8640 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

OK, prior to probably the last 30 years, the circles were pretty good to mages and templars and mages worked well together, Rhys talks about it, Wynne talks about it, Wilhelm and Court mages enjoy a lot of freedom, heck the mages in Stolen throne weren't being ordered around by Templars, in fact I think the opposite might have been the case.  Even things in Kirkwall were talked about having more freedom.

 

Something changed after stolen throne and things in the circles got tighter and tigher and worse and worse.

 

May be the templars got freaked out by what happened in Ferelden, maybe a bunch of right wing zealots somehow took power when previously it had been more moderate I don't know, but something changed.

 

The templars have become more hardline, there portrayal in most aspects is one sided abuse and debasement of the mages along with the rare good templar who actually does both jobs of watching and protecting the mages.

 

The mages fall into the same lunacy.  The templars on edge over what has been happening with circles, rather than allowing tham to calm down and we rely on the support of the most powerful woman in the world, we should antagonize them further, with how mages are portrayed often it is one of the great wonders of thedas that an abomination didn't break out in the tower in Orlais.

 

Than you have the Chantry being overly dogmatic in the definition of magic should serve.  The circles worked great for 900 or so years, and I believe you will find that came from cooperation and support, not the garbage that has been pandered to lately for the sake of game drama.

 

Oh and Durasteel, don't call my 16th Great grandfather a bastard!

It came from power, the maintenance of it, and regular genocide. Also, the notion that because things might have been freer thirty years ago, they've been freer for all nine hundred, is... well, absurd in a self-explanatory way.

 

Last time I checked, DA wasn't real life. Prisons in the middle ages were horrible. Circles? Heck, I'd live there. Free meals, a place to sleep... Minus your occasional creepy Templar.

The Middle Ages barely had prisons at all; they were a financial drain, so criminals who weren't worth killing tended to just be beaten and/or humiliated. I think dungeons were typically only used for PoWs that were intended to be ransomed later.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well, you did say Templars were worse than mages across both games and Asunder. So, that'd be all Templars across the board in a sense, hmm?

And it isn't imprisonment. If it is, then man Thedas has some nice jails!

 

You saw the Arl of Denerim's Estate personal dungeons in origins yes? The Prisons of Kirkwall.

 

Then you see the Circles.

 

:/ Nice Jails indeed.

[Hellion Rex]

Kirkwall Circle was pretty bad, though not sure about Starkhaven. They were exceptions, it seems.

It was implied that it might have been bad enough for the mages to burn it down to the ground.

[Steelcan]

Mhmmm. So we have...20-30 out of how many in Thedas?

 

Now give me a list of Templars who run up a similar body count

[durasteel]

Yeah, but when you get the title "Conqueror" stuck on the end you aren't supposed to talk about those things anymore.

 

You can't expect me to observe social niceties, since my 17th great grandfather was probably familiar with his sheep. 

[wcholcombe]

It came from power, the maintenance of it, and regular genocide. Also, the notion that because things might have been freer thirty years ago, they've been freer for all nine hundred, is... well, absurd in a self-explanatory way.

Why is that, WoT portrays the forming of the original circles as a cooperative event, the first use of mages in battle as a cooperative event, a lot of things prior to recent history with the circles don't jive with what is currently practiced.

 

Also, considering the circles were pioneered in Tevinter and than adopted elsewhere, I don't imagine they were anywhere near as restrictive as the garbage we currently see depicted.

[Master Warder Z_]

Why is that, WoT portrays the forming of the original circles as a cooperative event, the first use of mages in battle as a cooperative event, a lot of things prior to recent history with the circles don't jive with what is currently practiced.

 

Also, considering the circles were pioneered in Tevinter and than adopted elsewhere, I don't imagine they were anywhere near as restrictive as the garbage we currently see depicted.

 

Restrictive due to the need of it, due to the actions of Mages none the less.

[Xilizhra]

Why is that, WoT portrays the forming of the original circles as a cooperative event, the first use of mages in battle as a cooperative event, a lot of things prior to recent history with the circles don't jive with what is currently practiced.

 

Also, considering the circles were pioneered in Tevinter and than adopted elsewhere, I don't imagine they were anywhere near as restrictive as the garbage we currently see depicted.

Firstly, it's been nine hundred years; practices will go in and out of favor. Second, the Tevinter Circle system predates the Chantry; it wasn't invented as a way of imprisoning mages, only reengineered to fit that. As for cooperation, common foes (namely, qunari and darkspawn) can ease a lot of bad blood; that doesn't mean peacetime will have good relations, and the numerous Annulments over the years show this starkly.

[Divine Justinia V]

Now give me a list of Templars who run up a similar body count

but it is said that a lot of Templars abuse Mages/Tranquil Mages -- I mean, just because they don't kill them doesn't mean they're not just as bad,

[Steelcan]

but it is said that a lot of Templars abuse Mages/Tranquil Mages -- I mean, just because they don't kill them doesn't mean they're not just as bad,

And we see evidence of one such templar

[Master Warder Z_]

Firstly, it's been nine hundred years; practices will go in and out of favor. Second, the Tevinter Circle system predates the Chantry; it wasn't invented as a way of imprisoning mages, only reengineered to fit that. As for cooperation, common foes (namely, qunari and darkspawn) can ease a lot of bad blood; that doesn't mean peacetime will have good relations, and the numerous Annulments over the years show this starkly.

 

Numerous eh? Less then twenty in a thousand years.

 

17 to be exact; up to a possible 20 if you include the ones within the dragon age.that may have occurred

 

Your blatant disregard for how the Circle Operated as an institution with the support of all sides included is represented in the warped fashion you display facts.

[Divine Justinia V]

And we see evidence of one such templar

Edvidence or not, it's kind of obvious.

but that's just my opinion.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Numerous eh? Less then twenty in a thousand years.

 

17 to be exact; up to a possible 20 if you include the ones within the dragon age.that may have occurred

 

Your blatant disregard for how the Circle Operated as an institution with the support of all sides included is represented in the warped fashion you display facts.

It would be 19 regardless, since the one in Kirkwall and Rivain still happen regardless of imput.

[Xilizhra]

Numerous eh? Less then twenty in a thousand years.

 

17 to be exact; up to a possible 20 if you include the ones within the dragon age.that may have occurred

 

Your blatant disregard for how the Circle Operated as an institution with the support of all sides included is represented in the warped fashion you display facts.

If it was supported so unanimously, then the sheer callousness that the mages over the years showed towards their murdered and mentally ravaged brethren leads me to believe they've historically been barely better, and only came into an awakening recently. Of course, I think it far more likely that it's been informed by fear.

 

Also, nineteen counts of genocide over any period of time is pretty bad, coming from one institution.

[Steelcan]

Edvidence or not, it's kind of obvious.

but that's just my opinion.

 

I can point to a whole lot more direct evidence of mage abuses than Templar ones, rumors and sensationalistic news are one thing, watching a mage blow up a tower full of innocent people, or butcher his wife, is quite another

[Master Warder Z_]

And we see evidence of one such templar

 

Just one.

 

Therefore they all must do it!

 

Despite the fact there are even some Templars that shouldn't even be templars due to how soft they are.

[Rainbow Wyvern]

Edvidence or not, it's kind of obvious.

but that's just my opinion.

There have been many, many more 'bad' mages then there has been Templars. 

[Steelcan]

If it was supported so unanimously, then the sheer callousness that the mages over the years showed towards their murdered and mentally ravaged brethren leads me to believe they've historically been barely better, and only came into an awakening recently. Of course, I think it far more likely that it's been informed by fear.

 

Also, seventeen counts of genocide over any period of time is pretty bad, coming from one institution.

 

And how many of them could have been legitimate annulments because the Circle was overrun with demons?  I'm willing to bet most were

[Master Warder Z_]

It would be 19 regardless, since the one in Kirkwall and Rivain still happen regardless of imput.

 

._. The one in Kirkwall can fail to be completed, the one in Fereldan can fail to be completed. The one in Rivain occurs with out any PC input so it occurs within the Universe regardless.

 

Point being two of those happen with regard to PC action therefore declaring them to be completed when they very well may not be completed in some world states is conclusively false.

 

Such is the glory of Bioware Canon.

[Xilizhra]

And how many of them could have been legitimate annulments because the Circle was overrun with demons?  I'm willing to bet most were

None, because the Right is inherently illegitimate.

[Master Warder Z_]

And how many of them could have been legitimate annulments because the Circle was overrun with demons?  I'm willing to bet most were

 

The anulling of Kirkwall was long overdue but i grant steel this.

 

They shouldn't have been put torch at that moment, they should have been put torch Years before the champion even showed up; That many blood mages, that much corruption just doesn't steep out of the stonework.

[Steelcan]

None, because the Right is inherently illegitimate.

 

If its codified into law than suck it up it is, whether it is just or not is another matter

[Divine Justinia V]

Just one.

 

Therefore they all must do it!

 

Despite the fact there are even some Templars that shouldn't even be templars due to how soft they are.

That's not what I said, I don't think they all do it and I definitely didn't imply they did. I think there are great Templars but you definitely tell which ones are the sadistic type.

 

There have been many, many more 'bad' mages then there has been Templars. 

I'm not sure if I believe that, I mean I feel like there's a lot that probably isn't included in games/stories. I think they may be rationed out equally. I'm not saying there's one group worse than the other, though.

[Xilizhra]

They shouldn't have been put torch at that moment, they should have been put torch Years before the champion even showed up; That many blood mages, that much corruption just doesn't steep out of the stonework.

Indeed. It's beaten in by the mailed fist of the templars. Although blood magic isn't inherently evil anyway.

 

If its codified into law than suck it up it is, whether it is just or not is another matter

Like templars and the Chantry, laws can be unmade.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

._. The one in Kirkwall can fail to be completed, the one in Fereldan can fail to be completed. The one in Rivain occurs with out any PC input so it occurs within the Universe regardless.

 

Point being two of those happen with regard to PC action therefore declaring them to be completed when they very well may not be completed in some world states is conclusively false.

 

Such is the glory of Bioware Canon.

The count is for RoA invoked, not completed. I'm sure there have been more than 17 requests in the last 900 years.