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[Br3admax]

Don't agree about DA:O though, the Templars knew the Warden was a mage, while Kirkwall just has something in the water. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

"You are punished for what you do, not for what you are."

Wonderful sentiment, but utterly too idealistic and divorced from the reality of the situation. A normal person can be disarmed. A normal person is not constantly at risk of controlling or being controlled by another entity to commit horrific acts. A normal person, in short, is who the law is made for, and what the law is concerned with, and mages are not normal. I dont care how many dreams mages have, their case isnt the same as the struggle for women and various ethnic groups for recognized equality in society. Martin Luther king Jr could open portals to hell because of a bad day. Susan b. Anthony couldn't control peoples minds by cutting her palms. Gandhi couldn't shoot for out of his hands in self defense.

Comparing mages to other groups who've had to struggle for their rights is to ignore the truth plight and what it means to be a mage in favor of crusading for what you think is socially acceptable with your own flawed lenses.

[wcholcombe]

Don't agree about DA:O though, the Templars knew the Warden was a mage, while Kirkwall just has something in the water. 

Really, Morrigan wasn't an obvious mage?

[LobselVith8]

And likely will be for the length of the series.

Given Bioware has repeatedly stated they won't confirm or deny the existence of the Maker, Elven Gods or if the Old Gods ever existed in a format beyond Darkspawn driven abominations. thus the majority of the back story has to come from myth, speculation and personal perspective on the matter.

I'd like to think the Old Gods existed in reality personally but that's just because they were Male Elder High Dragons.

Its sort of a middle finger to the entirety of the female normal high dragons.

The view that the Old Gods were just ancient dragons is actually one held by some scholars, as mentioned in the codex.

[durasteel]

...
Laws at made because of what people might do, its just a fact. We outlaw murder because people might murder. We outlaw rape because people might rape. ...

 

And locking away every mage for the threat they might pose is like incarcerating everyone with a trigger finger for the murder they might commit, or everyone with man parts because of the rape of which they are potentially capable. If people were this imprisoned, and one of them broke out, would you suggest that that person had proved himself a murderer, or a rapist, just by virtue of escaping the concentration camp? That would be asinine, and so is the implication that a mage is likely to slaughter a village just because he's shown a willingness to flaunt the law that consigns him to a cage for his entire life for being what he is, regardless of whether he's done anything harmful to anyone, ever.

 

You can say what you want about the spoiled mage brat who runs away from the circle--it just makes me wonder how long you would have to spend as a prisoner locked in a tower before you started looking for a way out. I imagine your respect for the law that strips away your freedom might erode quickly.

[leaguer of one]

Leaguer are you missing what we are discussing?

 

I am saying that if Niverra has been run by "apostates" advising the king for the last few hundred years, the Chantry would have crushed them 300 years ago for having apostates in positions of power.  Not to mention that the Chantry is the dominant faith in Nivarra so I don't see the people or the king having mages in positions of power.  They are probably mages in the same way the ancient Pharoahs had Wizards as advisers.  In truth their "magic" is probably just the knowledge of how to perform mumifications and prepare bodies.  I am sorry but if the Chantry split with the Black Chantry over the interpretation of the chant, I don't see them letting some measly city state basically do the same thing for the last several ages.  If they are mages, they were mages 300 years ago and would have been squashed as the apostates they were.

And what if they were secretly run by the circle of Nivarra?

[KaiserShep]

Don't agree about DA:O though, the Templars knew the Warden was a mage, while Kirkwall just has something in the water.

The talkative man was right. It was lyrium all along.

[Master Warder Z_]

And locking away every mage for the threat they might pose is like incarcerating everyone with a trigger finger for the murder they might commit, or everyone with man parts because of the rape of which they are potentially capable. If people were this imprisoned, and one of them broke out, would you suggest that that person had proved himself a murderer, or a rapist, just by virtue of escaping the concentration camp? That would be asinine, and so is the implication that a mage is likely to slaughter a village just because he's shown a willingness to flaunt the law that consigns him to a cage for his entire life for being what he is, regardless of whether he's done anything harmful to anyone, ever.

 

You can say what you want about the spoiled mage brat who runs away from the circle--it just makes me wonder how long you would have to spend as a prisoner locked in a tower before you started looking for a way out. I imagine your respect for the law that strips away your freedom might erode quickly.

 

Those who can use firearms are not comparable to those who can influence the minds of others by slitting their own wrists, they also lack the ability to be possessed in moments of stress.

 

I don't view the argument of locking away some one who may be a threat, giving them free education, board and room for the entirity of their lives as comparable to a concentration camp either. 

[Master Warder Z_]

And what if they were secretly run by the circle of Nivarra?

 

 

Why wouldn't the circle just appoint an adviser like they do in every other kingdom in Thedas?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't view the argument of locking away some one who may be a threat, giving them free education, board and room for the entirity of their lives as comparable to a concentration camp either. 

A concentration camp is a place which a government uses to keep people who are either against that government or who it thinks are too dangerous to remain free. Sometimes these are called internment camps, where a large number of people are put in prison without a trial.

The people who are locked away in such a prison, are not usually yet found guilty of a crime, but may be politically against the leaders of a region, people who are of a certain race or religion, or non-military prisoners of war.

 

Sure sounds like the Circle system to me.

[Br3admax]

Really, Morrigan wasn't an obvious mage?

Do you even Right of Conscription? They knew Morrigan was a mage too. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Do you even Right of Conscription? They knew Morrigan was a mage too. 

I think he was referring to the Telplars in Lothering, actually. 

[leaguer of one]

"You are punished for what you do, not for what you are."

Wonderful sentiment, but utterly too idealistic and divorced from the reality of the situation. A normal person can be disarmed. A normal person is not constantly at risk of controlling or being controlled by another entity to commit horrific acts. A normal person, in short, is who the law is made for, and what the law is concerned with, and mages are not normal. I dont care how many dreams mages have, their case isnt the same as the struggle for women and various ethnic groups for recognized equality in society. Martin Luther king Jr could open portals to hell because of a bad day. Susan b. Anthony couldn't control peoples minds by cutting her palms. Gandhi couldn't shoot for out of his hands in self defense.

Comparing mages to other groups who've had to struggle for their rights is to ignore the truth plight and what it means to be a mage in favor of crusading for what you think is socially acceptable with your own flawed lenses.

That's not being naive. That being fair. Your type of thinking let to many massacres because one side paints the other with the same brush.

[Master Warder Z_]

 

A concentration camp is a place which a government uses to keep people who are either against that government or who it thinks are too dangerous to remain free. Sometimes these are called internment camps, where a large number of people are put in prison without a trial.

The people who are locked away in such a prison, are not usually yet found guilty of a crime, but may be politically against the leaders of a region, people who are of a certain race or religion, or non-military prisoners of war.

 

Sure sounds like the Circle system to me.

 

 

 

Sure the Circle is Dachau.

 

Except no torture unless warranted, steady food, the means of survival of provided free of charge, the mages given education in an effort to harness their gifts for the betterment of society. And Executions only occur in the instance of possession, rebellion or otherwise extreme circumstance. Oh and Tranqulity removes the need for execution in all but most extreme cases to begin with; Ultimately The Circle is a learning institution that exists to prevent mages from destroying society and society from destroying them.

 

Comparing it to an interment camp is laughable.

[leaguer of one]

Those who can use firearms are not comparable to those who can influence the minds of others by slitting their own wrists, they also lack the ability to be possessed in moments of stress.

 

I don't view the argument of locking away some one who may be a threat, giving them free education, board and room for the entirity of their lives as comparable to a concentration camp either. 

There's a difference between judging them all blindly and regulation. No one is asking for total freedom, but jailing them all is too extreme of a precaution.

You keep   thinkiing it has to be one extreme or it will turn into another extreme. You have not yet to try collaboration and a middle ground?

[Br3admax]

I think he was referring to the Telplars in Lothering, actually. 

They were watching her, though. Obviously the women in rags is not normal. Either way, Warden was still there. 

[durasteel]

"You are punished for what you do, not for what you are."

Wonderful sentiment, but utterly too idealistic and divorced from the reality of the situation. A normal person can be disarmed. A normal person is not constantly at risk of controlling or being controlled by another entity to commit horrific acts. A normal person, in short, is who the law is made for, and what the law is concerned with, and mages are not normal. ...

 

A normal person can be disarmed, legally, after he's committed a crime. Prior to that point, he's allowed to have an arsenal. Even if the law says you're not allowed to have a weapon, it's pretty easy to pick one up anyway.

 

A normal person can be possessed in Thedas. Hell, a tree can be possessed. While it is possible for a mage to do certain things that make possession a lot more likely, you seem to be arguing that they should all be caged regardless of whether they have done anything dangerous.

 

Mages aren't put in concentration camps because of the characteristics of mages, their cage because of a characteristic of "normal people." That characteristic is fear, and its management and manipulation is the primary business of the Chantry.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

Sure the Circle is Dachau.

 

Except no torture unless warranted, steady food, the means of survival of provided free of charge, the mages given education in an effort to harness their gifts for the betterment of society. And Executions only occur in the instance of possession, rebellion or otherwise extreme circumstance. Oh and Tranqulity removes the need for execution in all but most extreme cases to begin with; Ultimately The Circle is a learning institution that exists to prevent mages from destroying society and society from destroying them.

 

Comparing it to an interment camp is laughable.

You know all concentration camps weren't as extreme as the ones in Germany, right?

[leaguer of one]

 

Sure the Circle is Dachau.

 

Except no torture unless warranted, steady food, the means of survival of provided free of charge, the mages given education in an effort to harness their gifts for the betterment of society. And Executions only occur in the instance of possession, rebellion or otherwise extreme circumstance. Oh and Tranqulity removes the need for execution in all but most extreme cases to begin with; Ultimately The Circle is a learning institution that exists to prevent mages from destroying society and society from destroying them.

 

Comparing it to an interment camp is laughable.

Untill you count kirkwall and what it is post-kirkwall rebellion.

[durasteel]

Those who can use firearms are not comparable to those who can influence the minds of others by slitting their own wrists, they also lack the ability to be possessed in moments of stress.

 

I don't view the argument of locking away some one who may be a threat, giving them free education, board and room for the entirity of their lives as comparable to a concentration camp either. 

 

I'd rather be mind controlled than shot, thank you very much.

 

And if you don't see the two as comparable, it might be because (1) you have never faced the prospect of life in prison, no matter how comfortable your cell might be, and (2) you don't want to, because it might make your position in this argument untenable. 

[Master Warder Z_]

You know all concentration camps weren't as extreme as the ones in Germany, right?

 

They weren't that bad in some cases...

 

In fact several produced notable medical and genetic breakthroughs that are still used in some forms today.

 

But ahem...anyway i do realize there are less "extreme" versions in some cases sure.

 

I just don't view it as a valid comparison considering there is a stark difference between the circle system and any other mass forced imprisonment ever committed in our reality. Look at those under the United States, Britain, South Korea, North Korea, China, the USSR, Any power you want to look at in history.

 

And all were more extreme then the circle.

[leaguer of one]

A normal person can be disarmed, legally, after he's committed a crime. Prior to that point, he's allowed to have an arsenal. Even if the law says you're not allowed to have a weapon, it's pretty easy to pick one up anyway.

 

A normal person can be possessed in Thedas. Hell, a tree can be possessed. While it is possible for a mage to do certain things that make possession a lot more likely, you seem to be arguing that they should all be caged regardless of whether they have done anything dangerous.

 

Mages aren't put in concentration camps because of the characteristics of mages, their cage because of a characteristic of "normal people." That characteristic is fear, and its management and manipulation is the primary business of the Chantry.

Which is why Templars and mages train to fight mages the brake the laws are needed. That does not mean jail them all.

[Cainhurst Crow]

And boom goes the Godwins Law. And yeah, let's all be honest for a moment, calling the circles concentration camps is an insult to all people whose families were interned in real camps and disgraces all those who died in those man made hells.

 

You should be ashamed for even making such a comparison.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'd rather be mind controlled than shot, thank you very much.

 

And if you don't see the two as comparable, it might be because (1) you have never faced the prospect of life in prison, no matter how comfortable your cell might be, and (2) you don't want to, because it might make your position in this argument untenable. 

 

You would rather have the core of your being ripped away from you? I have served, Worked, Studied, Learned and taught but it was all my decision, my choice. Having the ability to rip that away with just a bit of magic is...Well i hate to get religious but it's Unholy.

 

Or i could just have a conflicting perspective on the matter.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

They weren't that bad in some cases...

 

In fact several produced notable medical and genetic breakthroughs that are still used in some forms today.

 

But ahem...anyway i do realize there are less "extreme" versions in some cases sure.

 

I just don't view it as a valid comparison considering there is a stark difference between the circle system and any other mass forced imprisonment ever committed in our reality. Look at those under the United States, Britain, South Korea, North Korea, China, the USSR, Any power you want to look at in history.

 

And all were more extreme then the circle.

I'm not saying the Circle is really bad. But I'm calling it what it is and what it is by definition is a concentration camp. It concentrates all the mages away from society due to a belief that the mages are too dangerous to remain free and are put in it without a trial or being found guilty of a crime.