406 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

TheLittleBird wrote...

No, what I mean (and apology if it wasn't all that clear from my previous comment) is that I can't really tell if the game sees the dialogue option I pick as sarcastic or angry in tone.

And I'm saying it doesn't matter what tone the game thinks is being used, because the tone makes no material difference.

Not even to the NPCs reactions?

[Hiemoth]

CybAnt1 wrote...

But the problem here is that while what you are saying is true, they have limited amount of options to write in a video game and are not able to truly project the full range of human expression in each discussion.

How about not offering the same 3 options each time? They could offer 3 different options, offering 3 different emotional ranges, depending on the situation.

No increased VA budget - it's still just recording 3 lines. 

Let's say in situation 1, the three voiced options are Angry, Diplomatic, and Sarcastic.
In situation 2, they might be Sad, Aggressive, and Remorseful. 
In situation 3, they might be Fearful, Anxious, or Peaceful. 

Get my point? I agree this blows away "dominant tone," but offers the players a different range of options based on the situation, and doesn't increase the VA budget - they're still recording 3 lines.

(P.S. I get the sense what I just suggested for DAI may be exactly what they're doing, which may be why I brought it up.)

I don't know which direction they are going to go with DAI, so I cannot comment on that. However, while I do understand where your suggestion is coming from, I don't consider it as perfect solution. Is assume that one of the reasons they settled for three tones, or actually two sets of three tones, is that it is easy for the player to understand what they are choosing at each situation. And let us be honest in this, the range of choices wasn't that much smaller, if at all, from the tones of choices in DAO, but that is another discussion.

Now if we had a situation where we had six or more sets of three tones, which would seem to be what you are pushing for, it will be really difficult to actualize effciently and in a manner that does not constantly break the flow of the dialogue. It would need over twenty tone indicators and a way to set them clearly a part of each other and they would still need to be bundled together so that the uppermost choice is somewhat consistant in each dialogue choice etc., otherwise the amount of complaints about misunderstanding the dialogue choices will explode to a range which will make the current complaints seem minor.

Finally, I would argue that while it wouldn't necessary increase the word budget, it would complicate it mightily as each dialogue would need to be a completely new design and yet flow similarly than before.

[AlanC9]

CybAnt1 wrote...

You know, mirrman, I feel oddly alone in always being able to tell where the Warden was being sarcastic, or flirting, or angry and aggressive, without needing a tonal marker. Just by reading the line and thinking about the implied tone. The people who feel that DAO kept somehow fooling or tricking them on tone? Never happened to me. Honest. 

We sometimes talk like these malfunctions happen more often than they do. I had maybe three places in all of DAO where the NPC reactions didn't make sense for the tone I thought the Warden was using.

OTOH, I only had three instances in the whole ME series where I picked the wrong option from the paraphrase, for whatever that's worth.

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 février 2014 - 02:15 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

And I'm saying it doesn't matter what tone the game thinks is being used, because the tone makes no material difference.

Not even to the NPCs reactions?

The NPC reactions are fixed.  Nothing changes those.

And since I see no necessary and predictable relationship between the tone and the reaction, the reaction wouldn't matter no matter what it was.

Moreover, I'm terrible at guessing what tone the writers intend.  So if the tone did actually make a difference, I'd probably see that as a bad thing.

[CybAnt1]

I don't know which direction they are going to go with DAI, so I cannot comment on that. 

I do. BTW, it appears what you're fretting about them doing, they are doing.

I love it when that happens. 

http://dragonage.wik..._Dragon_Age_III

No, it's not separate. We term the dialogue wheel which has tone choices to be the "tone wheel" and the dialogue wheel which has action choices to be the "action wheel". In the former your choices are mainly roleplaying... you're deciding how to say something, or what topic to address, but you're not doing anything. In the latter your choices are what to do about something (or expressing an opinion which doesn't involve tone).

[/i]In DA2, options on the choice wheel had a single paraphrase but three different spoken lines which varied based on the player character's dominant tone. As I mentioned previously, this made it difficult to come up with a paraphrase for all three (aside from being fairly expensive, wordcount-wise). While the answer could have been to paraphrase each line separately, in the end we decided the content was better used elsewhere.

[/i]In DA3, we are adding the "reaction wheel" to the previous two categories. This covers any situation where an emotional response is called for, where the three tones don't cover the needed territory (sadness, shock, rage... or just being stoic if one prefers), but we haven't shown it yet nor will I discuss it much.[/i]But those are the three basic dialogue wheels with which we work, and the terms are specific to us writers. They're not ones you need to use. From the perspective of the player, one dialogue wheel is the same as any other.[/i]

-- Lord Gaider
[end]

The way I parse this, the "reaction wheel" will offer a lot of emotional states, >3.

Granted, for obvious reasons, there are details here Lord Gaider can't yet disclose. 

I am happy. You can continue worrying. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 18 février 2014 - 02:35 .

[CybAnt1]

OTOH, I only had three instances in the whole ME series where I picked the wrong option from the paraphrase, for whatever that's worth.

I know you talked about your ME moment where your Shepard did something 180 degrees opposite to what you were expecting. 

I never had that. It was never like, wow, this was completely opposite to what I was expecting.

On the other hand, Hawke did give me a lot of "Huh?" "WTF?" and "Really?" moments. Maybe only 45 degrees off from what I was expecting. But enough to feel perplexing. 

[jsachun]

I for one think the Mass Effect Ring Dialogue is stupid and anti immersion.

[wolfhowwl]

Agent Sambora tweeted...
Will we still have investigate options as well as neutral dialogue choice?

Mike Laidlaw tweeted...
Writing style is very similar to DAII.

Damn.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 18 février 2014 - 03:55 .

[byeshoe]

wolfhowwwl..^ That's exactly what I said about them using the "icons." it is very handholding in my opinion...
i did'nt like the overall dialouge in DA2 x) when he saids it'll be similar, I'm hoping the way the choice of words are placed on the wheel, (which goes round and round) is what he means

Modifié par Girlgoten, 18 février 2014 - 03:57 .

[Hiemoth]

CybAnt1 wrote...

I don't know which direction they are going to go with DAI, so I cannot comment on that. 

I do. BTW, it appears what you're fretting about them doing, they are doing.

I love it when that happens. 

http://dragonage.wik..._Dragon_Age_III

No, it's not separate. We term the dialogue wheel which has tone choices to be the "tone wheel" and the dialogue wheel which has action choices to be the "action wheel". In the former your choices are mainly roleplaying... you're deciding how to say something, or what topic to address, but you're not doing anything. In the latter your choices are what to do about something (or expressing an opinion which doesn't involve tone).

[/i]In DA2, options on the choice wheel had a single paraphrase but three different spoken lines which varied based on the player character's dominant tone. As I mentioned previously, this made it difficult to come up with a paraphrase for all three (aside from being fairly expensive, wordcount-wise). While the answer could have been to paraphrase each line separately, in the end we decided the content was better used elsewhere.

[/i]In DA3, we are adding the "reaction wheel" to the previous two categories. This covers any situation where an emotional response is called for, where the three tones don't cover the needed territory (sadness, shock, rage... or just being stoic if one prefers), but we haven't shown it yet nor will I discuss it much.[/i]But those are the three basic dialogue wheels with which we work, and the terms are specific to us writers. They're not ones you need to use. From the perspective of the player, one dialogue wheel is the same as any other.[/i]

-- Lord Gaider
[end]

The way I parse this, the "reaction wheel" will offer a lot of emotional states, >3.

Granted, for obvious reasons, there are details here Lord Gaider can't yet disclose. 

I am happy. You can continue worrying. 

And the thing you just quoted is their commentary on the reaction wheel, which I actually had already read about and was musing including in my initial response to you, but decided against because it is a different thing than the dialogue wheel and which is different from what I understood your initial commentary to be on. Although I am glad that I gave you reason to be happy, even though it seems to stem from us misunderstanding each other. I still hope, though, that you are able to continue your joyous state.

The very quote you just copypasted discusses the addition of the reaction wheel, which would take over from the dominant tone approach in DA2 and which is a change I actually look forward to. However, it does also specify that, at least from what I understood, that the reaction wheel would be an additional wheel to the choice wheel and basic dialogue wheel used in DA2. This would heavily indicate, at least to me, that the basic dialogue wheel would still be limited to something similar in DA2, with those two sets of three being the majority of dialogue choices. The reaction wheel, in turn, would be used in larger events and dictate what is the PCs reaction to them. However, I cannot for certain how they will do it and, if that quote was your big evidence, neither can you. They will be more specific about it when they will.

And by the way, I am not fretting about it, hope that doesn't take away any of your joy either. They are going to do what they are going to do and I will know what I think of it when I see the final product. My comment was simply to point out that I did not consider your suggestion as easy to execute as you portrayed to be.

[CybAnt1]

I still hope, though, that you are able to continue your joyous state.

As long as it appears to be the case that the Inquisitor has a range of >3 emotional states, I will be happy. 

If in fact, it's the same damn 3 emotional states repeating over and over again, just because I guess today's players have trouble memorizing the meaning of more than 3 icons :innocent: , then I will be sad.

Yes, I agree, H., I'm still not sure whether to be happy or sad, but the above set of statements seem to indicate we will be getting more than 3. Until I hear otherwise, I will remain happy. 

Incidentally, it has nothing to do with schadenfreude, just happiness that the Inquisitor will be more of a human being than 3-state-Hawke was. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 18 février 2014 - 05:05 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Glad they're going with DA2's style instead of going ass backwards with the lists.

Improve, don't just give up and stay stagnant.

[Xerxes52]

This is more of a controller issue rather than how dialogue is handled or written, but I hope the X button (Xbox 360) is still used to skip dialogue only, while the A button is used to make dialogue choices. In short, same as the last two games.

[The Elder King]

My major problems with DA2 system is the paraphrase system and the dominant tones. I'll wait and see the solution they came up with, and I'm glad they scrapped the dominan tone.
Another addition I'm waiting to see how it works is the the reaction wheel , which will let ius holds the PC's emotion.

[Hiemoth]

Xerxes52 wrote...

This is more of a controller issue rather than how dialogue is handled or written, but I hope the X button (Xbox 360) is still used to skip dialogue only, while the A button is used to make dialogue choices. In short, same as the last two games.

You know, I really hope this as well, especially as I am replaying through ME series at the moment. And the thing is, the problem is the same PC, where you use space to skip dialogue, but also choose from the dialogue wheel. It is absolutely infuriating to be skipping over dialogue and accidently choose a response because they, for some truly bizarre reason, decided to bind both actions to the same goddamn key.

[Hiemoth]

CybAnt1 wrote...

I still hope, though, that you are able to continue your joyous state.

As long as it appears to be the case that the Inquisitor has a range of >3 emotional states, I will be happy. 

If in fact, it's the same damn 3 emotional states repeating over and over again, just because I guess today's players have trouble memorizing the meaning of more than 3 icons :innocent: , then I will be sad.

Yes, I agree, H., I'm still not sure whether to be happy or sad, but the above set of statements seem to indicate we will be getting more than 3. Until I hear otherwise, I will remain happy. 

Incidentally, it has nothing to do with schadenfreude, just happiness that the Inquisitor will be more of a human being than 3-state-Hawke was. 

While I disagree that Hawke was a 3-state character, far from it actually, I do also welcome the evolution of the system and trying new things in developing and advancing their storytelling tools. As said, I actually look forward to the reaction wheel as i see it, properly implemented, as a good way to go forward from the dominant tone.

And I would not argue that the problem is the players remembering 3 icons, after all they remember 6 icons that are actualy used in DA2, but if we have a huge assortment of icons it will break the flow of the dialogue as it can very easily become confusing and uncertain if the icons are remembered correctly or if they mean what was thought. It's the same reason why they don't randomly draw dialogue wheel positions in ME and DA2, to help the player to know for certain at that moment what is the choice they are making. Breaking it up to a huge collection of icons would break the flow of the dialogue, which is the exact thing the dialogue wheel is implemented to help.

[CybAnt1]

And I would not argue that the problem is the players remembering 3 icons, after all they remember 6 icons that are actualy used in DA2, but if we have a huge assortment of icons it will break the flow of the dialogue as it can very easily become confusing 

Well, the 6 icons were really just variants on 3. 

Diplomatic and Helpful (light green/blue) (often called "Peaceful" here) were basically functionally and emotionally the same. 
Humorous and Charming (purple) (often called "Sarcastic" here) were likewise.
Aggressive and Direct (red) (often called "Angry" here) ... likewise.

No, H., what I am looking forward to is also seeing Sadness ... how about a Crying Face icon  ... that can be dark blue. Surprise/Shock ... that can be a surprised face  ... make that orange. And Fear/Terror ... well that can be a fearful face ... make that yellow.

See ... you can still remember them by colors, if not by always being in the same positions. And is that too hard to memorize? 

If all else fails ... here's an idea ... READ what's there next to the icon and get un-confused. It's FUN-DA-MENTAL.

[Bond]

    Bioware just needs to see Alpha Protocol dialogue system. I am not saying they should rip it off, but there sometimes you can have two options, sometimes 4-5, and not always same fixed nice, not nice, funny, but completely different feeling and emotions. If the inquisitor have 3 sentences, write one full in the wheel, summarizing those 3. When we read a whole sentence, which peraphrases whole three, we get the tone and the purpose of the line, no need to make everything fixed, in exact same way everytime you approach someone.
    The only good things about dialogue wheel in DAII is the investigate option, but because game was so rushed, they were rushed and you have to ask only ****** questions like, you are dalish? You are elve ? You are quinari ....
    In the wheel, in the middle where you plan to put the dumb icons, you can have just a color or different design choice, instead of icons, which would suit perfectly fable or other game, where everything is  more childish and fairy tale like. I understand everything should be more colourfull and appeal to the all audience, but even then, you will find yourself in dark cave, fighting some abominations and then you will enter dialogue bit, where you choose ****** icons, which will suit more iphone game when some little child must guess which icon represent certain feeling. That is uninspired and bad. Many successful RPG's which got great number of new fans like Deus Ex HR, Skyrim, Witcher 2, didnt have icons or dumbed down dialogue system and still many enjoyed them, without knowing much of the series.
     In the end i wanna see, imagine Mass Effect. Lets make it faire by talking about third one, just like inquisition is 3 in the series. Imagine with the already simplified dialogue system, which fans didnt like one bit, to have included additional dumb icons like  :innocent:   and so on. Imagine if renegade answer was some gun for example, and paragon was angel wings. If this was true, people would be pissed twice as much. I wrote a big post about Mass effect 3 conversations and why i think it suits the game to be with polarizing conversation options and only 2 choices, but in open world rpg game with dragons and mages and civil war. Please......

Modifié par LoyalFan, 18 février 2014 - 10:18 .

[Wulfram]

The Alpha Protocol system seems virtually identical to the DA2 system. A diplomatic/professional option, a sarcastic/suave option and an aggressive option. All in specific places. With occasional additional options, usually based on stuff done earlier.

The only difference is the lack of any sort of paraphrase, and of course the timer, but it doesn't seem you want that?

[Fast Jimmy]

Wulfram wrote...

The Alpha Protocol system seems virtually identical to the DA2 system. A diplomatic/professional option, a sarcastic/suave option and an aggressive option. All in specific places. With occasional additional options, usually based on stuff done earlier.

The only difference is the lack of any sort of paraphrase, and of course the timer, but it doesn't seem you want that?

Alpha Protocol also had a much more set protagonist than even DA2 had, let alone DA:O.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 18 février 2014 - 01:30 .

[3ntropy995]

How dare you question the undeniable brilliance of the dialogue wheel! All that text in my post Origins Dragon Age, no sir! I don't think so. I play RPG's to lead, not to read. I didn't pay some book club fee, I pre-ordered DAI. You're not actually supposed to know exactly what you're about to say in a conversation, speak before you think I always say, the best you need is some subtle hint/paraphrase that might or might not lead to the actual line of dialogue spoken. The same goes for choices as well. Think your about to incapacitate someone? Why not decapitate them!

You just want to rob me of my jaw dropping experiences which made Dragon Effect 2 err... Dragon Age 2 so superior!

Honestly there is no competition in my opinion, only the failure to give recognition where it is due, but they're just going to mush on anyway! What was wrong with text dialogue system? You knew exactly what you were about to say and that was the point of it.

LoyalFan wrote...

So, for DAI everything is perfect right ? Not really,

Nothing that a shiny coat of graphical paint and a action packed gameplay facelift can't fix!

Modifié par 3ntropy995, 18 février 2014 - 12:34 .

[Bond]

Wulfram wrote...

The Alpha Protocol system seems virtually identical to the DA2 system. A diplomatic/professional option, a sarcastic/suave option and an aggressive option. All in specific places. With occasional additional options, usually based on stuff done earlier.

The only difference is the lack of any sort of paraphrase, and of course the timer, but it doesn't seem you want that?

That is why i said, the should not copy-paste it. I mean the strong points of Alpha Protocol wheel, is availability of many different tones. And that will be saying the right thing, in the right time. Even if you do something in particular order it gives different result. I dont say put Professional and Suave to the DA wheel, but make it so that everything is not so automatic. You actually have to read and understand the situation instead of "Oh i like Merril, better be nice to her", or "Isabella is hardcore girl let me F##k her nasty, she will like it. Alpha protocol let you analyze the situation and take a decision, where Dragon Age 2 let you say things such: I quote :
1. I love you
2. I am hungry
3. Get out of here.

And because you react poorly to Alpha Protocol, i will go ahead and suggest learning from the best. The Wolf Among Us, while providing with little direct action-consequence, you can still choose your words carefully, and try different angles to get to your point. Design and interface wont work on DAII but it can be done on the dialogue wheel easily. 4 different answers, on the 4 edges in the wheel with no particular order. Almost one whole sentence or minimum of 5-6 words. On the top or the bottom of the wheel you can have investigate, or do some action. Or you just may as well put it again on the sides:
                                      
                        ask a companion(if present)

          1. Line                                   2. Line
                             
         investigate                               action if any

          3. Line                                  4. Line

                      Flirt(if available)(or take another action)

Mind you lines preferably can be spawned on random. And people who say origins had the lines from first to the last in particular order ( best to words) do not know what they are talking about. Origins had many occasions when the first line was so wrong to say, middle one was the best in the situation and the last one being just ok. 

Let me ask people here. Would you prefer the example above, the dragon age 2 method or give your own suggestion. I like my example cause it is clean, yet no so predictable, it is not so simple, yet not so confusing it will work interface wise and give more options for you to explore as  a player and try different approaches, because the lines are not nice/rude/sarcastic/frightened and so on, but are different lines for every encounter. Offcourse you will be able to still chose some nice thing to say or threaten, or be humouristic but not in every single encounter ! Origins did that, but instead it was a list.

Modifié par LoyalFan, 18 février 2014 - 12:59 .

[Dean_the_Young]

LoyalFan wrote...

Lets agree to disagree. You cant become better, when you are not evolving. If everything evolves, but dialogue system doesnt, that is some serious disbalance. Its like those big dudes with tiny legs.

Where does agree to disagree come in? You're simply wrong- there are older players who aren't newcomers who prefer voiced protagonists. Claiming differently isn't a difference of opinion, it's a factual inaccurancy.

And given how many times developers here have pointed out that the dialogue system isn't static, where do you get the impression that it is? 'Similar' is not synonymous with 'the same.'

[Bond]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LoyalFan wrote...

Lets agree to disagree. You cant become better, when you are not evolving. If everything evolves, but dialogue system doesnt, that is some serious disbalance. Its like those big dudes with tiny legs.

Where does agree to disagree come in? You're simply wrong- there are older players who aren't newcomers who prefer voiced protagonists. Claiming differently isn't a difference of opinion, it's a factual inaccurancy.

And given how many times developers here have pointed out that the dialogue system isn't static, where do you get the impression that it is? 'Similar' is not synonymous with 'the same.'

Dude, my bad. Ive read your post wrong and thought you were saying only newcomers want voiced protagonist, which in my opinion is far from truth. We stand together in this one, i as well want voiced protagonist as many old school bioware fans. I misread, appologies.

About the dialogue, they said it is very similar to DAII. This means, very few tweaks, at least in my book.

[CybAnt1]

What was wrong with text dialogue system? 

... It's not "Triple A rated."
... "Nobody else is still doing it." "Well, OK, nobody else not funded by Kickstarter." 
... "what you want to go backwards?"
... You mean I have to READ to pick an option?

I'm out. Anybody got anything else?

Oh yeah. "Doesn't work with a voiced protagonist." (Actually, there are many ways it could.)

Whatever. I'm not against the wheel, per se, I'm not against voiced protag. 

I am for more player control, dialogue/action options & choices, possible emotional states, and actually knowing what one's character is about to do. And I am unapologetically so. 

The cool thing is, Mike Laidlaw says he's heard fans like me, and is moving the game in that direction, so yes, I remain happy. Until we know more. Then I hope I don't get more sad.