406 réponses à ce sujet

[3ntropy995]

CybAnt1 wrote...


The cool thing is, Mike Laidlaw says he's heard fans like me, and is moving the game in that direction, so yes, I remain happy. Until we know more. Then I hope I don't get more sad. 

Mike Laidlaw might have heard, but he hasn't necessarily listened. After all the carnage about Dragon Age 2 had settled, he posted on the forums regarding the controversy and anger surrounding DA2. It started to sound all apologetic, but it was more of a justification for all the changes. He mentioned that he took notice of all the complaints, but never admitted that they were right. They are still proud as ever about DA2 and hellbent to include the changes of DA2.

As far as I know it was confirmed that the dialogue wheel will be implemented in DAI. I guess it's progress after all. So start that heavy metal and give me mindless action!

[Ieldra]

CybAnt1 wrote...

You know, mirrman, I feel oddly alone in always being able to tell where the Warden was being sarcastic, or flirting, or angry and aggressive, without needing a tonal marker. Just by reading the line and thinking about the implied tone. The people who feel that DAO kept somehow fooling or tricking them on tone? Never happened to me. Honest. 

Me neither. Think of the Warden's "royal bastard" line to Alistair, which people bring up as an example. Before I read it on the forum, the idea that anyone could conceivable not recognize this as a wordplay and a joke never occurred to me. And I'm not even a native speaker.

Maybe we're not stupid enough for these games.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 février 2014 - 02:20 .

[The Elder King]

While I prefer DAO system, and I heavily dislike paraphrases, I wonder how the dialogue system is related to the combat.
And lol at the heavy metal thing. Wasn't DAO that was marketed with it?

[addiction21]

3ntropy995 wrote...

So start that heavy metal and give me mindless action!

Like this  ?

Modifié par addiction21, 18 février 2014 - 02:29 .

[Bond]

I think this singular game mechanic will be crucial for the whole bioware company and staff. I mean there are people losing faith in the franchaise and company capabilities after DA 2 and SWTOR. I know developers are aware of that because of the nice communication they have with the fans for this particular DA installement. Now you have build confidence because a lot of fans are willing to give the game another shot after the nice presentations and promises
But if again fans feel betrayed when the game is released and see for example another simple, plain, uninspired dialogue system or some other crucial game mechanic, they might not be able to give you another shot.

[CybAnt1]

Mike Laidlaw might have heard, but he hasn't necessarily listened. 

Not sure. He may have. This sounds very good to my ears. 

This article, besides discussing the return of more tactical combat (yay), also discusses the dialogue system. 

http://www.polygon.c...eps-and-greater

Inquisition[/i] will also include a few tweaks to the dialogue system. While selecting dialogue options, players will be able to see a clear explanation of action what a dialogue choice may result in. Players won't have to rely just on the paraphrasing of spoken dialogue between their inquisitor and a follower or non-player character. Players can also back out of conversations they don't feel like engaging in, should they errantly interact with an NPC.

[end]

What exactly what I've bolded there means - we still have to wait and see.

From other statements, as I've said, it looks like while you may not be able to get the full line the Quiz (I'm starting to grow fond on that abbreviation) is about to say, you will see a "significant portion" of it, on a tooltip generated from the paraphrase. 

[3ntropy995]

LoyalFan wrote...

I think this singular game mechanic will be crucial for the whole bioware company and staff. I mean there are people losing faith in the franchaise and company capabilities after DA 2 and SWTOR. I know developers are aware of that because of the nice communication they have with the fans for this particular DA installement. Now you have build confidence because a lot of fans are willing to give the game another shot after the nice presentations and promises
But if again fans feel betrayed when the game is released and see for example another simple, plain, uninspired dialogue system or some other crucial game mechanic, they might not be able to give you another shot.

I certainly won't give them the benefit of the doubt again. The dialogue wheel on it's own(although already a big deal in my eyes) might not be a reason to doubt them yet. Looking at the gameplay footage, I am honestly not excited about this.

addiction21 wrote...


Like this  ?

That's what I'm talking about:P Looks a bit too fan made to be official though....Too controversial.

[The Elder King]

It is official though. DA's marketing was never brilliant.

[Hiemoth]

CybAnt1 wrote...

And I would not argue that the problem is the players remembering 3 icons, after all they remember 6 icons that are actualy used in DA2, but if we have a huge assortment of icons it will break the flow of the dialogue as it can very easily become confusing 

Well, the 6 icons were really just variants on 3. 

Diplomatic and Helpful (light green/blue) (often called "Peaceful" here) were basically functionally and emotionally the same. 
Humorous and Charming (purple) (often called "Sarcastic" here) were likewise.
Aggressive and Direct (red) (often called "Angry" here) ... likewise.

No, H., what I am looking forward to is also seeing Sadness ... how about a Crying Face icon  ... that can be dark blue. Surprise/Shock ... that can be a surprised face  ... make that orange. And Fear/Terror ... well that can be a fearful face ... make that yellow.

See ... you can still remember them by colors, if not by always being in the same positions. And is that too hard to memorize? 

If all else fails ... here's an idea ... READ what's there next to the icon and get un-confused. It's FUN-DA-MENTAL.

Except they didn't use faces as the tone symbols in DA2, most likely because I can already see that to be really difficult to implement clearly, and your system would consist of several emotions which would still need to be grouped together somehow for sake of clarity, such as the sets of threes in DA2. I doubt they did that for the sake of laziness, but rather because it is clearer for the player to know what part of the wheel usually results with a given response. Even in the reaction wheel, I almost certainly see them more giving the emotional state in the text rather than in symbols or then the amount of emotional reactions will be severely limited for the sake of clarity. Besides, colors are pretty difficult as if diplomatic would be blue, but sadness dark blue, is kind of inviting misunderstanding the given response.

As for that fundamental reading part, yeah, I assume most people playing the game know how to read. However the tone symbols whole point is to give context to the response and indicate which tone it will be given in to avoid confusion, yet your solution is to read the text to give context for the tone symbol? Seems a bit contradictory, especially since nothing so far indicates that they will have so much text in the tone wheel. Even the expanded text shown in the gameplay seemed to only show what are you actually choosing your troops to do instead of what you are saying. I think they have been very adamant on the fact that they will not show the text of what is being said before choice.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Glad they're going with DA2's style instead of going ass backwards with the lists.

Improve, don't just give up and stay stagnant.

The old system mimicked real world conversations just about perfectly.  It didn't need any improvement.

[KaiserShep]

I wouldn't say that the old system was really perfect, since investigating further into the dialogue with an NPC was sometimes awkward. What actually helped it was the fact that this was text, and not spoken aloud. It's sort of the same effect as Commander Shepard's "I should go", which became the butt of its own joke in Citadel.

[Bond]

Lets hope one of the first upcoming interviews will be about the dialogue system. I am sure they are still nailing it down and could rework some of it if they want to,but it is their ass on the line, they should decide this. As cyber stated it is not list vs wheel - it is poorly executed dialogue against a robust and superb one. I thought they were thinking how to make conversations better than DAO, but their statements make me believe they are happy with what they got ( DA2 writing style) which in my opinion has poor writing comparing it to DAO. I think i am not alone in this. How come no one is complaining of Dragon Age Origins conversations ? If Dragon Age 2 did something right is voicing the main protagonist. And you see a lot of possitive reactions.

But why would people complain about icons and dialogue in general, if they liked it? Yes there are a lot of people who even enjoyed it but they are mainly in this forum supporting you. This does you no favour when it is time to count the sales and read the reviews though. Maybe i am wrong but what about those mocking pictures of the "conversation" options. Lets hope you do the right thing, because one small studio in Poland fixed  every f thing they can and released superb sequel which improved on almost all aspects possible. Now their third installement is the most expected  game of 2014. This studio is riding the wave, because they provide for their fans and listen to them. They are not the one on the decline in terms of quality, because they do not use phrases as "We stick to it", "We will do something very similar", "We are commited to do this in that way". 

Looking forward to dev diaries, especially the one on this topic, this will answer it all for me, what can i expect from the game. I love a lot of the new staff, do not get me wrong, i like the engine, visuals(not art style, but visuals), i like the combat better(although still too similar to DA2), i love the non regeneratable health, i love the potion limit, interactive banter, managing inquisition, but one cup of honey and one cup of s@@t equals two cups of s@@t. Even 10 cups of honey and 1 cup of s###t gives same result.

And lastly i will give you another example, why you may not be approaching this 100% correctly. The combat definetely needed fixing but not neccessery by doing it hack and slash. Dragon age have unique combat mechanics, which now are gone because it is another hack and slash game. I mean DA2 combat was visually hurting my eyes but fixing it would be, pacing it right, improve animations ( rework them entirely, which you kind of did), add more meaningffull abilities but retain that origins feel. Now i feel i am in fable game. If this revolutionary effort was put in the right direction ( dialogue and conversations) with retaining combat fun and tactical ( origins with improved visuals, animations, sounds etc) you would have every single core bioware fan in your pocket already, cause those are the 2 things which we enjoy most.

Modifié par LoyalFan, 18 février 2014 - 06:58 .

[Fast Jimmy]

But why would people complain about icons and dialogue in general, if they liked it? Yes there are a lot of people who even enjoyed it but they are mainly in this forum supporting you. 

This is the two-sided argument. People on the forums assume that DA2 fans only hang out on the Bioware forums and anyone who supports what DA2 did is likely here. DA2 fans, in turn, say only the most hardcore players would lurk a forum for a game series they don't like anymore, therefore everyone who is an old grognard and dislikes the drawbacks of a voiced protagonists are elitist a who are out of touch with the masses.

Bioware, arguably the one who is able to receive the most feedback from the most places, is departing from the dominant tone, but sticking with the wheel, paraphrases and icons. Does that make anyone right? Anyone wrong? Who knows - we'll have to see.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 18 février 2014 - 07:19 .

[Star fury]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

This is the two-sided argument. People on the forums assume that DA2 fans only hang out on the Bioware forums and anyone who supports what DA2 did is likely here. DA2 fans, in turn, say only the most hardcore players would lurk a forum for a game series they don't like anymore, therefore everyone who is an old grognard and dislikes the drawbacks of a voiced protagonists are elitist a who are out of touch with the masses.

Bioware, arguably the one who is able to receive the most feedback from the most places, is departing from the dominant tone, but sticking with the wheel, paraphrases and icons. Does that make anyone right? Anyone wrong? Who knows - we'll have to see.

I'd say that I saw so many DA2 fans only on bsn. On any other game forum I frequent the general point of view ranges from DA2 being average to crap.

[BunnyBryce]

I'd love some more in depth conversations. Being locked out of conversations because you picked a romance suuuucks!

[KaiserShep]

I've seen DA2 fans outside of BSN. Game forums are hit or miss, often comparable to Youtube, or worse, Yahoo article comments.

[Bond]

The topic is not about DAII it is about the new dialogue system. Read any random comments in the i nternet i bet you any amount of money that majority will say that the game is full of crap and the other will claim it is not that bad just average. There will be two people who will say it is good and they will be laughed at. That is not the point, the point is when the reaction is so bad, you change everything, not the half of it. The ony thing everyone praises is the voiced protagonist.
I made enough arguments on the topic that it is enough to write a big book, so i will leave it to the developer to decide if they want to retain the dumb dialogue system. Just do not act surprised when the ****storm is released, when people play the game, nor say that no one gave negative feedback on the subject. As i love to say "Do you", i am sure what the reaction will be, because ive seen what modders try to do, what people think on the forums and my friends feedback but it is your decision and ass on the line. I will suggest to go research opinions on DA2 dialogue system, not just in this forum and decide if you want to be "happy with what you have got" or try to appeal to the people and show them their opinion is the most important, cause they are the clients, and the client is always right.

Modifié par LoyalFan, 19 février 2014 - 09:46 .

[Gnoster]

To me the mechanics og choosing a dialogue option and the actual dialogue system is two different things.

Whether I am to pick my chosen line from and list or from a dialogue wheel, I couldn't really care less. I agree with the OP, that what matters is the dialogue itself and the system behind it. I dislike the Renegade/Paragon approach Mass Effect took and though better DA2's Nice/Sarcastic/Rude approach wasn't exactly a good way either.
In this aspect DAO was the best, no rude versus nice answer, it depended on the person you speak to. A dialogue wheel is fine, but sometimes the "best" answer should be the bottom right one and not always the top right one.

[Fast Jimmy]

Gnoster wrote...

To me the mechanics og choosing a dialogue option and the actual dialogue system is two different things.

Whether I am to pick my chosen line from and list or from a dialogue wheel, I couldn't really care less. I agree with the OP, that what matters is the dialogue itself and the system behind it. I dislike the Renegade/Paragon approach Mass Effect took and though better DA2's Nice/Sarcastic/Rude approach wasn't exactly a good way either.
In this aspect DAO was the best, no rude versus nice answer, it depended on the person you speak to. A dialogue wheel is fine, but sometimes the "best" answer should be the bottom right one and not always the top right one.

Ugh. This is my problem with icons and wheels - you can go through the whole game without considering anything, just choose "Top Right" or "the Blue icon" and you have a 95% good chance of getting the best outcomes. 

At at least a dialogue list makes you consider the options, instead of just playing a position on the wheel. 

[Bond]

Yes, one of the many problems folks. I agree completely.

[CybAnt1]

FJ, it seems the problem is there are people who think reading is something they should not be doing in a game.

And I understand that. I don't want to have to read anything (much) when I'm playing Halo, I'm too busy dodging things being shot at me, and firing back. Of course, having to read a lot of text makes no sense in an action game.

I think those people would rather have a very easy to memorize icon, in a constant position on a wheel, so that they can just click "Charming" rather than have to read some text. In other words, they want to RP with and purely through emoticons. They're not even reading the short paraphrase. They're like "just say something Charming". They want to rush through dialogue.

I just think the CRPG is about controlling a character beyond just what emotions they want to express ... it's about choosing what they are going to say. That means choosing words and dialogue through READING. I mean, how else can you do it?

Flame me if you wish, but if you don't like reading, maybe Halo and action games are better for you ... don't play CRPGs?

I want to read what my character's about to say. Not have to play Guess the Result of the Paraphrase! I guess I recognize there are people who don't care... they want "action dialogue" where all you are doing is choosing emoticons.

Have an occasional tonal icon to clarify tonal ambiguity? Sure. Have it there constantly in a constant color, position, and shape so I'm just picking via dialogue-by-icon? I mean, is there a timer there, so I have to "not be confused" because an icon might show up of a different color, position, or shape? If all else fails, and it's a different color or shape icon, just go look it up in the manual. How freaking hard is that? This "dialogue via icon" RPing makes no freaking sense to me. It's RP-lite. 

Here's the win/win ... optional tooltips for those who want them ... what they appear to be doing, for DAI.

Modifié par CybAnt1, 19 février 2014 - 02:24 .

[Bond]

Another spot on. So true about the skipping dialogue part via icons. But these people are so few in numbers, they should not be included in the equation. The only thing that comes to mind, whether someone actually uses icons is when they replay the game, and say to themself "this time i will be charmer", or in this conversation i will try to be rude and straightforward, not caring about the actual line.

But those people who play mainly FPS and do not care about RPG's should not be priority. Hope Bioware understand this simple thing. Even if they buy the game out of curiosity, you wont provoke their interest by trying to spoon feed them. If they dont enjoy RPG's in general, no number of icons or dumb and straightforward writing will change that. I myself am COD veteran and pro player but i am in love with a good RPG's. Guess if i want Dragon age to be as dumb and as straightforward, as cod....of course not.

Defending the DAII fashion of doing things is stupid, because despite being sequel to the one of the most critically and fan adored game, it sold almost twice less. Imagine if the bitter people, who were dissapointed with the sequel, to come back and check the new game and see the same wheel, the same dumbed down dialogue, lack of choices, lack of angle in the dialogues, lack of creativeness. My mind simply can not process this: How did you decide to the similar conversation pattern to DA2, when people complain about it (i dont judge them) all the time. There are thousand memes mocking the writing.

The wheel in DA2 is the second most laughed at thing(close second to "the cave") Do the wheel, i dont mind, just dont suit it to halo players, cause they are not your customers. They might buy one game from the 3, might buy even 2, but more likely they wont even care or know about this game. The people who will buy this game are in this community and when they are not happy, many will spread bad word and criticism. Just look at the ME3 ending thing...I liked everything about this game, but my voice is overwhelmed by the negative reaction. Same is with someone who enjoyed DA2, because majority is pissed.

EDIT: Just to be clear ! I write these things because i enjoyed most of the things you have shown. I almost lose faith in the franchaise, and the direction it was heading, but now i expect this game with a lot of  impatience. This is for the singular reason that you listened to some of the feedback. Imagine if more people return, who were playing simply for the lore, story and the conversations. These huge audience will be back simply by showing them that dialogue will be on a whole different level than DAII and have nothing to do with it, except for the protagonist being voiced.

Modifié par LoyalFan, 19 février 2014 - 04:26 .

[Firky]

Didn't really think this warranted a whole new thread. But, it's information from PC Powerplay's preview and I thought it was presented well. It's about the conversation system.

 

(This may already be known. I have no idea. Stuff in "s are developer quotes.)

 

I think it boils down to ...

 

(You'll see only one of these wheels at a time.)

 

Tone wheel - world playing choices (? - maybe this means roleplaying choices, not sure), three major tones, no dominant tone based on prior choices. (It is all explained as to why they chose to do it this way. I won't go into it. But, makes sense.)

 

Action/Choice wheel - when the player has to make a decision but also for things like "I hate mages" vs "I like mages" (because tone isn't as relevant, I guess, it's just one attitude or the other.) Patrick Weekes, "that's when you're talking about things that are really going to have either a different outcome or you're espousing very, very different ideas about something."

 

Reaction wheel - for when the character is required to have an emotional reaction. "You're always going to have what we call the Stoic option." ; 'I don't feel anything really' David Gaider. "Also, sad, confused, enraged, which is basically the player telling us, 'I am feeling this.' "

 

That's how I read it, anyway. Three different types of wheels based on the context.

 

I think it's interesting because I hadn't heard this before, nor understood how and why they'd made the changes.

[byeshoe]

Didn't really think this warranted a whole new thread. But, it's information from PC Powerplay's preview and I thought it was presented well. It's about the conversation system.

 

(This may already be known. I have no idea. Stuff in "s are developer quotes.)

 

I think it boils down to ...

 

(You'll see only one of these wheels at a time.)

 

Tone wheel - world playing choices (? - maybe this means roleplaying choices, not sure), three major tones, no dominant tone based on prior choices. (It is all explained as to why they chose to do it this way. I won't go into it. But, makes sense.)

 

Action/Choice wheel - when the player has to make a decision but also for things like "I hate mages" vs "I like mages" (because tone isn't as relevant, I guess, it's just one attitude or the other.) Patrick Weekes, "that's when you're talking about things that are really going to have either a different outcome or you're espousing very, very different ideas about something."

 

Reaction wheel - for when the character is required to have an emotional reaction. "You're always going to have what we call the Stoic option." ; 'I don't feel anything really' David Gaider. "Also, sad, confused, enraged, which is basically the player telling us, 'I am feeling this.' "

 

That's how I read it, anyway. Three different types of wheels based on the context.

 

I think it's interesting because I hadn't heard this before, nor understood how and why they'd made the changes.

i'm so giddly about this hybrid that we'll be face with  holysnaps!  and i just know that the action wheel will have the murder knife somewhere

my anticipation for inquisition is up to 270% now