 

Again I feel the majority of the Templars would follow him, but I would hardly feel that the Chantry is stripped of Templars.