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[EmperorSahlertz]

On the darkspawn, just to clarify, the mages became the first darkspawn, they didn't create them, and then they spread the Taint, changing others around them. As for the Grey Wardens, to make the Joining work without killing them, they certainly needed a mage's help. But both non mages and mages contributed.

You say potato I say potàto. Matter of fact is that mages are responsible for the Darkspawn.

And WoT clarifies that the only thing you need a mage for in the Joinning ritual is to make the concoction more edible, the ritual itself can be done without any mage.

[wcholcombe]

Specific people are responsible for killing Andraste, and possibly for the Blights, not mages as a whole. It's recognized primarily as a curse by Andrastians in both games, which leads to the abysmal views that Keili and Bethany have of themselves because of their 'curse'.

It is more than the Andrastrian belief.  It is also built on the ravages and rampages that came from the actions of Magister lords during the height of the imperium and the abominations and such they unleashed on the world.

 

There are plenty of andrastrian mages that have a perfectly fine view of themselves as people and mages-Wynne.

[Asdrubael Vect]

On the darkspawn, just to clarify, the mages became the first darkspawn, they didn't create them, and then they spread the Taint, changing others around them. As for the Grey Wardens, to make the Joining work without killing them, they certainly needed a mage's help. But both non mages and mages contributed.

just to clarity Orlais Chantry start claims after 2 blight that some guys was in "Black Golden City" in Fade and became a darkspawns and bring taint in Thedas but this stuff is impossible and does not make any sense according by lore about darkspawns, ghouls, broodmothers, taint and that all darkspawns came from deep roads and not from temples of Old Gods when Ancient Tevinters do sacrifices and that in  just 10 years after "evil Magisters go to fade" all dwarven empire is already fallen and darkspans came from deep roads and start to destroy Thedas

 

i am not talking that elves(do not mention that Arlathans have knoledge about taint what elves gave to Magisters who create Grey Wardens) and dwarfs does not believe in Orlais Chantry Bullshit about some "evil Magisters who do all darkspawns and creates blights"

[Cainhurst Crow]

So I guess templars are all genocidal power abusers and the chantry indeed is made up of orlisan assassins and all dwarves are paragons because they have a few members in their ranks like that. No? Well then why are all mages responsible for the actions of a few assholes who happen to be mages?

[Hellion Rex]

You say potato I say potàto. Matter of fact is that mages are responsible for the Darkspawn.

And WoT clarifies that the only thing you need a mage for in the Joinning ritual is to make the concoction more edible, the ritual itself can be done without any mage.

Emperor, Emperor, Emperor....I was not disagreeing with you.

 

Also, when they were making the Joining initially, they probably had to go through trial and error. They probably had to make use of magic to make sure they didn't get themselves killed while testing different, early versions.

[TheKomandorShepard]

In the comics it is pretty heavily hinted at that Flemeth is abominationesq.  And Wynne is extremely religious in DAO, her whole viewpoint is she is a pro chantry mage in opposition to Morrigan's apostate position.  And she never loses control because of the spirit. She loses control when she touches that red staff and immediately returns to herself when it is destroyed.  The spirit never manifests itself over Wynne and in Asunder doesn't even appear until Wynne confronts the demon.

 

Now yes, I doubt Rhys' intelligence for how he handled Cole, but you can't say he was manipulated when after he attempts to force cole to reveal himself to others.

 

I don't know much about comics so you have upper hand here... what leliana was extremely religious not wynne wynne was beliver but she said even to leliana that her faith don't rule her life and she rarely was talking about maker or religious matters... yep it did it was her spirit and he manifested then. 

 

Cole was demon he could mind control rhys when he wanted and stop when he wanted as i said once demons (pride and desire) are very intelligent and much better manipulators than normal human can be...

[LobselVith8]

You say potato I say potàto. Matter of fact is that mages are responsible for the Darkspawn.

And WoT clarifies that the only thing you need a mage for in the Joinning ritual is to make the concoction more edible, the ritual itself can be done without any mage.

 

The matter of fact is that we don't know the inception of the darkspawn. We know that Corypheus and some other Magisters were tainted in the City (that appears to already have been Black by the time they arrived), but we don't even know if they were the first darkspawn, or if the City already being Black suggests that there were darkspawn prior to them. Arguing as though this isn't up for debate is disingenuous.

 

WoT addresses that magic is part of the process for the Joining; it doesn't suggest that mages aren't needed for the Joining.

[wcholcombe]

just to clarity Orlais Chantry start claims after 2 blight that some guys was in "Black Golden City" in Fade and became a darkspawns and bring taint in Thedas but this stuff is impossible and does not make any sense according by lore about darkspawns, ghouls, broodmothers, taint and that all darkspawns came from deep roads and not from temples of Old Gods when Ancient Tevinters do sacrifices and that in  just 10 years after "evil Magisters go to fade" all dwarven empire is already fallen and darkspans cae from deep roads and start to destroy Thedas

 

i am not talking that elves(do not mention that Arlathans have knoledge about taint what elves gave to Magisters who create Grey Wardens) and dwarfs does not believe in Orlais Chantry Bullshit about some "evil Magisters who do all darkspawns and creates blights"

No, actually one of the Magister lords admits to it in the DLC for DA2.  So yeah it happened.

[EmperorSahlertz]

So I guess templars are all genocidal power abusers and the chantry indeed is made up of orlisan assassins and all dwarves are paragons because they have a few members in their ranks like that. No? Well then why are all mages responsible for the actions of a few assholes who happen to be mages?

Because you do not have to specify. You can also say "The Dwarves lives in Orzammar" without having to specify that only SOME of the Dwarven population lives there. Unless you are talking to a complete moron.

 

Emperor, Emperor, Emperor....I was not disagreeing with you.

 

Also, when they were making the Joining initially, they probably had to go through trial and error. They probably had to make use of magic to make sure they didn't get themselves killed while testing different, early versions.

Trial and error was perhaps involved, but there are no mention of any magister being involved, but only Tevinter soldiers. Experimentation is not limited to mages.

 

And it is easier when you disagree with me 

[LobselVith8]

It is more than the Andrastrian belief.  It is also built on the ravages and rampages that came from the actions of Magister lords during the height of the imperium and the abominations and such they unleashed on the world.

 

There are plenty of andrastrian mages that have a perfectly fine view of themselves as people and mages-Wynne.

 

The Qunari certainly share the same negative view of mages and magic that the Andrastians have, but there are other cultures that don't vilify magic and mages. And Wynne doesn't change the negative view that some mages hold of themselves precisely as a result of their Andrastian faith.

[Hellion Rex]

 

And it is easier when you disagree with me 

But why would I want to make it easy for you?

[EmperorSahlertz]

But why would I want to make it easy for you?

My ruggedly handsome look and charming personality?

[Hellion Rex]

My ruggedly handsome look and charming personality?

Oh, touche, good sir. Alas, you have found my one weakness!

[wcholcombe]

4)Rivain is ruled by Witches and their dynasty is nothing like in Antiva or Anderfels

6)Anderfels is ruled by Grey Wardens, Tevinters are Andrastians too)))

7)nope Templars as Chantry Cirles exist just ~700 years

 

4) WoT-Rivain is ruled by a King and Aristocracy who are all andrastian.  The Witches you refer to live in the rural settlements not the major city that rules the kingdom.

6) Anderfels largely consists of the Grey Warden Keep, the city of Hossberg, and rural settlement. The current king doesn't worry much about what is outside of Hossberg but he isn't ruled by the grey wardens yet.  Also the grey wardens again aren't all mages. Yes but actually the WoT refers to their religion as Chantry, not Black Chantry so it is different.

7) We are in the 40th year of the 9th Age since Divine Justinia the I was named divine of new chantry.  That would be 840 years.  Each age is 100 years.  Plus, the chantry began in 160 ancient by Hessarian with laws preventing Mages from holding power and mages having to belong to a circle.  Templars began in 100 ancient as the Inquisition. So yeah 1000 years.

[Asdrubael Vect]

No, actually one of the Magister lords admits to it in the DLC for DA2.  So yeah it happened.

Corynfeus and those who inprison him does proves that Orlais Chantry lie

 

Corynfeus Dumat Priest who was found after 1 blight was in some place what he belived would be a "Golden City where they will found somethink" what Dumat ordered him to find, and he said that this place was dark and said about Dwarven Deep Roads and dwarven slaves...Corynfeus said NOTHING ABOUT FADE, SACRIFICES, TAINT, DARKSPAWS

 

for those Tevinters Grey Wardens who found and inprison him he was not a more than a very strange and dangerous tainted creature, nothing about some "evil magisters who was in fade and etc"

[The Baconer]

While yes they are referred to as mages and were founded by a mage, nothing in their description says they do anything but advise and practice mummification and maintane the Grand Necropolis.  In WoT it even scoffs at the rumors and inflated stories about necromancy that are held outside of Nevarra.

 

Also throw in the fact that Nevarra is again a Chantry nation(WoT) loyal to the Divine in Val Royeux I don't see them having a renegade group of mages running around. Seriously that would be a pretty big break from the rest of the Andrastian nations loyal to the the Divine.

 

Not using magic in their work is not the same as claiming that they aren't mages, which they are. And it's clear that they exist in a position of cultural importance in Nevarra, so whether or not they would be "renegade" depends entirely on who you ask.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

how about Tevinters selfdefense from their barbarians enemys who attack them(and Andraste was a mage and Maferat gave her to Tevinters) and some Old Gods stuff what we do know mostly nothing, but we know that blood mages/elves saved Thedas from Blights and Create Grey Wardens

 

Magic is a gift and a "curse" for Orlais Chantry and Orlais royal blood since Drakkon 1 die

 

Ha! You mean self defense against the barbarians they had attacked subjugated and enslaved for centuries? The Imperium was most certainly the aggressors in their wars with the Alamarri. The Tevinters first invaded the Ferelden Valley 500 years before Andraste was even born (and subseuqnetly taken as a slave by the Imperium).

[LobselVith8]

No, actually one of the Magister lords admits to it in the DLC for DA2.  So yeah it happened.

 

I don't think it does. The first dwarven accounts of the first darkspawn make no reference to encountering anything remotely like Corypheus, and there have been debates about the City due to Corypheus' own admission about when the Magisters emerged into the Fade, especially since he thought Dumat had forsaken them. I'm not seeing anything in the storyline that proves that the Chantry version is correct (since there's no indication that the Maker specifically cursed the Magisters or anything like that, which is part of the Chantry fable), especially when the status of the City and the knowledge about whether or not the Magisters were even the first proto-darkspawn is still up for debate.

[wcholcombe]

Not using magic in their work is not the same as claiming that they aren't mages, which they are. And it's clear that they exist in a position of cultural importance in Nevarra, so whether or not they would be "renegade" depends entirely on who you ask.

Ok, Nevarra is a Chantry Nation.  Do you seriously think that as hard line as the chantry has been in the past about mages they would have hesitated to call a March on Nevarra if they thought the country was being ruled by mages advising the kings?  Seriously?  I mean there are things I would argue in defense of the Chantry about, but I wouldn't even try to argue what there response would be to mages advising the king without overview by templars or such.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Ha! You mean self defense against the barbarians they had attacked subjugated and enslaved for centuries? The Imperium was most certainly the aggressors in their wars with the Alamarri. The Tevinters first invaded the Ferelden Valley 500 years before Andraste was even born (and subseuqnetly taken as a slave by the Imperium).

still a self defense, Andraste barbarians(it was not the same ones with what Ancient Tevinters fight centures/thousand years ago before Ancient Tevinter collapse and after first blight) attack and Tevinters was defend themselfs

 

the Andraste was aggresor and she conquer south barbarians and want to go conquer north and became the only ruler of Thedas and a "god" wife

[Jedi Master of Orion]

still a self defense, barbarians(it was not the same ones with what Ancient Tevinters fight centures/thousand years ago) attack and Tevinters was defend themselfs

 

the Andraste was aggresor and she conquer south barbarians and want to go north

 

No, if anything it was a counter attack. The Imperium had occupied most of Ferelden (they built Ostagar, remember?) and only recently had withdrawn at all because of the First Blight. And despite that they were still attacking and enslaving Alamarri people because Andraste herself was taken as a slave even though she was from the north of Ferelden.

[wcholcombe]

I don't think it does. The first dwarven accounts of the first darkspawn make no reference to encountering anything remotely like Corypheus, and there have been debates about the City due to Corypheus' own admission about when the Magisters emerged into the Fade, especially since he thought Dumat had forsaken them. I'm not seeing anything in the storyline that proves that the Chantry version is correct (since there's no indication that the Maker specifically cursed the Magisters or anything like that, which is part of the Chantry fable), especially when the status of the City and the knowledge about whether or not the Magisters were even the first proto-darkspawn is still up for debate.

"Certain fragments of his post-awakened ramblings lead Hawke and the others to conclude that he truly was one of the magisters who entered the so-called Golden City and returned as one of the first darkspawn."  Not completely definite but it certainly sounds that way.

[The Baconer]

Ok, Nevarra is a Chantry Nation.  Do you seriously think that as hard line as the chantry has been in the past about mages they would have hesitated to call a March on Nevarra if they thought the country was being ruled by mages advising the kings?  Seriously?  I mean there are things I would argue in defense of the Chantry about, but I wouldn't even try to argue what there response would be to mages advising the king without overview by templars or such.

 

Yes. Nevarra is one of the strongest nations in Thedas, rivaling Orlais. A good fraction of the forces fielded during exalted marches in the past are probably Nevarran.

[wcholcombe]

Yes. Nevarra is one of the strongest nations in Thedas, rivaling Orlais. A good fraction of the forces fielded during exalted marches in the past are probably Nevarran.

That is a very recent developement.  They were just another city state until the exalted age.  If they had mages running the country they would have been squashed before they attained that much power in the last 2 ages.

[leaguer of one]

That is a very recent developement.  They were just another city state until the exalted age.  If they had mages running the country they would have been squashed before they attained that much power in the last 2 ages.

Please, it matter not what they were before. It what they were now. Your statement is like saying Tevintor is better and stronger than Orlias because it's older.