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[LobselVith8]

"Certain fragments of his post-awakened ramblings lead Hawke and the others to conclude that he truly was one of the magisters who entered the so-called Golden City and returned as one of the first darkspawn."  Not completely definite but it certainly sounds that way.

 

Which, again, still leads us back to the debates about the status of the City itself (as to whether or not it was Black when they arrived), as well as whether or not the Magisters were even the first darkspawn, and what caused the taint if the City was already Black. Nothing is conclusive from Corypheus' admissions because it's still an issue of contention among fans about what actually happened, and what resulted from the incident in the City.

[wcholcombe]

Which, again, still leads us back to the debates about the status of the City itself (as to whether or not it was Black when they arrived), as well as whether or not the Magisters were even the first darkspawn, and what caused the taint if the City was already Black. Nothing is conclusive from Corypheus' admissions because it's still an issue of contention among fans about what actually happened, and what resulted from the incident in the City.

I have not interest in the city, my interest is in the fact that they brought the taint back.  We weren't arguing chantry right or wrong, we were arguing source of the taint and darkspawn.

[The Baconer]

That is a very recent developement.  They were just another city state until the exalted age.  If they had mages running the country they would have been squashed before they attained that much power in the last 2 ages.

 

Who said they're running the country? While they've always had political clout, the rumor that they're ruling through a puppet king is a recent occurrence.

[wcholcombe]

Please, it matter not what they were before. It what they were now. Your statement is like saying Tevintor is better and stronger than Orlias because it's older. 

You have comprehension issues....We were discussing would the Chantry have allowed mages to run Niverra.  Bacon stated that they wouldn't have marched on Nevarra because it is about as powerful as Orlais-currently yes. But if mages had been running it when it was a city state Neverra would have been squashed by the chantry.

[wcholcombe]

TheKomandorShepard

Does you know that Rivain and Nevarra(Mortalitasi) is actually ruled by mages))) and any non-andrastians such Avvars, Chasind and etc i am not even talking about Dalish and Dragon cultists have mages as their rules

 

Grey Wardens-Anderfels have Blood Mages in high ranks and Order can't exist without them

 

why mages even need "new/another Ancient Tevinter with OG worship" if mostly all thedas lands have various magocratys for more than 8500 years, Thedas have it before  human arriving in Thedas, Ancient Tevinter and after Ancient Tevinter and creating Orlais Chantry and their Templars who exist just 600-700 years and already failed

 

the only places in Thedas who are not  officialy controled by mages is Orlais and some parts of Free Marshes and Ferelden and they was not controled for 600 years

 

nothing really change for 8500 years Thedas was controlled by mages and always will be

 

 

Who said they're running the country? While they've always had political clout, the rumor that they're ruling through a puppet king is a recent occurrence.

Asdrubel did in the comment above that started this whole tangent.  That is what I have been arguing against.

[The Baconer]

Asdrubel did in the comment above that started this whole tangent.  That is what I have been arguing against.

 

Oh. Well, Vect's posting style is pretty much that of a bizarro KommanderShepard, so addressing them is probably a mistake.

[leaguer of one]

You have comprehension issues....We were discussing would the Chantry have allowed mages to run Niverra.  Bacon stated that they wouldn't have marched on Nevarra because it is about as powerful as Orlais-currently yes. But if mages had been running it when it was a city state Neverra would have been squashed by the chantry.

That's  what my point is against. The main power behind the chantry is Orlias, which is now in a civil war, and the templars, which they now have no power over now.
Niverra will be the most powerful nation in Thedus being that it the only nation not weaken by the chaos of the past years. Say the Nivarra just got the power means nothing. The chantry has no power to stop them from doing what they want to do.

[LobselVith8]

I have not interest in the city, my interest is in the fact that they brought the taint back.  We weren't arguing chantry right or wrong, we were arguing source of the taint and darkspawn.

 

Which isn't known at this point. All we know is that Corypheus and his fellow Magisters appear to have entered the City; a great deal of information surrounding this event is still up for debate.

[Master Warder Z_]

Which isn't known at this point. All we know is that Corypheus and his fellow Magisters appear to have entered the City; a great deal of information surrounding this event is still up for debate.

 

And likely will be for the length of the series.

 

Given Bioware has repeatedly stated they won't confirm or deny the existence of the Maker, Elven Gods or if the Old Gods ever existed in a format beyond Darkspawn driven abominations. thus the majority of the back story has to come from myth, speculation and personal perspective on the matter.

 

I'd like to think the Old Gods existed in reality personally but that's just because they were Male Elder High Dragons.

 

Its sort of a middle finger to the entirety of the female normal high dragons.

[wcholcombe]

That's  what my point is against. The main power behind the chantry is Orlias, which is now in a civil war, and the templars, which they now have no power over now.
Niverra will be the most powerful nation in Thedus being that it the only nation not weaken by the chaos of the past years. Say the Nivarra just got the power means nothing. The chantry has no power to stop them from doing what they want to do.

Leaguer are you missing what we are discussing?

 

I am saying that if Niverra has been run by "apostates" advising the king for the last few hundred years, the Chantry would have crushed them 300 years ago for having apostates in positions of power.  Not to mention that the Chantry is the dominant faith in Nivarra so I don't see the people or the king having mages in positions of power.  They are probably mages in the same way the ancient Pharoahs had Wizards as advisers.  In truth their "magic" is probably just the knowledge of how to perform mumifications and prepare bodies.  I am sorry but if the Chantry split with the Black Chantry over the interpretation of the chant, I don't see them letting some measly city state basically do the same thing for the last several ages.  If they are mages, they were mages 300 years ago and would have been squashed as the apostates they were.

[Master Warder Z_]

Leaguer are you missing what we are discussing?

 

I am saying that if Niverra has been run by "apostates" advising the king for the last few hundred years, the Chantry would have crushed them 300 years ago for having apostates in positions of power.  Not to mention that the Chantry is the dominant faith in Nivarra so I don't see the people or the king having mages in positions of power.  They are probably mages in the same way the ancient Pharoahs had Wizards as advisers.  In truth their "magic" is probably just the knowledge of how to perform mumifications and prepare bodies.  I am sorry but if the Chantry split with the Black Chantry over the interpretation of the chant, I don't see them letting some measly city state basically do the same thing for the last several ages.  If they are mages, they were mages 300 years ago and would have been squashed as the apostates they were.

 

 

Is he confusing Monarchy appointed Royal Advisers/Court Wizards that the Circles approve of with the apostates that the Chantry likely all buried in mass graves the moment they got let in the door in that Nation?

 

I am of the mind that unauthorized magic was something the Chantry frowned upon and moved to obliterate with out mercy whenever they had the chance to do so; With the Nation's blessing most of the time given unauthorized mages were as much a danger to them as they were any one else.

[The Baconer]

Leaguer are you missing what we are discussing?

 

I am saying that if Niverra has been run by "apostates" advising the king for the last few hundred years, the Chantry would have crushed them 300 years ago for having apostates in positions of power.  Not to mention that the Chantry is the dominant faith in Nivarra so I don't see the people or the king having mages in positions of power.  They are probably mages in the same way the ancient Pharoahs had Wizards as advisers.  In truth their "magic" is probably just the knowledge of how to perform mumifications and prepare bodies.  I am sorry but if the Chantry split with the Black Chantry over the interpretation of the chant, I don't see them letting some measly city state basically do the same thing for the last several ages.  If they are mages, they were mages 300 years ago and would have been squashed as the apostates they were.

 

They are mages, and they hold positions of power. That much is stated plainly in WoT and isn't up for debate.

[wcholcombe]

They are mages, and they hold positions of power. That much is stated plainly in WoT and isn't up for debate.

It also states in WoT they are rumored to practice necromantic arts, but it doesn't say they do.

 

I am sorry, but seriously, ya'll have a harsher view of Chantry practices than I, do you think the Chantry would have allowed a city state to become a country this powerful in the last 300 years if they had apostate mages advising the king.

 

That is all I am asking right there?

 

BTW, another argument that life for mages was better prior to recent events.  The court mage in Stolen Throne is not followed, watched, or even observed by templars when he serves the olesian king. He is even able to give orders to his men and servants.  So again, just because life recently has been harsh on circle mages doesn't mean it has been that way for the last 900 years.

[Master Warder Z_]

They are mages, and they hold positions of power. That much is stated plainly in WoT and isn't up for debate.

 

Does it state plainly that they are there with out being circle approved like every other court wizard in Thedas?

 

.-. if so that is something alien in Thedas; Something i honestly doubt the Chantry would approve of.

 

They tend to not care for Circle Appointed Wizards influencing nobility, little lone rogue mages.

[Dabrikishaw]

Well it was a little confusing getting caught up with everyone again, but now that I know who's who I'll give my own opinion. The issue itself is now balanced thanks to Asunder.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Seriously people: Fiona, Ariane, Rhys, Lambert, Evangeline, Wynne, Meredith, Orsino, etc etc etc have all been played very badly by someone we haven't met anyway.  Seriously do ya'll think after 1000+ years a mage templar war just decided to happen?  No someone has pulled the strings to bring this about for an exact purpose.

If it was by itself, then maybe. But it happening at the exact same time as the Orlersian Civil War, Ferelden recovering from the Blight, the Dalish rising up, etc. Yeah, this is just another thing the big baddie who wants the Veil Sundered has started to help them along with their goals. 

[Master Warder Z_]

If it was by itself, then maybe. But it happening at the exact same time as the Orlersian Civil War, Ferelden recovering from the Blight, the Dalish rising up, etc. Yeah, this is just another thing the big baddie who wants the Veil Sundered has started to help them along with their goals. 

 

I bet its Fiona!

 

Death to Salad Eaters!

[wcholcombe]

I bet its Fiona!

 

Death to Salad Eaters!

I hope your saying she is a vegetarian, I don't recall the Calling being that graphic.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Mages ARE responsible for killing Andraste and starting the Blights.... Yet magic is still recognized for its dual nature in Andrastian nations. It is a gift AND a curse.

I'd say that for killing Andraste the result would have been the same if the Magisters were nonmages. All who have power are afraid to lose it, magic or not.

The Blights, yeah that is pretty much unarguable that the Magisters actually went there ever since we met Corypheus, though he brings a new mystery of the Golden City already being black by the time they got there.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I bet its Fiona!

 

Death to Salad Eaters!

Nah, it's too obvious. They seem to be going the "mysterious villain who operates in the shadows" type thing this time, and Fiona is not exactly known for being subtle.

[Master Warder Z_]

Nah, it's too obvious. They seem to be going the "mysterious villain who operates in the shadows" type thing this time, and Fiona is not exactly known for being subtle.

 

O_o 

 

...*Kills Fiona anyway*

 

...

[The Baconer]

It also states in WoT they are rumored to practice necromantic arts, but it doesn't say they do.

 

Yes, and that statement is acknowledged as a rumor. On the other hand, the phrase "In Nevarra, mages have more power than those in most Chantry controlled nations. They are well organized, wealthy, and hold political sway" is not discussing a rumor, it's a plain statement of fact.

 

 

I am sorry, but seriously, ya'll have a harsher view of Chantry practices than I, do you think the Chantry would have allowed a city state to become a country this powerful in the last 300 years if they had apostate mages advising the king.

 

Well, it's clear that Nevarra doesn't consider them apostates. They are probably trained and educated in the Circles, but it has not been stated for sure.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's not like there is never any precedent for having mages advise monarchs. Wynne says she's accepted a position at the Ferelden court in some epilogues.

[Master Warder Z_]

It's not like there is never any precedent for having mages advise monarchs. Wynne says she's accepted a position at the Ferelden court in some epilogues.

 

Every Adviser/ Court Wizard in Thedas and likely in the Imperium as well comes from the circle though.

 

The mages mentioned here are Apostates.

[Hellion Rex]

Every Adviser/ Court Wizard in Thedas and likely in the Imperium as well comes from the circle though.

 

The mages mentioned here are Apostates.

Well, in Tevinter the Archon is usually a mage lol.