Oftentimes, patenting a game element is less about 'we don't want anyone else to use this' as it is 'if someone else patents this and then sues us, that would suck'. There are enough patent trolls out there that it's an unfortunate necessity to cover yourself.
You should not patent conversation icons though 
No one else is going to use them. Unless Peter Molyneux makes rpg again or sth.
The system you like is "mature"? Weren't you warned about this sort of thing upthread?
" Mature" is insult 0.0
" Mature" is insult 0.0
You'd be very surprised as to the sort of things you can try and patent. See, for example, the UI methods Amazon has patented.
There is a fair bit of variability in what Adam Jensen does/says/believes, and honestly a game like DA:O didn't have more variability in persona than DA2 did. Bioware's difficulty is more dealing with how a certain set of fans sees the lack of VO as greatly broaden the scope of possible characters.
That's not the argument I'm engaging.
At this point, I still maintain there is room for a voiced character, and possibility for knowing what he's about to say, too.
I also accept there are people who wouldn't want to, or would find seeing the dialog he's about to say seen and then heard, annoying.
It would have to be on a toggle. (cue sound of screaming puppy).
I
...Hawke proceeded to threaten the information out of Samson (good) by exposing his efforts to help runaway mages to the templars (wait, what?!)
That particular threat doesn't work for an aggressive Hawke who supports mage freedom... and there is no indication that the dialogue will involve Hawke's stance on mages. I'm looking forward to DAI because it sounds like the different types of wheels will help keep these issues separate.
There's an experiment we talked about doing some time ago. It couldn't be run at the time because we needed fresh content that nobody participating had seen yet.
Would anyone be willing to jot down their decision-making for their first few DAI conversations? How you're playing your character, what you think the paraphrases mean will be said, and why the actual spoken phrase is or isn't acceptable? I realize that this would impose real costs on the player, of course.
Alan, who is we, kemosabe?
And I agree, the problem with this has to do with the nature of human memory. How well can you remember spoken (only) dialogue from movies, without subtitles? I really can't often remember the entirety of (long) movie quotes (esp. back and forth exchanges) without looking up the full text of them at IMDB.
I have memories of experiencing this disconnect in DA2, but this is why I have difficulty recalling exactly the precise disconnect between paraphrase and spoken dialogue.
I would be a willing participant, although I still don't know who "we" is . 
Endorsing something as "mature" carries implication the alternative is not. That is an insult and something a mature person would realize quite easily, so I think you're being disingenuous here..." Mature" is insult 0.0
You should not patent conversation icons though
Consider this your last warning. Either participate constructively in the thread or be removed.
Endorsing something as "mature" carries implication the alternative is not. That is an insult and something a mature person would realize quite easily, so I think you're being disingenuous here...
Okay i find Alpha Protocol or Telltale approach mature and i find DAII childish...still cant see the insult here. One is more suitable for crowd of people, who want to really immerse themselves into the conversation, not being spoon feeded by icons and tones. The other is more suited to children, since they can see an icon and connect it to the emotion they want to express. Or just remember that if they want to be the good guy, they should pick the top answer and if they want to be the rude guy, they should choose the one on bottom.
Still not insulting anyone, do you see it now ? Something being suited for children is not an insult, it is a decision on the developer's part.
EDIT: Go ahead Johny, delete my post and leave only the positive feedback. This is the way of handeling things "maturely". And the thing you quoted is pure fact and you know it Name me one game that does conversation icons and i will delete my post, saving you the effort.
Okay i find Alpha Protocol or Telltale approach mature and i find DAII childish...still cant see the insult here. One is more suitable for crowd of people, who want to really immerse themselves into the conversation, not being spoon feeded by icons and tones.
You post on the internet and don't see a use for clarifying tones? How many times have you seen someone misunderstand sarcasm?
EDIT: Go ahead Johny, delete my post and leave only the positive feedback. This is the way of handeling things "maturely". And the thing i quoted is pure fact and you know it
It has nothing to do with positive or negative feedback. But it's obvious that you are unwilling to see the pros of anything other than your view, so I won't bother engaging.
Edited grammar stuff since it's possible English isn't your first language.
And to add to that, there will be pop up windowses in some instances to clarify further.
There will be instances where the game clarifies what consequences your choice wheel will make, yes. If you are someone serious about engaging meaningfully with the choice system, this is useful.
But besides that, Dragon Age's wheel doesn't suffer from the issues Mass Effect's did. It doesn't game-ify dialogue by giving points for consistently picking one type of response, for example. By providing icons, it lessens the chance that one will misunderstand the intent of a paraphrase.
But besides all this, I don't see the point of *not* having the icons. If your definition of a mature player is someone who doesn't use them, then don't use them as a guide to pick your options. For those who value knowing the tone of the paraphrase, it's useful.
Okay, i wasted enough breath on this, the only thing i am hoping is ME development team are more open minded to change, dont include icons and look up to telltale and alpha protocol. I made my point, off to the ME forums i go, i wont be troubling the mods with deleting such rude, insulting and negative comments as mine.
Heh. So DA2 is childish, the only people who like it are children, and if the devs don't realize what a truly "mature" player wants then they're idiots. But, hey, no insult intended. Have I summed up your argument correctly?
Personally, I find it odd that icons are specifically the hill you'd like to die on. I think there was some discussion about a toggle to turn the icons off (as that's pretty low-impact, insofar as toggles go), but let me tell you: the way you make your arguments is hardly going to convince anyone to accommodate you, never mind a developer. If you really think the Mass Effect devs will be more open to this approach of yours, I suspect you'll be disappointed.
But naturally that's only because we don't want to listen to well-reasoned criticism, am I right?
Alan, who is we, kemosabe?
It came up when discussing ME dialogue options; IIRC Sylvius was leading the anti-wheel forces that day, as often happens. We had different opinions on how predictable ME lines are from the paraphrases, but couldn't resolve the dispute because we couldn't gather any data. Since we'd already seen all the choices available, it was just our own memories to say how many problems we'd had and what they were. Anyway, it was all hypothetical since there weren't any upcoming releases at the time.
I'm up for this too, unless DAI's sysreqs are a lot higher than I think they're going to be.
I think the wheel needs to be reworked. I'd prefer if they ditch the text cause it's misleading and just use the icons. A common problem in mass effect 2 was that sometimes you thought the renegade text was more reasonable and shepard just punched the guy in the face.
The other problem was the mood swings of Hawke in DA2. It was the diplomatic/friendly Hawke, the Ace Ventura Hawke, and the "say what again, i double dare you motherfucker" Hawke. I don't know how they record the conversation, but it seemed to me that they said to the voice actor "say this line as if you were the most angry person in the world" and the actor didn't really know in what piece of dialog he was responding to. The tone of the protagonist voice should be relevant I guess ;p .
Also I'd like the left wheel side pretty much reduced to one option non repeatable except for some npcs. Not only it's annoying when the options change spot by themselves and you ask the same thing over and over by mistake, but it breaks immersion as well. Instead I'd prefer the protagonist to ask something, the other guy to tell him what he knows, and make a journal entry.
-I've heard rumors about these caves.
-Yes milord, a month ago some adventurers went in there never came out. We found a corpse one day and he was mangled like a dragon chewed on him.
Entry ###
"I asked around about the caves, the natives agreed that the caves are dangerous, some even said that the wound were something a dragon will do, but there are no dragons here to my knowledge".
I think it's going to be better Instead of asking 435234532 questions like "-Are there any dragons here" "-Haven't seen one milord", "where did you find the corpse?" "-near the cave milord", and all the obvious stuff. Choice is good but choice for the sake of choice i think its dumb and tiring.
And then have an npc which is the guy that really knows his stuff and can tell you more, so the journal will be updated.
Entry ###
"I asked around about the caves, the natives agreed that the caves are dangerous, some even said that the wounds were something a dragon will do, but there are no dragons here to my knowledge. The village elder hinted that it could be a strider".
I don't know how they record the conversation, but it seemed to me that they said to the voice actor "say this line as if you were the most angry person in the world" and the actor didn't really know in what piece of dialog he was responding to.
I really appreciate the movement toward making the game more cinematic. I have never felt there is anything wrong with hearing my protag speak; of course I want to. I also agree with others that I don't mind him doing a lot of physical interaction while speaking, like putting a hand on a companion's shoulder. Obviously, I get why people say how odd it looks when the Warden says something moving and important (well, in text, anyway), but stands there expressionless and practically lifeless in the scene while it's happening.
On the other hand, I felt disconnected from Hawke in a different way. The Warden felt like a shell I was inhabiting. I really got a sense of his inner life, at least in the sense that his thoughts lived in his words. Hawke was impermeable to me. It really was more like watching an actor I was directing in a movie, than being that actor, inhabiting his consciousness, sensing his inner life, controlling his choices and destiny. Thus in that sense, it created that disconnection which for me, anyway, felt just as disconcerting as the earlier kind of disconnection people felt with the Warden since he was always expressionless and silent and rarely moving/doing while reciting his lines.
I don't agree at all with the first paragraph. The second paragraph though, is the entire des Pudels Kern!
On the first, there's no reason to have any discussion now, but I wouldn't be as generous as you. Otoh, we have to see how the actual game plays and feels. Because whatever, it's what you describe in the second quoted paragraph which is the central issue. And that is what we have to hope Bioware's developers have considered.
If it works, the actual mechanics don't matter.
des Pudels Kern?
And how come you're more connected when picking stuff from a list? You don't actually have any more access to the Warden's inner life than you do to Hawke's since someone else is writing all the dialogue for both. I understand that the phenomenon exists, but I don't understand the mechanism.
If you'd like a more in-depth response on why toggles make me wince, I made a post about it on my blog.
BTW, Lord Gaider (forgive me if I keep using this nickname for you, but I can't help it when I see you wielding your magic staff, plus Bio keeps doing Star Wars-based games and you know which Sith Lord your last name rhymes with) ...
I totally agree with your third-to-last paragraph. I absolutely agree it's nonsensical to players to ask for some kind of magic switch that will turn off all references in the game to the Maker, or to turn off any possibility of males hitting on males.
The only kind of toggles I ever think are worth discussing are actual gamePLAY toggles (not "content gaters/filters") ... although I also know those can potentially cause the most problems, too. I recognize the game is full of interdependencies, and changing one thing to have two states can affect a bunch of others.
Plus the doubling of beta testing issue.
It came up when discussing ME dialogue options; IIRC Sylvius was leading the anti-wheel forces that day, as often happens. We had different opinions on how predictable ME lines are from the paraphrases, but couldn't resolve the dispute because we couldn't gather any data. Since we'd already seen all the choices available, it was just our own memories to say how many problems we'd had and what they were. Anyway, it was all hypothetical since there weren't any upcoming releases at the time.
I'm up for this too, unless DAI's sysreqs are a lot higher than I think they're going to be.
Ahhh. I see. Well, you know, I do like to know who's going to be running experiments on me before they happen. They definitely need to get a human subjects review board consent form, first.
I have no problem with someone named "Sylvius the Mad" running those experiments, even given his preferred pseudonym. He has joined the ranks of the Grognards, after all.
Here's an interesting question, though, and it's research that can be done with a literature review. Is there any good research on what's the minimum size a paraphrase can be, and still sufficiently describe a much longer monologue, or series of dialogues? (I guess the operational test being research subjects agreeing the paraphrase described the longer speech content accurately.)
Unfortunately, it seems most of the research on paraphrasing mostly exists to deal with how to paraphrase properly longer paragraphs in academic articles.
https://writing.wisc...paraphrase.html
des Pudels Kern?
And how come you're more connected when picking stuff from a list? You don't actually have any more access to the Warden's inner life than you do to Hawke's since someone else is writing all the dialogue for both. I understand that the phenomenon exists, but I don't understand the mechanism.
This is why, Alan, phenomenology is one of my favorite subjects. 
Probably, one of the hardest things to do is to describe to others why their subjective experiences differ.
That said, though, it doesn't make them unreal, anymore than does the fact that they might be in pain, and you have no objective way of verifying that.
I guess I could try and say the difference is, between reading the written word, and hearing the spoken word, and why having the ability to choose the written word feels more like "access" to thoughts than simply getting to hear the spoken word, based on a choice.
People experience different levels of connection to the spoken vs. written word - depending on the medium, of course - that was one of the big observations of Marshall McLuhan in the 60s.
Private reading provides us with a sense of mental interiority. I think that is why reading what your character is about to say creates a deeper sense of inhabiting their consciousness.
Listening tends to help connect us to an Other, but with a deep sense that the Other is an Other.
des Pudels Kern?
And how come you're more connected when picking stuff from a list? You don't actually have any more access to the Warden's inner life than you do to Hawke's since someone else is writing all the dialogue for both. I understand that the phenomenon exists, but I don't understand the mechanism.
And while I can understand why people play games like DA2 from a 'play-a-video-game' point of view, I don't understand why people call it role-play. I understand the phenomenon exists, but I kinda wonder if they think they 'role-play' also when they watch a movie or read a novel? If they don't, I don't understand where they see the difference.
You pose a question which you should have gotten answered many times by now. It's been asked many times by a very small number of specific individuals here. These same few individuals have spent a tremendous amount of time on the DA forums during recent years, very aggressively defending all the failed design choices of DA2 and changes to DA. These individuals, however, usually post these questions as part of an attempt at a strange argument, that the way 'we' (the usual suspects, me, StMad, Fast Jimmy, Serpieri Nei, eroeru, erynnar,...) actually experience these games, apparently somehow cannot be, is impossible. And supposedly always have been impossible, even since BG.
A ludicrous train of semantics posing as logic.
The Warden is very much my own creature and creation. Certainly all the inner life. Feelings, motivations. I don't just "pick stuff from a list". I make the words my Warden's. It's a process. The words do not come out until they're my character's. Typically, a much more elaborate conversation is also perceived, though not explicit.
Do you, for instance, take for granted that the only interaction the protagonist have with others, is the Bioware-authored, written and voice-acted lines?
Do you, for instance, see that the question you formulate suggests that you accept this as the actual situation?
Whereas, of course, my situation with Hawke is much different from the Warden. I'm trying, at the best, to make a few interactive choices (which often only results in different dialogues), and then I just passively watch a Bioware character act and speak with a stranger's voice (and not so rarely pulling a surprise as well).
I don't think the situation is hopeless. Certainly, silent protagonist would make it easier, but I don't rule out that it's possible to have a voiced and dialogue-wheeled protagonist which is my own creature. As you point out, the written lines are already a limitation, an obstacle to move the mind around. The mind can put a great deal of life into even something as a text-only adventure game. It's conceivable that voice and dialogue wheel can also be embraced and minded around, - if it doesn't slap your face with very ruineous things, like surprises and/or an annoying voice. There might be a way to do it right.
We'll see.
Having the description of options reduced only to the icons isn't going to help with that particular problem, but only make it worse -- seeing only the renegade icon won't warn you that Shepard is going to punch the dude in the face this time instead of merely using HARSH WORDS.I think the wheel needs to be reworked. I'd prefer if they ditch the text cause it's misleading and just use the icons. A common problem in mass effect 2 was that sometimes you thought the renegade text was more reasonable and shepard just punched the guy in the face.
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