406 réponses à ce sujet

[CybAnt1]

I'm excited because it seems the reaction wheel will offer more flavors of emotion than 3 (angry, happy, placid) ... the action wheel WILL offer tooltips and context that explain what the results of your actions will be ... and the tone wheel ... well, it still will only give you partial paraphrases, so you kinda still are playing guess the result ... but all in all the new system sounds great, what I really want to see are demos of it in action, of course.

[TurretSyndrome]

I wish technology was advanced enough that the program would actively change the tone of the written lines. No matter how detailed this system in DA:I is going to be, it will still have that 1line x set emotion system in place. This is why I dislike voiced protagonists, at least with a silent one, I can have the illusion of saying something with my own tone.

[Bond]

Dear Bioware.

I posted this thread two months ago and as you know - people can change their opinions, views and ideas pretty fast.....So basically you can see in my first post and the ones that follow, that i begged you to drop the icons from the dialogue wheel. Now...two months later, i can assure you i still think that they are terrible, out of place, childish, unnecessery, oversimplifying, ugly, out of depth and simply dumb. Hope you see it one day. Maybe not today, maybe not even next year, but one day in the future. At least next ME wont have them ( if it does, it will speak louder than anything about the IQ of americans and other nations for that matter). If someone have problems to figure something from a paraphrase they should stop playing games and read some books or go out and talk to people. 



Now even if we drop all the common sense arguments that i can give you about the terrible idea of putting fox kids icons while having serious dialogues, let me suggest the idea, that many people who play games without doing their research, just might buy this game and look at the icons during dialogue and they will remember the horror of March 2011 pretty fast, then they will go trash the game before even playing it.

And finally ( i wont ever speak of the subject, cause it is futile) i will list the things i would rather have than icons in the middle of the wheel:
-blank space
-coloured space
-desktop glitch or sth
- X
- O
- bunch of ----
- random letter from the alphabet
- random symbol
- random symbol people use for tatoo ( can be japanese stuff too)
- random phrases people ink on themself "only god can judge me" and crap like this....

But..........childish icons it is !

[Aurelet]

I'd actually really like a Tonal Wheel, seperate from a Dialogue list.

[David Gaider]

Now...two months later, i can assure you i still think that they are terrible, out of place, childish, unnecessery, oversimplifying, ugly, out of depth and simply dumb. Hope you see it one day. Maybe not today, maybe not even next year, but one day in the future.

 

That's a lot of adjectives, considering they also seem to encompass anything we do with the system for DAI—which you haven't seen yet.

 

At this point, I'm afraid I'm quite content to put out what we've worked on and let people eventually give feedback to that, rather than listen to people respond to DA2 as if that's all it is and ever could be. Even so, we're quite aware there will always be people who will never like the voiced protagonist and/or the dialogue wheel system (and sometimes conflate issues between the two, which is fine) and would like us to toss the entire thing out of the window rather than work on refining it...and ultimately we have to be okay with that, considering there are also benefits for doing things as we've chosen to do. If you count among those people, then I'm very sorry. It's not going to happen.

[Darth Krytie]

That's a lot of adjectives, considering they also seem to encompass anything we do with the system for DAI—which you haven't seen yet.

 

At this point, I'm afraid I'm quite content to put out what we've worked on and let people eventually give feedback to that, rather than listen to people respond to how DA2 as if it's all it is and ever could be. Even so, we're quite aware there will always be people who will never like the voiced protagonist and/or the dialogue wheel system (and sometimes conflate issues between the two, which is fine) and would like us to toss the entire thing out of the window rather than work on refining it...and ultimately we have to be okay with that, considering there are also benefits for doing things as we've chosen to do. If you count among those people, then I'm very sorry. It's not going to happen.

 

As much as I love when you come here, I think this is a case of talking to a wall. Some people make opinions based on little to no information, never having ever experienced it, and decide prematurely to hate something. More than that, some people are determined to hate anything that BioWare (and by extension EA) does because they have decided to hate it with all the subtle nuance of a toddler declaring that all vegetables are gross and refusing to eat anything after that, even something they'd love if they tried.

 

However, please do tell us more about the dialogue system. It sounds fascinating and I really am interested in how it'll all play out.

[DragonRacer]

As much as I love when you come here, I think this is a case of talking to a wall. Some people make opinions based on little to no information, never having ever experienced it, and decide prematurely to hate something. More than that, some people are determined to hate anything that BioWare (and by extension EA) does because they have decided to hate it with all the subtle nuance of a toddler declaring that all vegetables are gross and refusing to eat anything after that, even something they'd love if they tried.

 

However, please do tell us more about the dialogue system. It sounds fascinating and I really am interested in how it'll all play out.

 

Seconded on everything you said.

 

Personally, I'm really excited by the few things we've heard about the improvements on the dialogue wheel and the adding of more clear tones/emotional reactions and whatnot. I actually REALLY liked the wheel in DA2, other than the occasional times when the reaction by Hawke didn't feel like it necessarily matched the "preview" on the wheel, but they've already said they're working on a better method of clarifying those sorts of things, so I'm happy.

[David Gaider]

However, please do tell us more about the dialogue system. It sounds fascinating and I really am interested in how it'll all play out.

 

What questions do you have? I've explained a number of things in various places, so I'm never sure what one person to the next has actually heard. I don't think I have anything new to add, but I can always repeat something, if need be.

[Bond]

That's a lot of adjectives, considering they also seem to encompass anything we do with the system for DAI—which you haven't seen yet.

 

At this point, I'm afraid I'm quite content to put out what we've worked on and let people eventually give feedback to that, rather than listen to people respond to how DA2 as if it's all it is and ever could be. Even so, we're quite aware there will always be people who will never like the voiced protagonist and/or the dialogue wheel system (and sometimes conflate issues between the two, which is fine) and would like us to toss the entire thing out of the window rather than work on refining it...and ultimately we have to be okay with that, considering there are also benefits for doing things as we've chosen to do. If you count among those people, then I'm very sorry. It's not going to happen.

I have never said anything about voiced protagonist and dialogue wheel systems in my post. I am giving my opinion on the childish icons, which are already confirmed. Yet your posts seems to never bother with actual topic of my statement, instead you speak about bunch of things, completely non related  to the thing i said. You have every right to do so, but why quoting me then ?

[Darth Krytie]

Seconded on everything you said.

 

Personally, I'm really excited by the few things we've heard about the improvements on the dialogue wheel and the adding of more clear tones/emotional reactions and whatnot. I actually REALLY liked the wheel in DA2, other than the occasional times when the reaction by Hawke didn't feel like it necessarily matched the "preview" on the wheel, but they've already said they're working on a better method of clarifying those sorts of things, so I'm happy.

 

I liked the dialogue wheel, too, actually. I just didn't like the set tone system as much. Because while it could be great at times, when you crack a joke (without input) in a situation that required gravity, it was a bit frustrating.  Plus, I like the idea of being able to not worry about what my 'set' tone is and just choose whatever dialogue I prefer. (I had to make sure I stayed on a certain path for those few, special dialogue options which relied on tone).

[John Epler]

I have never said anything about voiced protagonist and dialogue wheel systems in my post. I am giving my opinion on the childish icons, which are already confirmed. Yet your posts seems to never bother with actual topic of my statement, instead you speak about bunch of things, completely non related  to the thing i said.

 

Some people appreciate the icons, even as they were presented in DA2.

 

You do not.

 

That is fine.

 

Belittling the intelligence of others because they don't agree with you, however, is -not- fine.If you'd like to have a discussion that isn't essentially you saying 'I don't like this and if you do, you're dumb and childish', that is a discussion that can be had, although as Dave said, you don't have a lot of information to go on at the moment.

 

If it's going to be you trying to make your preference out to be objectively better and, consequentially, make yourself sound smarter, that is a discussion that isn't going to happen.

[GVulture]

I, for one, loved the voiced protagonist. I also don't mind reading a dialogue tree. That said, I liked the dialogue wheel. And I personally was never confused or shocked by what any protagonist said vs the paraphrase. I also thought that the icons on the DAII wheel was simple to understand once you got the hang of it. I personally think that people had a problem with it because unlike Mass Effect where everything is clear cut paragon blue and renegade red, Dragon Age is a series with more shades of grey so expecting top top top top top to always give you "good" outcomes and the middle to be neutral and bottom to be jerk ass is silly. You're not paying attention to the game if that is how you expected the dialogue wheel in DAII to work.

[Darth Krytie]

What questions do you have? I've explained a number of things in various places, so I'm never sure what one person to the next has actually heard. I don't think I have anything new to add, but I can always repeat something, if need be.

 

My questions may not be ones you can answer because of subjectiveness, but does it all work intuitively? If there are three wheels? Or do they come out depending upon each specific dialogue?  Like, in any given conversation (meaning one set of dialogue in which I choose a response) is there only one wheel at play, or more? Does it depend on what's being asked/answered/discussed? And about the tone wheel, what sort of emotions does it express?

[GVulture]

My questions may not be ones you can answer because of subjectiveness, but does it all work intuitively? If there are three wheels? Or do they come out depending upon each specific dialogue?  Like, in any given conversation (meaning one set of dialogue in which I choose a response) is there only one wheel at play, or more? Does it depend on what's being asked/answered/discussed? And about the tone wheel, what sort of emotions does it express?

Seconded. I kinda want an explanation on how each wheel would work in a given situation.

[DragonRacer]

I liked the dialogue wheel, too, actually. I just didn't like the set tone system as much. Because while it could be great at times, when you crack a joke (without input) in a situation that required gravity, it was a bit frustrating.  Plus, I like the idea of being able to not worry about what my 'set' tone is and just choose whatever dialogue I prefer. (I had to make sure I stayed on a certain path for those few, special dialogue options which relied on tone).

 

Yes, I do agree that getting a certain dominant tone set was a bit unfortunate. As much as I loved Sarcastic Hawke, there were some places where the sarcastic dominant tone of the auto-dialogue made me cringe.

 

I can be a funny, sassy person most of the time in life, but there are times when a foot needs to be put down and a time when extra kindness should be shown, so being able to clearly mark intended tone of dialogue is best. I like that auto-dialogue will be neutral rather than dominant tone-based like DA2.

[Bond]

Some people appreciate the icons, even as they were presented in DA2.

 

You do not.

 

That is fine.

 

Belittling the intelligence of others because they don't agree with you, however, is -not- fine.If you'd like to have a discussion that isn't essentially you saying 'I don't like this and if you do, you're dumb and childish', that is a discussion that can be had, although as Dave said, you don't have a lot of information to go on at the moment.

 

If it's going to be you trying to make your preference out to be objectively better and, consequentially, make yourself sound smarter, that is a discussion that isn't going to happen.

 

So before every statement i should put "in my opinion" or something like that ? I already use that phrase a lot, but from now on i am officially stating that the things i say are my opinion ! Shocking, yet true. Also, i am not trying to make anything look like something else....Not me being smarter, not others being childish. All i am saying is Mike Laidlaw commented that icons are back, i gave my opinion on the subject. Its not like i am deciding these stuff and i can assure you if you find my tone extreme about these things, you are in for unpleasent surprise......

I give you full permission as moderator/administrator to change my nickname to the most embarassing thing ever, without me able to change it back, if when the game ship, people dont start to complain about this. In DA2 you could not hear it because of the other bad aspects of the game. With that being said i am over and out, cause honestly i no longer care that much if they are in the game, since i am no longer on the hype train and i will wait for the reviews to hit in So you shouldn't be investing so much effort into my opinion, cause i am no longer "day one".



EDIT: DAMN ! How could i not think of this sooner ? If you are so confident in the wheel icons, do a simple "for-against" in the beggining of the PAX East panel. 

[ElitePinecone]

What questions do you have? I've explained a number of things in various places, so I'm never sure what one person to the next has actually heard. I don't think I have anything new to add, but I can always repeat something, if need be.

 

We've heard in some places that the "action wheel" (I think it's called?) is used for both making decisions and expressing our opinion on big, weighty issues.

 

For issues responses, will the available options be binary? Is there room for nuance in how we approach the big topics? I'm just curious how this wheel is differentiated from the normal conversation one, given in the past there were up to four or five different ways to respond to some question or dilemmas. 

[David Gaider]

My questions may not be ones you can answer because of subjectiveness, but does it all work intuitively? If there are three wheels? Or do they come out depending upon each specific dialogue?  Like, in any given conversation (meaning one set of dialogue in which I choose a response) is there only one wheel at play, or more? Does it depend on what's being asked/answered/discussed? And about the tone wheel, what sort of emotions does it express?

 

The different "types" of wheels are more or less invisible to the end user—truly it's a distinction which only we writers pay attention to, but if you're someone who analyzes the dialogue wheels as they're used in conversation, you'll see the differences.

 

Ultimately, as I've said previously, we have three main types in use:

 

Tone Wheel: This is used for what we call "flavor dialogue", where the player's not really expressing an opinion or making any kind of active choice, but is mainly reacting to the existing dialogue with personality. These wheels can consist of simply the three main "tones" (in DAI, that's Direct, Clever, and Noble) but will also have Special options (any options which are specific to a special condition, such as the existence of a romance, player variances such as race/class/gender, previous plot choices, etc.) as well as Investigate options. In DAO, this type of hub also existed, and used the same tones. It just didn't have icons, and the Special/Investigate options were bundled together in the same list.

 

Choice Wheel: This is used for both active choices (when the player is choosing what to do) as well as situations where we have the player expressing an opinion and don't want to conflate opinions with tones (this happened occasionally in DA2, and we didn't like how that played so we broke it back out into something separate). Like the tone wheel, Special and Investigate options can also exist here. Really the only difference between the two is the fact the Choice Wheel responses are always "neutral" toned (meaning they simply lack the inflection of Direct/Clever/Noble and could apply to any personality, unlike in DA2 where every Choice option had three different resulting lines based on dominant tone) and the icons are different.

 

Reaction Wheel: This is a slightly rarer wheel, used for when something has happened where we believe the player will be responding with emotion rather than opinion (or, at least, we provide that option). When this comes up, the possible options are: Enraged, Sad, Pleased, Surprised, Confused, Afraid...and Stoic, for the "neutral" option. We use whichever ones we feel are appropriate to the situation, never all of them. There are no Special or Investigate options on this sort of wheel.

 

And that's it. We use whatever wheel works anytime a player response hub comes up, so a given conversation might use one, two, or even all three of these wheels in turn. As for how intuitive it is, I'm not sure. We're going for ways to write the dialogue intuitively, and overall I think it works a bit better than in DA2 (we've certainly had more time to play with it and test it), but I imagine that'll work to varying degrees for the user based on their expectation, as with any interface.

[David Gaider]

We've heard in some places that the "action wheel" (I think it's called?) is used for both making decisions and expressing our opinion on big, weighty issues.

 

For issues responses, will the available options be binary? Is there room for nuance in how we approach the big topics? I'm just curious how this wheel is differentiated from the normal conversation one, given in the past there were up to four or five different ways to respond to some question or dilemmas. 

 

It doesn't have to be "big, weighty issues" -- it might simply be the player indicating their opinion on whatever subject has arisen. If we feel the responses don't really map to a Tone Wheel, we'll use the Choice Wheel instead. Then we can freely add up to five options (or more, if there are options which map to the Special, which can break out to a sub-wheel in the same manner as Investigates if there are more than one). At that point, we'll use as many options as we feel cover the bases, depending on the subject at hand.

[Darth Krytie]

The different "types" of wheels are more or less invisible to the end user—truly it's a distinction which only we writers pay attention to, but if you're someone who analyzes the dialogue wheels as they're used in conversation, you'll see the differences.

 

Ultimately, as I've said previously, we have three main types in use:

 

Tone Wheel: This is used for what we call "flavor dialogue", where the player's not really expressing an opinion or making any kind of active choice, but is mainly reacting to the existing dialogue with personality. These wheels can consist of simply the three main "tones" (in DAI, that's Direct, Clever, and Noble) but will also have Special options (any options which are specific to a special condition, such as the existence of a romance, player variances such as race/class/gender, previous plot choices, etc.) as well as Investigate options. In DAO, this type of hub also existed, and used the same tones. It just didn't have icons, and the Special/Investigate options were bundled together in the same list.

 

Choice Wheel: This is used for both active choices (when the player is choosing what to do) as well as situations where we have the player expressing an opinion and don't want to conflate opinions with tones (this happened occasionally in DA2, and we didn't like how that played so we broke it back out into something separate). Like the tone wheel, Special and Investigate options can also exist here. Really the only difference between the two is the fact the Choice Wheel responses are always "neutral" toned (meaning they simply lack the inflection of Direct/Clever/Noble and could apply to any personality, unlike in DA2 where every Choice option had three different resulting lines based on dominant tone) and the icons are different.

 

Reaction Wheel: This is a slightly rarer wheel, used for when something has happened where we believe the player will be responding with emotion rather than opinion (or, at least, we provide that option). When this comes up, the possible options are: Enraged, Sad, Pleased, Surprised, Confused, Afraid...and Stoic, for the "neutral" option. We use whichever ones we feel are appropriate to the situation, never all of them. There are no Special or Investigate options on this sort of wheel.

 

And that's it. We use whatever wheel works anytime a player response hub comes up, so a given conversation might use one, two, or even all three of these wheels in turn. As for how intuitive it is, I'm not sure. We're going for ways to write the dialogue intuitively, and overall I think it works a bit better than in DA2 (we've certainly had more time to play with it and test it), but I imagine that'll work to varying degrees for the user based on their expectation, as with any interface.

 

Thank you! I knew some of this, but this clears up a lot and I can see it my mind's eye now. And I'm happy about the changes you've said you made based on what did/didn't work in DA2. It sounds a lot more nuanced, and that can only mean good things.

 

I really appreciate all the clarifications.

[TurretSyndrome]

 

At this point, I'm afraid I'm quite content to put out what we've worked on and let people eventually give feedback to that, rather than listen to people respond to DA2 as if that's all it is and ever could be. Even so, we're quite aware there will always be people who will never like the voiced protagonist and/or the dialogue wheel system (and sometimes conflate issues between the two, which is fine) and would like us to toss the entire thing out of the window rather than work on refining it...and ultimately we have to be okay with that, considering there are also benefits for doing things as we've chosen to do. If you count among those people, then I'm very sorry. It's not going to happen.

 

Just my 2 cents here. When you say you work to refine the system, you do not always do that. The wheel was not a system that you implemented in Dragon age from the start, you simply copied it from Mass Effect and modified it in DA 2. Many people like myself, liked the fact that in DA:O we were able to choose lines which cannot be misinterpreted by the player, despite them being limited in number. So in DA 2, you refined neither the existing system nor tried to implement what was best about it in the new one. 

 

The voice protagonist I dislike because I am aware of the amount of effort needed to be put into it, as opposed to a silent one. Still, it did not annoy me(sometimes I liked that Hawke was able to speak) anywhere near how much paraphrasing annoyed me. I watch playthroughs of DA 2 every now and then and I still find to this day people having problems with it's conversation system, saying that whatever Hawke said was not what they intended or felt that the spoken line wasn't anywhere close to the written one.

 

Even acknowledging that problem, you persist on keeping paraphrasing in the game and do not wish to give us any alternative so we may know what the spoken line will be. I have to say I'm also confused as to why you even wish to use this method of conversation in the game in the first place, as paraphrasing only increases the number of words used(since the spoken line =/= written one) overall. I also do not see the benefit in potentially confusing the player and distancing them from their characters with such a system. Therefore, I do not see this as refinement.

[AlanC9]

I wish technology was advanced enough that the program would actively change the tone of the written lines. No matter how detailed this system in DA:I is going to be, it will still have that 1line x set emotion system in place. This is why I dislike voiced protagonists, at least with a silent one, I can have the illusion of saying something with my own tone.

Of course, NPCs would react to the writer's imagined tone, not your imagined tone. But I guess by the tine we can have the tone altered at will, we can dynamically change NPC reactions too.

[DragonRacer]

This sounds wonderfully more detailed than the previous two dialogue systems!

 

David, are you able to tell us any about the "joining party banter" system? I believe I read somewhere that the Inquisitor will be able to take part in random party banter while strolling along (or can choose not to participate) and I'm wondering how that would work?

[Darth Krytie]

Of course, NPCs would react to the writer's imagined tome, not your imagined tone. But I guess by the tine we can have the tone altered at will, we can dynamically change NPC reactions too.

 

Tell me about it. That happened a lot for me in my first Origins playthrough...what I thought the tone was and what the NPC thought the tone was...completely different.