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Dialogue system in DAI


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#326
CronoDragoon

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From time to time we have had people who enjoy being surprised by what the PC says. I think this is usually associated with the position that actual role-playing in a CRPG is conceptually impossible.

 

This is pretty much my position. For one I think the humorous lines work much better that way.

 

However, this is my position whether the lines are paraphrased or shown in full (that strict RP'ing is a delusion). As such, I would hypothetically have no problem with a system where paraphrased lines are expanded upon mouse/stick-over. But it comes to the fact that since BW has stated they don't want this for stylistic reasons, I don't have the motivation to ask them to change, same as if their preferences were reversed and people wanted paraphrase-only.



#327
In Exile

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I was just meaning that using text instead of icons to convey intent would seem a more detailed way to actually convey intent, whether that's dialogue tone or a specific action. So instead of a sword icon or something to convey attacking an NPC, you could have [Strangle NPC] or [Throw Murder Knife at NPC]. Would that take the "surprise" out of what your player character did? Yeah, but to me, knowing what exact options are available is more appealing than guessing at what your exact action is going to be.

 

Or with tone acompanying a paraphrase, instead of something like a heart icon or hammer icon, just have [Flirting] or [Deathly serious] or [stoic] or [ Enraged] or [Earnest]  or [Sarcastic] or [Mocking] or any number of other sort of tone descriptors that could more precisely convey the tone than what you'd have with a graphical icon plus the paraphrase.

 

Obviously, I'm ok with a silent protagonist, but that's not happening in Inquisition. But having something like an Origins dialogue system plus words as tone descriptors would be ideal. That way you're not ever wrestling with the player character's voice actor not delivering a line that matches up with the stated tone accurately enough but you'd instead be focusing more on how the NPC/ voice actor for the NPC is going to react to player's stated response.

 

I understand what you're saying now. But I don't see how any of your suggestions relate to VO at all. That's something any RPG should have as a basic indicator of how a line is given. The bold, for example, is a problem that happens frequently in DA:O when the apparent effect of the line is completely at odds with a reasonable intepretation of the line. And the problem is doubled because, since you can hear the line, there's just no way to come up with a plausible in-world explanation for the discrepant result that allows you to understand characters.

 

At one point, you can call Alistair an idiot. It's possible - IRL - to use language like that in a somewhat affectionate, joking way. Alistair doesn't take the line well. So then we have a character interpretation issue. Is Alistair upset because he takes jokes well, but he's sensitive about his intelligence? Is that his character? Or was the line designed to be aggressive and insulting, so Alistair did nothing more than just react to it like anyone would to an insult? 

 

Having this information is very important for actually interacting with characters in the world. 


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#328
In Exile

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From time to time we have had people who enjoy being surprised by what the PC says. I think this is usually associated with the position that actual role-playing in a CRPG is conceptually impossible.

And then there's me. The two or three times per game I'm surprised by what my PC says I'm not particularly concerned, because I was going to have to shape my PC's thoughts around that line anyway.

 

Fair point, re: the first line. In terms of the second, I don't usually have problems with VO... except (in DA2) for the Merril line (which I actually read exactly as you did, that Hawke's taking responsibility for the event sand not Merrill, but chose that line because that was in-character). 



#329
CybAnt1

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In terms of eloquent characters, I think the dialogue itself stops you from being one. While no Bioware VO game did this, Bioware silent PC games make eloquence impossible because your communication is limited to short, often open-ended pithy lines. You (almost) never have the opportunity to express your view on things except as a narrow pithy one-liner, and discussing any position with nuance is just not part of the design. Nothing is like say, PS:T and those long philosophical paragraph responses. 

 

OK. But one fact is known, correct?

 

Games have a word/writing budget, even if the words are just text. But then, they have to also have a VA budget, if all the words are going to be voiced.

 

Unless the budget increases, more voicing = fewer words. It is more expensive to get an actor to speak a line than to have an intern type it into the dialogue database. Please note, that was not an argument against voiced NPCs (I love them, I've gotten so terribly used to them) and not even against the voiced PC -- just a statement of fact and reality.
 

And since you brought up Planescape Torment, well, there was dialogue that was so beautifully written (without voicing, but I still view whether it's going to be said or not a semi-independent variable), and it didn't sell well. It makes me cry in my cornflakes, because now no one has the courage to try again.

 

Well, scratch that. Not no one.

 

https://torment.inxi...ertainment.com/

 

Hope springs eternal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#330
shinobi602

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Speaking personally, what I like about the dialogue wheel is that I actually watch my character speak and say and do stuff.  Obviously this doesn't work as well if a player wishes much stronger control over the specifics of the response, but that I can actually enjoy seeing the responses play out.  With a full line of dialogue, I find I get stuff like this less often, and I do enjoy that sort of stuff.  I like watching the scene play out, which is also something that I do less of with full written responses.

 

In fact, for games like Alpha Protocol (which was even more condensed than anything BioWare has done, but is probably my personal favourite conversation system in any game) and Mass Effect, I often don't even play with subtitles on because I prefer to watch the scene play out.

 

A thousand times this. I always found myself focusing on reading the 6 or 7 full sentences in DAO and didn't enjoy that much at all.



#331
In Exile

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OK. But one fact is known, correct?

Games have a word/writing budget, even if the words are just text. But then, they have to also have a VA budget, if all the words are going to be voiced.

Unless the budget increases, more voicing = fewer words. It is more expensive to get an actor to speak a line than to have an intern type it into the dialogue database. Please note, that was not an argument against voiced NPCs (I love them, I've gotten so terribly used to them) and not even against the voiced PC -- just a statement of fact and reality.

And since you brought up Planescape Torment, well, there was dialogue that was so beautifully written (without voicing, but I still view whether it's going to be said or not a semi-independent variable), and it didn't sell well. It makes me cry in my cornflakes, because now no one has the courage to try again.

Well, scratch that. Not no one.

https://torment.inxi...ertainment.com/

Hope springs eternal.


I don't disagree that having VO for the PC means for cost for PC dialogue, but I actually think the tradeoff is in terms of NPC dialogue, not PC dialogue.

Well other than the "here are three choices that are worded different but are in substance and effect the same" which don't appear in VO games. But I think that's actually a waste of the word budget. To go back to the Viconia convo you posted earlier, I thought that getting rid of the first or second line using that surplus line elsewhere would have been better

#332
CybAnt1

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From time to time we have had people who enjoy being surprised by what the PC says. I think this is usually associated with the position that actual role-playing in a CRPG is conceptually impossible.
 

 

Can't match the way (some) people play in tabletop. There is no human DM to turn to you and ask, "OK. So you've asked to parley with the fire giants. What are you going to say to them?"

 

"[player says what they are going to say here]" "[DM makes a decision whether they will let player pass, or decides if the fire giants will attack anyway."]

 

So it strikes me as something that you have to jigger with to instantiate in a computer game. Not the only thing, of course. For a long time, the problem was either ignored (in dungeon crawlers without dialogue) or dealt with very simply (like the very first keyword-based systems).

 

I take the observation that since day one you have had to choose from the options provided for you by writers. Of course that's the case. Maybe some day we can work out a speech recognition type system into CRPGs and do things a bit differently. I think that's well in the future.

 

I think the only question is then, how well enabled are you to choose which options they have provided for you. And I admit not fully understanding any arguments - other than ones of technical difficulty from the developers, which I accept - as to why it's not a good idea to understand as much as possible the options before you before you select one. Which would include knowledge of tone, and knowledge of words.


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#333
AlanC9

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Unless the budget increases, more voicing = fewer words. It is more expensive to get an actor to speak a line than to have an intern type it into the dialogue database. Please note, that was not an argument against voiced NPCs (I love them, I've gotten so terribly used to them) and not even against the voiced PC -- just a statement of fact and reality.
 


True. But also true about combat animations. And 3D environments. And a plot. Just about every aspect of a game could be done cheaper if one wanted to make such a tradeoff.

#334
CybAnt1

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Again, I'm merely pointing out the tradeoff, not weighing where I fall (on that particular trade).

 

It is possible we could have more romances in each game if the romance dialogue wasn't voiced. This has been a point of contention in other threads. Since the finitude of romance options leads in to other debates about .... 'representation'.

 

On the other hand, people would probably - maybe especially - prefer romances, of all things, to have voiced exchange. (That would include me).

 

It has been frequently noted that one problem with American politics everybody wants lower taxes and more government spending, and I guess the main point is remembering the tradeoffs involved. You can't have both, or too much of both, without creating a third problem (huge deficits and debt).

 

It's just that in the non-knowledge knowledge-problem I'm not willing to take the exact trade-off we have now, when that trade-off can be lessened and has solutions (including existent examples.)



#335
AlanC9

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I think the only question is then, how well enabled are you to choose which options they have provided for you. And I admit not fully understanding any arguments - other than ones of technical difficulty from the developers, which I accept - as to why it's not a good idea to understand as much as possible the options before you before you select one. Which would include knowledge of tone, and knowledge of words.


For me "as much as possible" is the wrong criterion. Once I've got as much information as I need to pick the line I want, more information about the line isn't of any use. So reading the whole line imposes costs without providing benefits.

#336
CybAnt1

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And that, I guess, would constitute the fundamental point of disagreement between you and me. :) And inExile, and .... well, whomever else.

 

The tone icon and the paraphrase are not enough information. They're not. Not for me. BTW, a portion of the line might be enough. 25%? This will get us into a different area of inquiry and investigation.

 

If given the choice between having to select what limited options writers have written, or merely have to infer it, I will take the process of selection.



#337
Bond

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And that, I guess, would constitute the fundamental point of disagreement between you and me. :) And inExile, and .... well, whomever else.

 

The tone icon and the paraphrase are not enough information. They're not. Not for me. BTW, a portion of the line might be enough. 25%? This will get us into a different area of inquiry and investigation.

 

If given the choice between having to select what limited options writers have written, or merely have to infer it, I will take the process of selection.

We get it, but you do understand that there is no way they change the wheel and paraphrases for DAI right ? Also i will find it incredibly annoying and frustrating to read 3 sentences and then hear them repeated for another 20 seconds. If it is done like in Wolf or Deus Ex where you just set the tone and listen to your character - yes i am all for it. But having 3 sentences written out for you wont happen anymore in RPG's cause characters are voiced and reading then hearing the same thing is kind of pointless.



#338
CybAnt1

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We get it, but you do understand that there is no way they change the wheel and paraphrases for DAI right ? (1) Also i will find it incredibly annoying and frustrating to read 3 sentences and then hear them repeated for another 20 seconds.(2)  If it is done like in Wolf or Deus Ex where you just set the tone and listen to your character - yes i am all for it. But having 3 sentences written out for you wont happen anymore in RPG's cause characters are voiced and reading then hearing the same thing is kind of pointless. (3)

 

(1) I know that they've said so. So you are welcome to remind me, but that said, it doesn't provide me with additional information. 

(2) annoying and frustrating for you, but maybe not for other people. This is why it may really be a case where a toggle is the best solution, but... yes, see (1)

(3) it's weird what people do and not consider pointless. I guess I might find turning off all icons pointless, but you want it. BTW, up until this point, I wasn't going to comment on what you want, but since ...

 

You know, we really are going to have to accept this fundamental proposition. People are different. And so they are not going to agree on what is pointless or not. :) I know it is to you. It isn't to me, or Ieldra, or Sylvius, or .......... So I appreciate you expressing your feelings, but if you think I have changed my mind on this because of it, no.


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#339
Bond

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(1) I know that they've said so. So you are welcome to remind me, but that said, it doesn't provide me with additional information. 

(2) annoying and frustrating for you, but maybe not for other people. This is why it may really be a case where a toggle is the best solution, but... yes, see (1)

(3) it's weird what people do and not consider pointless. I guess I might find turning off all icons pointless, but you want it. BTW, up until this point, I wasn't going to comment on what you want, but since ...

 

You know, we really are going to have to accept this fundamental proposition. People are different. And so they are not going to agree on what is pointless or not. :) I know it is to you. It isn't to me, or Ieldra, or Sylvius, or .......... So I appreciate you expressing your feelings, but if you think I have changed my mind on this because of it, no.

I am not trying to change your mind. I am just pretty sure no one will give the whole line of the character anymore. I think it will be one of those features that remain in the past, because of the VO characters and for no other reason.

But i am with you on the Deus Ex approach of  these things. 



#340
In Exile

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For me "as much as possible" is the wrong criterion. Once I've got as much information as I need to pick the line I want, more information about the line isn't of any use. So reading the whole line imposes costs without providing benefits.


I'm not sure I'd agree with you here. I mean, I agree with your general idea - that I only need enough information to make up my mind - buy I'm not sure I'd agree with the idea that more information isn't better.

To put it another way I might change my mind about whether a line really captures my intent based on the gist if I see the full text later.

Aggressive/direct lines in DA2 are a good example because they tend to be a bit out there sometimes so a clear idea of their content delivery would make me more likely to pick them since they're more likely to be out of character and I need a higher threshold of certainty to be sure.

Whereas with say sarcastic douchebag lines I pretty know they fit based on their status.

#341
brightblueink

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You're not supposed to know how people are going to react to what you say. And I don't see how knowing the tone is at all helpful in predicting NPC responses.

I don't think you really understand my point. I'm not saying that I want to be able to predict how the character responds to my lines. But the thing is, usually when that sort of thing happens, it's not a case of "The Warden is trying to be friendly, but Leliana thinks they're being flirty." (Or "The Warden means to be sarcastic but Alistair is sensitive about the subject" or anything else along those lines). It's "The line is written so that the Warden is meaning to be flirty, Leliana naturally picks up on that and responds in kind, but the PLAYER thought it was only mean to be friendly."

 

Not having voice acting hides better that you're misunderstanding the lines, because you can just assume your Warden "didn't mean it that way" but sometimes I've found it pretty clear that the character is responding to a CLEAR tone that the Warden had--a tone that's not always obvious just by reading the line alone to the player.

 

As an aside to other points of the conversations, I think paraphrases can be done without being too confusing and I'm hoping they've figured this out in Inquisition. For an example of games with paraphrased dialogue that really easily conveys what you're going to pick, I'd point to Telltale's recent games like The Walking Dead and The Wolf Among Us. Here's an example. Sometimes it's the full line (or the beginning of the line), sometimes it's a paraphrase, and there's even times where the choice represents what the character is thinking and WANTS to say, but can't either because they get interrupted or because they know they're not in a position to say it. For example, this scene. I think the player here chose the silent option, but you get the same result if you choose to curse the cop out, instead.

 

Now, of course, I'm not saying Bioware should just copy Telltale's system. For one, Telltale's characters are usually more established characters in their own right than just a player's avatar to roleplay, so you'd have to change it to allow for more player agency. But I think that Telltale's system proves a few misconceptions about the dialogue in these sorts of games wrong that can be helpful when writing the games.

 

For one thing, it shows that you can be more redundant with the words on the screen and the voiced dialogue. It's the strong voice acting and direction in their games that carries the line, even though it's often partially or completely the choice you just made. Bioware has a similar pool of talented directors and actors, so I'm pretty confident they could pull it off. I'm glad to hear they're not being as concerned about repeating words in Inquisition, but I think they could take it even further and have the paraphrase be an outright shortened version of the line, or the beginning of a line.

 

For another, I think it shows that maybe the best way to look at the paraphrases is to think of them as what the character is thinking right in that moment, and the spoken line is them articulating it--sometimes verbatim, sometimes more eloquently once they've had a moment to figure out how best to say it. So it doesn't have to be "these lines would sound natural spoken out loud together."

 

That being said, I'm not saying that Telltale always avoids confusion. Recently there was the infamous "[Glass him]" paraphrase--a lot of people somehow thought that meant "be nice and pour him a drink" but what it actually did was have the main character smash a drinking glass over his head. If The Wolf Among Us had a tone icon--like, say, the crossed swords--it probably would've been MUCH more clearer what that actually meant.

 

So to sum up--paraphrasing isn't necessarily bad. And the tone icons are definitely useful. The main problem is just making sure that two things are communicated clearly somehow in the game--what the paraphrases actually mean (which can be accomplished by using short, clear phrases taken from the line itself or that are clear gut reactions ("I'm hungry" isn't a bad example in DA2 I guess?)), and that the icons are only indicating the PC's tone and not necesarrily the outcome (which could probably be shown clearly early on in the game by making sure that there's some examples of NPCs either misunderstanding or reacting poorly to any of the tones--even the diplomatic one, if they feel they're just using false flattery or not proposing a good solution).

 

Luckily based on what the staff is saying I think they already have been thinking about most of this, so I'm honestly not too worried.


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#342
Sylvius the Mad

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It's not, because I don't. The tone is not something I choose - it comes paired with the line. I don't choose the tone any more than I choose the actual literal content of the line. I choose between literal contents of the line. I also have to choose between tones, except the tones are hidden. 

But your position isn't supported without the implicit assumptions you make about the predictability of human behaviour.



#343
Sylvius the Mad

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I don't think you really understand my point. I'm not saying that I want to be able to predict how the character responds to my lines. But the thing is, usually when that sort of thing happens, it's not a case of "The Warden is trying to be friendly, but Leliana thinks they're being flirty." (Or "The Warden means to be sarcastic but Alistair is sensitive about the subject" or anything else along those lines). It's "The line is written so that the Warden is meaning to be flirty, Leliana naturally picks up on that and responds in kind, but the PLAYER thought it was only mean to be friendly."

There is no difference between those two things unless you assume that the intent of the writers exists somehow within the line.

 

And I don't think it does.  The line is the same either way.  But if you interpret the line as I do, then the game doesn't break.  Only if you insist on believing that the writers' intent exists does the problem arise.

 

Don't do that, and the problem goes away.

Not having voice acting hides better that you're misunderstanding the lines, because you can just assume your Warden "didn't mean it that way" but sometimes I've found it pretty clear that the character is responding to a CLEAR tone that the Warden had--a tone that's not always obvious just by reading the line alone to the player.

I have no evidence at all that tone creates such predictable responses in others.  In my experience, a person's reaction to a spoken line has little or nothing to do with the tone used.  Sometimes they believe it does, but they're often incorrect about the speaker's intent when they use tone to inform their interpretation.

 

No matter how a line is delivered, the NPC's reaction is possibly sensical.  You may not know why or how, because you lack exhaustive knowledge of the NPC's mind.  Only by reading the NPC's mind can you reasonably claim that you know his or her reaction was in response to a specific tone.

 

You have effectively no knowledge about the minds of others.



#344
CybAnt1

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For one thing, it shows that you can be more redundant with the words on the screen and the voiced dialogue. It's the strong voice acting and direction in their games that carries the line, even though it's often partially or completely the choice you just made. Bioware has a similar pool of talented directors and actors, so I'm pretty confident they could pull it off. I'm glad to hear they're not being as concerned about repeating words in Inquisition, but I think they could take it even further and have the paraphrase be an outright shortened version of the line, or the beginning of a line.

 

 

Probably because I was hearing what I wanted to hear (wouldn't be the first time), I thought for a while what I have put in bold from your message was, in fact, exactly what they were doing in DA:I. Guess I was wrong. That the paraphrase would in fact, be around 20-25% of the line that follows. Because, BTW, I was quite ready to be happy with that. I'm not asking for seeing the FULL line before it is spoken. "too much screen real estate". I thought we were getting a "significant portion". I think that's all DX:HR gives you -- as well. 



#345
AlanC9

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But your position isn't supported without the implicit assumptions you make about the predictability of human behaviour.


OK. Let's make that assumption explicit, then

#346
brightblueink

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I have no evidence at all that tone creates such predictable responses in others.  In my experience, a person's reaction to a spoken line has little or nothing to do with the tone used.  Sometimes they believe it does, but they're often incorrect about the speaker's intent when they use tone to inform their interpretation.

Wait, really?

 

So if someone came up to you and said, in a cheerful tone, "Boy, you look really nice to day!" you'd have the same exact reaction as if they came up to you and said, with a roll of their eyes and a voice dripping in sarcasm, "BOY, you look really nice today."?

 

Because I don't know about you but in my experience, human beings use their tone and body language to convey a lot. In fact I've heard something like 80% of communication is non-verbal. It's the reason why the characters in the game are animated to do things like crossing their arms, shaking their head, waving their arms around and the like. Because if they had the character stare straight at you, unmoving, and voiced by a text-to-speech program as opposed to a voice actor, you'd lose a lot about the context of a scene.

 

I mean, really, without the exaggerated, suggestive tone in Alistair's voice--"Have youuuu ever licked a lampost in winter?"--who's to say if he's asking if you're a virgin? He could've just said "Have you ever licked a lampost in winter?" because he saw someone try it once and wanted to know how gullible the Warden was.


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#347
Fortlowe

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I've been at the tone toggle idea for quite a while. Maybe it'll happen when the old hardware is no longer supported. Probably not. Anyways, in case anyone is interested, here's how the idea was originally presented:

http://social.biowar...ndex/14509639/3

I think it's workable, but I have no illusions. It's far more than a notion and two days of work won't do the trick. It's a fundamentally more intricate system that only uses the same wheel interface. Below that face is a lot resources. It would require gobs of time, memory, VO and cinematic work to pull of and even then troubleshooting it would be a nightmare. Even still, I think it's a worthy goal to pursue.
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#348
Sylvius the Mad

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OK. Let's make that assumption explicit, then

In Exile thinks there is some necessary connection between the tone of a spoken line and the reactions that line triggers in others.

 

This runs directly contrary to my experience.  As such, I do not think there is such a connection.



#349
Sylvius the Mad

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Wait, really?

 

So if someone came up to you and said, in a cheerful tone, "Boy, you look really nice to day!" you'd have the same exact reaction as if they came up to you and said, with a roll of their eyes and a voice dripping in sarcasm, "BOY, you look really nice today."?

Probably not.  But that's not what I'm claiming.  I'm claiming that there is no reaction I could have which would cause you to think that you'd said the line differently.  No matter what my reaction, you never know enough about me to know whether I'm reacting to you or why.

I mean, really, without the exaggerated, suggestive tone in Alistair's voice--"Have youuuu ever licked a lampost in winter?"--who's to say if he's asking if you're a virgin? He could've just said "Have you ever licked a lampost in winter?" because he saw someone try it once and wanted to know how gullible the Warden was.

I actually thought he was asking a literal question.  I got nothing from his tone.



#350
AlanC9

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I actually thought he was asking a literal question. I got nothing from his tone.


You do realize that being unable to read tone is a personal disability, right?

 

Edit: I should also point out that the actor was using that tone at the specific direction of the writer. VO notes are visible in the toolset.

 

Perhaps Bio ought to be displaying tone icons when NPCs speak?