406 réponses à ce sujet

[TheLittleBird]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

TheLittleBird wrote...

But that open interpretation could get the player a different outcome than desired (within the same sentence, I mean). I've had some occasions on which I would something I perceived as nice, but would be interpreted otherwise by the characters on the screen. And that's a little off-putting.

I don't find that off-putting at all, because I don't expect to be able to predict people's reactions to what I say.

No, what I mean (and apology if it wasn't all that clear from my previous comment) is that I can't really tell if the game sees the dialogue option I pick as sarcastic or angry in tone.

[addiction21]

TheLittleBird you are in for a ride if you go down that rabbit hole with Sylvius.

[TheLittleBird]

addiction21 wrote...

TheLittleBird you are in for a ride if you go down that rabbit hole with Sylvius.

Thanks for the heads-up
But I'm curious about what he has to say, if what you say is true

[Wulfram]

So long as there's only 3 dialogue choices, there's always going to be a trade off between letting those choices cover a breadth of personalities, and making them sound plausible if the player is jumping between them.

This is exacerbated by the tendency for the moments when you want to pick the red angry choice likely being the most angry of the angry choices.

I don't think there's any way around this, though good voice acting and writing can help smooth things a bit.

[CybAnt1]

But the problem here is that while what you are saying is true, they have limited amount of options to write in a video game and are not able to truly project the full range of human expression in each discussion.

How about not offering the same 3 options each time? They could offer 3 different options, offering 3 different emotional ranges, depending on the situation.

No increased VA budget - it's still just recording 3 lines. 

Let's say in situation 1, the three voiced options are Angry, Diplomatic, and Sarcastic.
In situation 2, they might be Sad, Aggressive, and Remorseful. 
In situation 3, they might be Fearful, Anxious, or Peaceful. 

Get my point? I agree this blows away "dominant tone," but offers the players a different range of options based on the situation, and doesn't increase the VA budget - they're still recording 3 lines.

(P.S. I get the sense what I just suggested for DAI may be exactly what they're doing, which may be why I brought it up.)

[Bond]

Another thing that worries a lot is the size of all the dialogue. I mean in Origins, with being mute, your character can speak as much as he wants to, but now with all the voice actors, and all the races, and stuff, we could easily end up with equal number of lines comparing to DA 2, or even fewer. Voicing so many protagonists can be troublesome and the fact that they still "think about it" is scary. I understand that voicing is one of the last part of developing the game, but 8 months prior release, thinking about how to voice main protagonists is no good.

Bioware, trying to please newcomers and trying to simplify things for the mass audience does you no favours. If it was so, Dragon Age 2 would be a great success. I understand you want to please all, but sometimes you have to make a decision. Like in your virtual worlds. Do i please people who want gameplay exclusively and care little for the dialogue or i continue to provide for the core fanbase. I assure you no one will be overwhelmed if there is an rich and expansive dialogue, because people who focus on gameplay, skip it all the same.

You know way better than me what DAII reaction was, and you show it by improving on a lot of different gameplay elements. But there are many games with amazing gameplay, do not forget what sets you apart and make you unique. The characters, conversations, lore, atmospere etc.

And mind you, here are 90% people are mad fans of your work and want you to succeed, cause they want to spent money on quality and you provide quality. We as fans, are grateful and when we bought DAII, most of us were not entirely happy, yet we return and continue to support you, looking for the next installement. But the people you try to "invite" to the franchaise, are not your core buyers. They are people who might buy your next product, might not, cause they liked the game, but didnt care that much, or found the game boring or w/e. At least do not hurt the loyal bioware fans, when trying to bring in new crowds. 

Bottom line is : When you try to be on two chairs, you will probably find yourself on the ground. Improving some gameplay elements, but maintaining the simplicity of the dialogue is trying to appeal to all audiences, which is not exactly bad thing, but sometimes you need to follow your gut and make a decision. Just like in DA.

Modifié par LoyalFan, 17 février 2014 - 10:32 .

[AlanC9]

Don't assume that it's only the newcomers who prefer a voiced protagonist.

[Bond]

Lets agree to disagree. You cant become better, when you are not evolving. If everything evolves, but dialogue system doesnt, that is some serious disbalance. Its like those big dudes with tiny legs.

Modifié par LoyalFan, 17 février 2014 - 10:28 .

[CybAnt1]

I'm not against a voiced protagonist.

I am against not being able to or allowed to see what my PC is going to say before they say it.

The system IS evolving. They're keeping the wheel plus voiced. But it looks like they ARE going to reinvent the wheel.

It's going to change. A lot of us are wondering how exactly, to be sure. Something to do with offering more possible reactions. 

(plus tooltips with more full-text for the paraphrases)

So far, sounds good to me.

Modifié par CybAnt1, 17 février 2014 - 10:30 .

[Bond]

Yes, i understand you want to see the whole sentence.But i am not convinced that the system is evolving cause, Mike Laidlaw said it plain and simple "Writing style is very similar to DAII". Before that he said that the icons on wheel are back (dream come true for three year olds) Now by typing this i am even more scared cause its not like the "dialogue is similar", but the whole "writing" is "very" similar to DAII. Might as well hope for darn good gameplay, cause otherwise...

Modifié par LoyalFan, 17 février 2014 - 10:40 .

[Wothen]

My problem with the wheel is the extreme answers
You either have to be a naive saint, a sarcastic clown who never takes things seriously or a total douchebag
In the case of mass effect 3 its just the naive saint and douchebag which made things a whole lot worse

Modifié par Wothen, 17 février 2014 - 10:55 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

TheLittleBird wrote...

No, what I mean (and apology if it wasn't all that clear from my previous comment) is that I can't really tell if the game sees the dialogue option I pick as sarcastic or angry in tone.

And I'm saying it doesn't matter what tone the game thinks is being used, because the tone makes no material difference.

[CybAnt1]

LF, there seem to be some folk here who think if you use icons once, you have to use icons all the time. If you tonally mark one statement, you need to tonally mark everything.

To me, that seems like bull****, but what can I tell you. Apparently, once you use icons for some things, and tonal markers for some things, you must use them for everything. Constantly.

Why? Well, consistency! Triple A game! Some other bizarre reason.

It makes no sense to me either.

CybAnt, where is the store? -- LoyalFan asks.
LoyalFan, it's just a few houses down the road -- answers CybAnt.

Did CybAnt nswer in a way that was Angry, Diplomatic, or Sarcastic? How about it was just a declarative sentence without any real emotional tone?

Human beings often use those kind of sentences. Not everything needs tonal marking. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 17 février 2014 - 11:00 .

[TheLittleBird]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

TheLittleBird wrote...

No, what I mean (and apology if it wasn't all that clear from my previous comment) is that I can't really tell if the game sees the dialogue option I pick as sarcastic or angry in tone.

And I'm saying it doesn't matter what tone the game thinks is being used, because the tone makes no material difference.

Okay, let's just agree to disagree here.

[Bond]

Wothen wrote...

My problem with the wheel is the extreme answers
You either have to be a naive saint, a sarcastic clown who never takes things seriously or a total douchebag
In the case of mass effect 3 its just the naive saint and douchebag which made things a whole lot worse

And yet i think ME3 dialogue is better because:

1. You are put in circumstances to judge specific thing or person. Traynor (do you want her treating you like best buddy, or be more professional), the turian who held secret, the quarians who almost killed you, this is the end of the trilogy, either you let things be more calm, or you release the ****storm. Game was intense, battle after battle and it fitted more the plot, to be this way. You were with your best buddies you knew the threat, you know the story, you just need to see continue. Another example is Wrex on Salarian Planet, either you calm everyone or let wrex be his angry, ugly, bad ass self. It made more sense. You were more the judge and witness of things that happen, rather than exploring stuff. That was the tone of the game. And even missions like buddy time with Garrus were executed good. 

2. Add to that the mouse interactions, during conversations, this adds a whole lot the story telling for me. You can something nice to calm someone, but if you feel really close to them you will go ahead and hug him, which will result in more dialogue for example. Or different relationships between characters.

3. Shepard sees the finish line, halucinations/dreams w/e start, earth is lost and so on. He speak to a lot of people asking for help and must listen to their excuses,failures and accusations. The sensible options here, apart for investigating further on the subject is to be calm and responsive or aggresive and unnerving. Plus you are commander and when you speak to someone apart from companions, you must be in a yes/no mode, because you can not be used as chit-chat person by anyone, cause you are on your ship, with your crew and on your own terms. You know most of the people and there is not much to say anymore. 

4. Last but not least, mass effect3 improved over me2 conversations with more interactions plus it added better paragon/renegade meter. And do not get me wrong me  series could of done better job and i think the team already does it for the next installement. And i am quite positive that they will improve on this.

Modifié par LoyalFan, 17 février 2014 - 11:47 .

[Mirrman70]

Just to throw this out here... does anybody here remember that DA2 was rushed out (for a bioware game) and that they have said that they regretted that decision? or that they delayed this game's release so that they could add more options such as race? I find the fact that they are bringing back multiple races a much more important thing than how they have us choose what to say. I feel alone in this entire forum for being able to accurately guess what hawke was going to say after half way through the first half of part 1.

[Fast Jimmy]

Mirrman70 wrote...

Just to throw this out here... does anybody here remember that DA2 was rushed out (for a bioware game) and that they have said that they regretted that decision? or that they delayed this game's release so that they could add more options such as race? I find the fact that they are bringing back multiple races a much more important thing than how they have us choose what to say. I feel alone in this entire forum for being able to accurately guess what hawke was going to say after half way through the first half of part 1.

The issue isn't that you could guess with some degree of accuracy.

The issue is that you have to guess at all.


EDIT: Also, the fact that DA2 managed to work at all is impressive, given how much the production was rushed and corners were cut.

Does that mean I get my $80 back for the Collector's Edition I bought, expecting a finished game? No? Then these concerns are totally valid. 

Yes, Bioware is spending more time than they had originally planned. They also did that with ME3, pushing the release date out six months. It didn't help the final product (an ending so poorly received, it had to be re-released). Until Bioware shows us something of how the dialogue system actually works in DA:I (outside of one discussion that consisted of one section of dialogue selection), there's still plenty to be concerned about.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 18 février 2014 - 12:05 .

[Mirrman70]

But with a voiced character brings problems to reading your entire response. Do they just do the full sentence? do they make you choose each line you say after everytime someone else says something? Do I really want to read multiple complete responses, decide which one I want and than watch the Inquisitor say that line word for word? I like the paraphrasing because it streamlines things, makes it quicker. I would rather an option to exit the conversation and then redo it if I hear a line I don't like. similar to how things were done in Swtor.

Edit: ME3 was 97% exquisite and while I feel they did mess up the original ending I felt Leviathan and Citadel made up for it.

Modifié par Mirrman70, 18 février 2014 - 12:08 .

[CybAnt1]

Do I really want to read multiple complete responses, decide which one I want and than watch the Inquisitor say that line word for word? 

I get some hate it and don't want to have to do it.

Get this: some don't want it to be quicker. WE WANT IT TO BE SLOWER. We are part of that Slow Food movement you've heard about. We like to TAKE OUR TIME. We ENJOY it. Life is in SAVORING of drawn out moments, not quick, instinctive actions. 

Perhaps some should get that there are folk who DO want to do it. Like me, or FJ, or Sylvius, or Ieldra, or maybe even LoyalFan. 

Tooltips as an option (like in DXHR): the win/win here. Nobody loses, everybody wins. 

And ... it is what they've said they're doing, so we really have nothing to argue about here. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 18 février 2014 - 12:16 .

[CybAnt1]

I feel alone in this entire forum for being able to accurately guess what hawke was going to say after half way through the first half of part 1.

You know, mirrman, I feel oddly alone in always being able to tell where the Warden was being sarcastic, or flirting, or angry and aggressive, without needing a tonal marker. Just by reading the line and thinking about the implied tone. The people who feel that DAO kept somehow fooling or tricking them on tone? Never happened to me. Honest. 

It's odd where our different abilities sometimes lie. IRL, not just among our characters. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 18 février 2014 - 12:14 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Mirrman70 wrote...

Do they just do the full sentence?

Yes.

do they make you choose each line you say after everytime someone else says something?

Yes.

Do I really want to read multiple complete responses, decide which one I want and than watch the Inquisitor say that line word for word?

To be honest, I'd probably skip the voiced delivery if that's how it worked, but I'd rather do that than be surprised by what my character is saying.

I would rather an option to exit the conversation and then redo it if I hear a line I don't like. similar to how things were done in Swtor.

That would be nice, but if we had that feature I would literally do that with every dialogue option so I could find out what they were before having to select them.

But I'd rather get to make my choice without knowing what effect it will have, and I'm not sure that system would give me that option.

[Fast Jimmy]

Mirrman70 wrote...

But with a voiced character brings problems to reading your entire response. Do they just do the full sentence? do they make you choose each line you say after everytime someone else says something? Do I really want to read multiple complete responses, decide which one I want and than watch the Inquisitor say that line word for word? I like the paraphrasing because it streamlines things, makes it quicker. I would rather an option to exit the conversation and then redo it if I hear a line I don't like. similar to how things were done in Swtor.

Edit: ME3 was 97% exquisite and while I feel they did mess up the original ending I felt Leviathan and Citadel made up for it.

Make ups don't count. They fix your product, but they still tarnish the quality of your development process, making everything you do suspect. If you have to redo your work, then that means people need to second guess the stuff you put out the first time.

DE:HR did this fine. Voiced protagonist, paraphrases for quick use, but also the ability to hover over an option and see the full text of the line that your character would say.


Bioware has said they won't do that. 

[CybAnt1]

Yeah, here's where we are.

Bio: No, you won't get the whole line from a tooltip like DE:HR. Yes, you will see "a significant portion" of it.

I guess all we need is the operational definition of "significant". 25%? 50%? 75%? (The paraphrase itself may be close to 25%.)

[Sjofn]

I thought the three tones provided and the lack of keeping a "jerk score" like ME 1 & 2 did went a long way towards making Hawke feel more like "mine" than Shepard ever did. More tones would be good, though. They flirted with this a little bit in DA2 (purple wasn't always sarcastic, sometimes it would be "charming," red was usually "aggressive" but sometimes simply "direct," etc) and I hope it gets expanded on even more in DA:I.

The thing that I didn't like in DA2 was not being able to talk to my companions out in the world. I hated Varric being all HEY I NEED TO TALK TO YOU, having to go back to Kirkwall and go to the Hanged Man, and getting a three line conversation with him that absolutely did not need to take place in his "home."


edit: I also definitely do not need to see the entire dang line written out that is then read to me by my character. Having it written out is good when you have no voice (obviously), but when you do, it becomes redundant. Yes, sometimes the paraphrase you get totally sucks, but that just means they need to get better at paraphrasing, not spell everything out completely.

Modifié par Sjofn, 18 février 2014 - 12:32 .

[CybAnt1]

I don't just want to listen to what my character says. First I want to know what they're going to say, THEN hear it. 

For me, it's not redundant. I get why it may be for others. It isn't for me.