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[GranfalloonMembr]

Inaugural post here, don't even have an avatar yet as you can see, but I really need to get this off my chest because Alistair managed to ****** me off and make me feel offended IRL. I guess that's a credit to Steve Valentine's ability to act, but it didn't change the fact that it was infuriating and that I really wish I could actually provoke him into attacking me like you can do with other party members so I could have an excuse to gut him. I don't want to wait until the Landsmeet.

Let me explain. After playing through the game as a Paragon/Light Side/whatever elf mage (for the most part anyway; she did stab Vaughan in his cell and she went through with the Fade ritual in which Isolde was sacrificed rather than spend who knows how many days traveling to the Circle Tower for lyrium while the demon was free to run amok; even if it doesn't matter in the game, just leaving everybody at that thing's mercy for such a long time seemed irresponsible to me), I created a dwarf commoner rogue and decided I'd be more of a bad guy.

Here's the thing: I actually didn't play the game as a complete sociopath because there were a number of places where I just couldn't bring myself to. I killed Caridin fully intending to use the Anvil, for instance, but after reading about how much pain the "volunteers" went through to become golems I decided "No, I'm gonna try to talk Branka out of using it."

The extent of my character's villainy has been pretty much taking the Grey Warden idea of "The ends justify the means" to heart, with some "What do I get out of helping you?" dialogue options thrown in. I sided with the templars, but not to the extent that Wynne felt compelled to fight me. I sided with the werewolves and made a case for attacking the Dalish camp instead of bringing Zathrian to them (which I still think was better than doing what Zathrian wanted me to).

I had not been treating Alistair well, however, because I can't stand him and his Grey Warden/Duncan cheerleading. In my first playthrough when he told my elf "Oh yeah, there are all kinds of effects of the Joining we didn't tell you about apart from the fact that it could kill you right on the spot. You'll have nightmares for the rest of your life, which is now only thirty years more at most, by the way. Aren't you grateful that Duncan picked you, and aren't you honored to be part of the Grey Wardens?"

And my elf was like "NO, you should have TOLD me about this stuff, and as far as I'm concerned Duncan got what he deserved." From that point on I lost all respect for him.

(Whether keeping the Joining secret is even necessary is another discussion entirely. However, considering the number of volunteers who know that it could kill them in Awakening, as well as people like Anders for whom it was either that or get taken away by the templars to be executed ASAP, I really believe that the Wardens would be able to keep their ranks full if they were open about what volunteers would be sacrificing, instead of keeping it all secret and forcing people to make those sacrifices. It's just as wrong as forcing people to become golems, no matter what the rationalization, IMO.)

All right, so, why has my dislike of Alistair become this wish that the game would let me actually hurt him personally? I'll tell you. I went to Redcliffe last this time with my dwarf, since I'd gone there first during my initial playthrough. By that time there was no more Circle of Magi to give me lyrium. I had also told Jowan to run away from the castle, which meant he wasn't available to offer the blood magic ritual.

The only option was killing Connor. And I didn't play like my character was eager to do it. I kept asking "Can anybody think of another solution to this? Anybody?" while privately thinking "Wynne, why aren't you bringing up the fact that this ritual could be done with blood magic? I know you don't like it, but wouldn't that be the lesser evil in your eyes?"

Right, so I killed Connor in the end, with Bann Teagan's support for it being the only way I might add, and of course Alistair tears into me verbally when I get back to camp. He keeps on talking like there was a better way and I didn't even try to look for a better way and so on and so forth.

Now, normally I am on board with that kind of argument. I'm not an "ends justify the means" person and I am still idealistic enough to believe there is always a better way. Hence my attitude toward the Joining and all that. However, Alistair is telling me here that as a Grey Warden, the ends do NOT justify the means. Really? After all of his defenses of the morally questionable stuff Grey Wardens have done in the name of stopping a Blight, suddenly he's getting all high and mighty and telling me I always have to be pure as the driven snow? Give me a bloody break. I bet if his hero Duncan had been the one to kill Connor, Alistair would be singing a completely different tune. Because of course Duncan can do no wrong in his eyes.

That isn't the thing that really got to me, though. It was when I got him to -100 disapproval--more through telling him things like "We're taking Zevran instead of killing him, now shut up and do what I say" than through completely sociopathic behaviour--that he confronted me in camp.

I said "Get out of my way" and he said he wouldn't and proceeded to yell at me and insult me, about how I was a disgrace, about how I wasn't worthy to be a Grey Warden, about how disgusted Duncan would be, etc. He's telling this to a guy who raised an army of templars, werewolves, and dwarves to fight the darkspawn and who saved most of the people in Redcliffe, a guy who saved Soldier's Peak and sealed the Veil there, a guy who did most of this stuff without any help from him since I didn't want to bring him along....and instead of telling me that he has a problem with me because of how I'm treating him, he's getting in my face and telling me that I'm not a hero?

Dude is practically begging for a dagger in the ribs here.

I told him that it wasn't like I asked for this, and he goes on about "Oh, so it's back to 'why me?' again? Wah wah wah", to paraphrase.

If he doesn't like the fact that I'm a Grey Warden, he should take it up with his dead mentor, the one who picked me based solely on my ability to beat people up and without knowing the first thing about what sort of person I was. Plus, not that I put much stock in what Duncan would think, but I actually don't think Duncan would say I was doing a horrible job. I am going to defile Andraste's ashes later on (which there really didn't seem to be any reason for beyond "Just do it to be evil") so I expect to be called out on that, but I haven't got to that point yet.

TL;DR: I've played as an anti-hero, rather than a villain who happens to be fighting worse villains. I've done an awful lot of good and am very close to getting Loghain off the throne and stopping the Blight. And this jackass is getting in my face and telling me that I suck and that I'm whiny and what I wanted for my life doesn't matter? This coming from the guy who responds to Arl Eamon's plan to put him on the throne with "What about what I want?"

He's a jerk and a hypocrite and no, I'm not saying Loghain's a better human being, but I can't wait to have him in my party instead and Alistair gone and headed for the noose. Plus, Loghain acts a hell of a lot less evil than he had been after the Landsmeet, which makes it easier for me to put his past misdeeds out of my mind.

[wiccame]

He's actually a pretty decent and reasonable guy. He can get uppity about a lot of stuff but you are going against everything he stands for, but he can be persuaded to see your side in a lot if you choose not to be an ass when he disagrees with you.
For instance, he just chewed me out for letting Isolde saccrifice herself, but with a little gentle persuasion I had him appologising profusely.

Modifié par wiccame, 16 février 2014 - 09:59 .

[Mike3207]

I'm not Alistair's biggest fan(surprise) but I've got to the point where I don't let Anora excute him anymore. Reason being, if he's the last Theirin left, it will wipe out the line of Calenhad. You have to think about that sort of stuff, especially if you have a King-Consort/King Cousland disappear at the end of DA2. You don't want to leave Ferelden in chaos after you disappear.

[Corker]

Rodian Power wrote...

 I am going to defile Andraste's ashes later on (which there really didn't seem to be any reason for beyond "Just do it to be evil")

You can do it to stop further bloodshed.  Agree to defile the Ashes, and I believe the Haven villagers will cease to be hostile toward you.  (Not sure about the cultists in unexplored areas of the caverns.)  It's actually not to hard, I think, to make the case that a human life is morally worth more than a thing - even a magical healing thing like the Ashes.

[GranfalloonMembr]

wiccame wrote...

He's actually a pretty decent and reasonable guy.

My feeling is that he would be a decent and reasonable guy....if not for the fact that he tells you that the Grey Wardens and their policy of making people drink poison and stabbing anybody who tries to back out are awesome.

No, they aren't. It's sickening that they do it, and it's sickening that he defends it and lets you have it if you're upset that you were forced into it.

I'm not just talking about the "Duncan got what he deserved" dialogue option, which I do understand is pouring salt in a fresh wound for him. I'm also talking other things, such as a dialogue choice from your very first conversation with him. He asks you if you wanted to be a Grey Warden. You can choose to answer that you didn't, and you still don't.

That's minus ten Disapproval right there. Just for saying that you're not happy about being conscripted (and who ever IS happy about that?) and that you aren't thrilled that you're going to be made to fight darkspawn. And that's before you even know what the Joining entails.

Granted, he doesn't yell at you or anything, but that's a lot of disapproval for what I feel is a very understandable sentiment.

The reason I say he's a hypocrite is that he criticizes you for complaining how unfair your situation is when complains about how unfair it is that he has to be king.

Also, that he criticizes you whenever you take an "ends justify the means" approach, when Duncan and the Grey Wardens believe very much that the ends always justify the means. It would make sense for him to talk that way if the Grey Wardens had lines that they wouldn't cross in the name of stopping a Blight, but as far as I know there is NO line the Grey Wardens won't cross because, in their eyes, anything and everything is justified if it somehow helps bring and end to a Blight.

[GranfalloonMembr]

Corker wrote...

Rodian Power wrote...

 I am going to defile Andraste's ashes later on (which there really didn't seem to be any reason for beyond "Just do it to be evil")

You can do it to stop further bloodshed.  Agree to defile the Ashes, and I believe the Haven villagers will cease to be hostile toward you.  (Not sure about the cultists in unexplored areas of the caverns.)  It's actually not to hard, I think, to make the case that a human life is morally worth more than a thing - even a magical healing thing like the Ashes.

Ah okay, I didn't know that.

I suppose you could make that case, and I'll have to talk to them more on my second trip there. On my first trip, however, I'd seen that the Haven villagers and/or cultists had murdered a number of unsuspecting knights (along with the guy at Genitivi's place), not to mention that Kolgrim was talking about how that dragon was Andraste reborn and seemed completely nuts. It seemed like they had a lot of blood on their hands and couldn't be reasoned with.

If there's a solution that involves no more killing at all, though, then I agree that would be the best one possible. Believing really crazy things isn't a crime by itself, and both of my characters have spared other people with innocent blood on their hands. (Hell, Sten's killed children, blind rage or no, and Zevran and Leliana used to kill people professionally.)

[Corker]

*nods* The Haven folk absolutely are elbow deep in blood and madness. If when Kolgrim first starts talking, you say, "Dude, Andraste is totally dead," he will attack without making an offer to parlay. But otherwise, he offers to lay off the violence if you defile the Ashes. If Zevran is in the party, he'll actually speak up in favor of ending further combat.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Corker wrote...

Rodian Power wrote...

 I am going to defile Andraste's ashes later on (which there really didn't seem to be any reason for beyond "Just do it to be evil")

You can do it to stop further bloodshed.  Agree to defile the Ashes, and I believe the Haven villagers will cease to be hostile toward you.  (Not sure about the cultists in unexplored areas of the caverns.)  It's actually not to hard, I think, to make the case that a human life is morally worth more than a thing - even a magical healing thing like the Ashes.

This is a credible motivation for a character, though I think that character would be pretty shortsighted. The Ashes are valuable because they have the power to save lives, and Eamon's will be the last they save if you do this. Then there's the fact that the cultists are actually a net loss of lives due to the way they treat strangers. Still, if you wanted a non-evil reason for a character to defile the ashes, this still works.

Or did you mean that you simply didn't want to be the one risk/lose lives to take them down? In that case, this really does work.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 16 février 2014 - 10:56 .

[mousestalker]

As a player you know the Ashes have power. As a dwarf commoner, not so much. The Chantry has a great deal of material power (templars, the ability to whip up Exalted Marches and so forth) but the only time it's even arguable there is any spiritual power is with the Ashes.

It's entirely in character for a dwarf character to think "Yeah, right" when people start babbling about the Ashes.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Fair point. Though I'll note that that same dwarf has decided that there's a good enough chance they have power to be worth almost eradicating the cult over anyway. And I think my point over the cult being a net loss of lives just going into this still stands, though it's now more ambiguous as to whether the math still works.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 17 février 2014 - 01:08 .

[Jaison1986]

I personally have nothing against Alistair as an person, but otherwise, yeah OP, I share the same views. Alistair is actually very unfit to be an warden. He lacks the backbone to do the tough calls the order is aways expected to do. That especially shows during the Avil choice. It took the landsmeet for Alistair to see what the Wardens truly stand for, and when that happened he didn't thought twice before quitting.

I have to admit it also pisses me off how he pretty much worship the wardens despite the horrible things that come along with the package. Decreased life spans, nightmares, death in the deep roads. That is not something someone in their right mind would be proud of.

[Mike3207]

The thing of it is though, all the companions are like that. If your dialogue supports what they believe, your approval will go up with them. If you select dialogue that's hostile to their worldview-you'll lose approval with them. It's not just Alistair-all the companions are like that.

[Jaison1986]

Mike Smith wrote...

The thing of it is though, all the companions are like that. If your dialogue supports what they believe, your approval will go up with them. If you select dialogue that's hostile to their worldview-you'll lose approval with them. It's not just Alistair-all the companions are like that.

And that kind of pissed me off. I wish the approval was more complex, were instead of just saying "you're wrong and end of story", we could have options to elaborate as to why we think differently and try to explain to the companions why I disagree with them. Wich thus reduced us to being agreeable fools, otherwise it would risk having the companions hating us.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

The thing of it is though, all the companions are like that. If your dialogue supports what they believe, your approval will go up with them. If you select dialogue that's hostile to their worldview-you'll lose approval with them. It's not just Alistair-all the companions are like that.

And that kind of pissed me off. I wish the approval was more complex, were instead of just saying "you're wrong and end of story", we could have options to elaborate as to why we think differently and try to explain to the companions why I disagree with them. Wich thus reduced us to being agreeable fools, otherwise it would risk having the companions hating us.

There's options along these lines. I think you're even able to turn disapproval around at certain points, though I can't remember which ones.

[wiccame]

Rodian Power wrote...

wiccame wrote...

He's actually a pretty decent and reasonable guy.

My feeling is that he would be a decent and reasonable guy....if not for the fact that he tells you that the Grey Wardens and their policy of making people drink poison and stabbing anybody who tries to back out are awesome.

No, they aren't. It's sickening that they do it, and it's sickening that he defends it and lets you have it if you're upset that you were forced into it.

I'm not just talking about the "Duncan got what he deserved" dialogue option, which I do understand is pouring salt in a fresh wound for him. I'm also talking other things, such as a dialogue choice from your very first conversation with him. He asks you if you wanted to be a Grey Warden. You can choose to answer that you didn't, and you still don't.

That's minus ten Disapproval right there. Just for saying that you're not happy about being conscripted (and who ever IS happy about that?) and that you aren't thrilled that you're going to be made to fight darkspawn. And that's before you even know what the Joining entails.

Granted, he doesn't yell at you or anything, but that's a lot of disapproval for what I feel is a very understandable sentiment.

The reason I say he's a hypocrite is that he criticizes you for complaining how unfair your situation is when complains about how unfair it is that he has to be king.

Also, that he criticizes you whenever you take an "ends justify the means" approach, when Duncan and the Grey Wardens believe very much that the ends always justify the means. It would make sense for him to talk that way if the Grey Wardens had lines that they wouldn't cross in the name of stopping a Blight, but as far as I know there is NO line the Grey Wardens won't cross because, in their eyes, anything and everything is justified if it somehow helps bring and end to a Blight.

I totally agree with you about the wardens, I find their recruitment methods dispicable. But to Alistair, they and especially Duncan are his saviours, so I see why he will defend their decisions and disapprove of your dislike for them.
In some conversations though with him you can get the sense that he doesn't agree with alot of their policies but he understands them. For instance: when talking about the shortened lifespan you can tell him its a high price and he will agree but add that saving the world is worth it basically.

I've so far managed to sacrifice Isolde, kill the werewolves and Zathrian and recruit the templars and still have a high approval with Alistair, So he isn't that unreasonable with decisions he wouldn't necessarily agree with.

I can't argue about him complaining about being king, because yeah he was being a bit selfish there, but aren't we all to a point?  Our problems always seem worse than everyone elses. It's all too easy to say suck it up to someone and still complain about our own lives.

[GranfalloonMembr]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

The thing of it is though, all the companions are like that. If your dialogue supports what they believe, your approval will go up with them. If you select dialogue that's hostile to their worldview-you'll lose approval with them. It's not just Alistair-all the companions are like that.

And that kind of pissed me off. I wish the approval was more complex, were instead of just saying "you're wrong and end of story", we could have options to elaborate as to why we think differently and try to explain to the companions why I disagree with them. Wich thus reduced us to being agreeable fools, otherwise it would risk having the companions hating us.

I think Sten and Morrigan might not approve if they think you're just telling them what you want to hear. An example: I've been romancing Morrigan this go-round.

Anyway, I was talking with her and asked her what it would take to get on her good side. And she was like "Oh, I think you're already on my good side, but if you want more, I think a compliment is in order," or something like that.

So at first I told her "You are brilliant and amazing," and she kind of sighed and said something like "I suppose stating the obvious will have to do." +1 Approval.

I loaded the game, tried again, and this time said "I am brilliant and amazing." She smiled and said something like "Ah, well, I suppose I didn't specify you compliment me, did I?" +2 Approval.

For the record, there are plenty of things I disagree with Morrigan about, more than there are with Alistair in fact. Like when she talks about how Circle mages or elves in the alienage "allow" themselves to be imprisoned, I'm thinking "Well, what do you suggest they do about it? Not to mention, didn't you 'allow' Flemeth to order you around since you were a child, and didn't you need somebody else's help to get free of her, just like these other people need our help?"

I think the difference is that I get the sense Morrigan can--and does--change for the better, that you can be a good influence on her. Whereas Alistair...doesn't. He can only change for the worse. Hardening him won't make him believe in the Grey Warden way of doing things any less, but it will cause him to have less empathy for others in general. So it's like, I can have him believe in one thing I hate very strongly, or I can have him believe in lots of things I hate. Either way, I'll find it hard to like him.

And I guess another part of the reason I feel the way I do about Alistair--why I hate him so much and don't hate Sten the same amount for talking about how it's okay for the qunari to conquer everybody and cut out mages' tongues and so forth--is because Sten never did anything that felt like a betrayal. When Alistair tells you about the effects of the Joining, one dialogue choice is "I feel betrayed. This is wrong." Well....yes, I did feel betrayed, like I'd been gutpunched when he told me that stuff. Up until then I'd been enjoying talking with him and snarking back and forth, and then he drops this bombshell on me about how everybody who joins the Wardens is deceived, including me, and how that's a good thing. All I could think was "You bastard."

As far as him not being a good fit for the Wardens for all his defense of them, Mike, I agree.

ALISTAIR: "The Grey Wardens rock! If it wasn't for them, who would be there to fight darkspawn? Who would be there to end a Blight? Everything they do is justified! Don't you say anything bad about them!"

RIORDAN: "Hey Alistair, I have an idea. Instead of just straight up killing Loghain, let's have him take the Joining. If he survives, he gets a chance to redeem himself by fighting the archdemon."

ALISTAIR: "WHAT?! NO! Nothing can justify that! He needs to die!"

RIORDAN & PC: "No, we think he could do some good this way, so we're doing it."

ALISTAIR: "No, you're wrong! Both of you are insane! I don't care that I deferred to your leadership, PC, or that you outrank me, Riordan, I'm not going along with this! Okay, I changed my mind! Make me king! If I'm king I'll can order Loghain's execution!"

PC: "Um, yeeeahhhh, that isn't happening Alistair. I didn't think much of you to begin with, and now you're acting all crazy and fanatical, so I'm not supporting you. I'm supporting Anora."

ALISTAIR: "What?! How could you do this to me?! That's it, I'm LEAVING!"

PC & RIORDAN: "But we need you to fight darkspawn and help end the Bli--"

ALISTAIR: "DO IT YOURSELF! I QUIT! I refuse to put aside my personal feelings and make sacrifices to help others! I know I've been telling the PC that they're supposed to do that for the whole game, but I shouldn't have to do it!" [Storms out, heads to a bar, starts a lifelong drinking binge that makes Oghren look straight-edge by comparison]

Speaking of Riordan: he believes in the Grey Warden way of doing things too, of course, and because of that I didn't like him, but I respect him more than Alistair, if only for one reason. When he broke the news of how the archdemon was to be killed, my elf said she had no intention of sacrificing her life (partly because I'd read there was a way of doing it that didn't involve a sacrifice, but also because come on, haven't they taken enough from me already?).

Riordan responded by saying "Well, in the past the guy in charge decided who would kill the archdemon. I'm the guy in charge here...and my decision is that I'll do it. If I can't, though, then one of you will have to."

So at least Riordan was willing to do it himself, give up his life so that neither me nor Loghain would have to. Not that Loghain wasn't willing to do the same, of course. It's like, here's a guy who isn't asking anything of us that he isn't willing to do himself. Alistair, when you come right down to it, expects a lot of us, but when people start expecting the same of him, he falls short. He throws a tantrum and runs away.

[GranfalloonMembr]

wiccame wrote...

Rodian Power wrote...

wiccame wrote...

He's actually a pretty decent and reasonable guy.

My feeling is that he would be a decent and reasonable guy....if not for the fact that he tells you that the Grey Wardens and their policy of making people drink poison and stabbing anybody who tries to back out are awesome.

No, they aren't. It's sickening that they do it, and it's sickening that he defends it and lets you have it if you're upset that you were forced into it.

I'm not just talking about the "Duncan got what he deserved" dialogue option, which I do understand is pouring salt in a fresh wound for him. I'm also talking other things, such as a dialogue choice from your very first conversation with him. He asks you if you wanted to be a Grey Warden. You can choose to answer that you didn't, and you still don't.

That's minus ten Disapproval right there. Just for saying that you're not happy about being conscripted (and who ever IS happy about that?) and that you aren't thrilled that you're going to be made to fight darkspawn. And that's before you even know what the Joining entails.

Granted, he doesn't yell at you or anything, but that's a lot of disapproval for what I feel is a very understandable sentiment.

The reason I say he's a hypocrite is that he criticizes you for complaining how unfair your situation is when complains about how unfair it is that he has to be king.

Also, that he criticizes you whenever you take an "ends justify the means" approach, when Duncan and the Grey Wardens believe very much that the ends always justify the means. It would make sense for him to talk that way if the Grey Wardens had lines that they wouldn't cross in the name of stopping a Blight, but as far as I know there is NO line the Grey Wardens won't cross because, in their eyes, anything and everything is justified if it somehow helps bring and end to a Blight.

I totally agree with you about the wardens, I find their recruitment methods dispicable. But to Alistair, they and especially Duncan are his saviours, so I see why he will defend their decisions and disapprove of your dislike for them.
In some conversations though with him you can get the sense that he doesn't agree with alot of their policies but he understands them. For instance: when talking about the shortened lifespan you can tell him its a high price and he will agree but add that saving the world is worth it basically.

I've so far managed to sacrifice Isolde, kill the werewolves and Zathrian and recruit the templars and still have a high approval with Alistair, So he isn't that unreasonable with decisions he wouldn't necessarily agree with.

I can't argue about him complaining about being king, because yeah he was being a bit selfish there, but aren't we all to a point?  Our problems always seem worse than everyone elses. It's all too easy to say suck it up to someone and still complain about our own lives.

Valid points. The only reason he got to -100 with me is because after feeling betrayed by him and Duncan in my first playthrough, I kind of wanted to see him be miserable, so I did a lot of things I knew would have that effect on him. (For example, just leaving Cailan hanging there in "Return To Ostagar" and watching him rage helplessly about it.) With others, I haven't taken them along if I knew they'd react negatively to what I'd do, and I've been giving them gifts to stay on their good side, except for Wynne.

I've got some Andraste's Grace sitting in my pack to try to help Leliana get over what I'll do to the ashes.

I bought all the Remarkable gems for Shale after being surprised by how much approval I lost for killing Caridin, and did her personal quest.

When I accidentally started a romance with Zevran by telling him I didn't mind him staring at my ass and found myself in the position of having to choose between him and Morrigan, I even had sex with him and told him it'd just be a one-time thing, just so I'd only lose two approval with him instead of like twenty and not have to be presented with an ultimatum any more. And then I gave him the Dalish Gloves.

As for Alistair's reasons for sticking up for the Wardens...I suppose I understand. But even if he's still fairly new, he's been a Warden for six months. He should be a lot less naive by now, or so I would think.

Something that just occurred to me about the recruiting methods: if Japan was able to throw thousands of kamikaze pilots at U.S. forces in WWII, I think that says something about the willingness of human beings to give up their lives for a cause without being tricked into it. I don't think that all kamikazes were enthusiastic volunteers, mind you, but at least they knew what they were in for beforehand, which is more than you can say for Grey Warden recruits.

[wiccame]

It all boils down to the way you go into the game perception wise. And that's fine.

I despise Loghain. In my eyes he is so hell bent on hating the Orlesians, that he is willing to see his king killed, allow Howe to commit such atrocities, hunt the wardens down to extinction and throw the country into chaos. So he can take the throne and rule his way. So no amount of reasoning at the lm would ever make me recruit him.

As for Alistair, I like him and I see a man that on the surface reveres the wardens so much that he is willing to over look how wrong their methods really are. But, I see the little hints that say otherwise, like how when asked about the joining, he wants to tell you more but knows he cant.
I saw the look on his face when Duncan killed Jory and the way he recited the speech before the joining. So really nothing Alistair does would make me hate him, I just work at making him see reason.

[DarthGizka]

Alistair seems to be lawful good, but only on the surface and only as long as things don't concern him personally in any way. If they do then it becomes apparent that he has no backbone and no principles whatsoever. Even his Duncan & Grey Wardens cult evaporates if push comes to shove.

If you don't appease him, you'll lose approval. If you dare object to the conscription fraud of the Grey Wardens then you'll lose approval. If he sets his sights on a female Warden and she doesn't acquiesce, it's -100 approval. If you don't let him kill Loghain then he screams his little head off and runs away to start a new career as a drunkard.

If you watch his reactions closely then it becomes apparent that he doesn't give a flying meow about anything except for his fragile ego. In that regard he's the total opposite of Sten (whom I respect even if I do not agree with him).

[wiccame]

DarthGizka wrote...

Alistair seems to be lawful good, but only on the surface and only as long as things don't concern him personally in any way. If they do then it becomes apparent that he has no backbone and no principles whatsoever. Even his Duncan & Grey Wardens cult evaporates if push comes to shove.

If you don't appease him, you'll lose approval. If you dare object to the conscription fraud of the Grey Wardens then you'll lose approval. If he sets his sights on a female Warden and she doesn't acquiesce, it's -100 approval. If you don't let him kill Loghain then he screams his little head off and runs away to start a new career as a drunkard.

If you watch his reactions closely then it becomes apparent that he doesn't give a flying meow about anything except for his fragile ego. In that regard he's the total opposite of Sten (whom I respect even if I do not agree with him).

if you don't appease any of your companions you lose approval.

I have played as a female warden that has not romanced him and still ended the game as his best friend.

For all the crimes Loghain did I am not surprised he didnt want him to join the wardens.
Loghain is no different, he hated the Orlesians and look what he did to the country just so he could stop them coming in.

[GranfalloonMembr]

wiccame wrote...

DarthGizka wrote...

Alistair seems to be lawful good, but only on the surface and only as long as things don't concern him personally in any way. If they do then it becomes apparent that he has no backbone and no principles whatsoever. Even his Duncan & Grey Wardens cult evaporates if push comes to shove.

If you don't appease him, you'll lose approval. If you dare object to the conscription fraud of the Grey Wardens then you'll lose approval. If he sets his sights on a female Warden and she doesn't acquiesce, it's -100 approval. If you don't let him kill Loghain then he screams his little head off and runs away to start a new career as a drunkard.

If you watch his reactions closely then it becomes apparent that he doesn't give a flying meow about anything except for his fragile ego. In that regard he's the total opposite of Sten (whom I respect even if I do not agree with him).

if you don't appease any of your companions you lose approval.

I have played as a female warden that has not romanced him and still ended the game as his best friend.

For all the crimes Loghain did I am not surprised he didnt want him to join the wardens.
Loghain is no different, he hated the Orlesians and look what he did to the country just so he could stop them coming in.

I must admit that the more I saw of what Loghain had done, I thought more and more "Buddy, as sick as I am of Alistair, you are making it REALLY tempting to just kill you like he wants."

That being said, he undergoes something of a personality change after you recruit him, to a degree. So at least for me, that makes him tolerable. If you put him and the dog in a party together and run through a spot where your companions converse enough times, he'll tell the dog a story about how he had a mabari when he was a kid and he loved her. Then an Orlesian noble came along and took the dog away, because they wanted to breed it with an Orlesian dog. He didn't see the dog again until the noble came back and basically dumped it on his family's doorstep, all sick and neglected and suffering. She died shortly after that. As closed-minded as he is about working with the Orlesians, and as wrong as he is to be that way, stories like that make you see why he turned out the way he did.


Also, while I originally thought that he'd intended to kill Cailan from the start and knew about everything Howe was doing, I recently found this post by David Gaider where he says that isn't entirely true.

(Of course, one thing that he certainly did know about was the elven slaving operation. If you call him on that at the Landsmeet, he'll basically say "Yeah, I made that deal, but this is war, you have to do bad things if you want to win." So even if he's not as bad as I might have thought, he's still pretty bad. I would like to think that you can change him for the better, but perhaps I'm kidding myself, I don't know.)

DarthGizka wrote...

If he sets his sights on a female Warden and she doesn't acquiesce, it's -100 approval.

As many problems as I have with him, I actually don't think he's any worse than other companions as far as this goes. My first playthrough was as a female Warden who was mostly friendly to him, and he didn't try to initiate a romance with her. I had the option of telling him he was handsome but made very sure not to click on it, because I didn't want to start down that road.

But if there's a way to accidentally get him interested and give him the wrong idea, he's not the only one in the party you can do that with. I'll tell you about my accidental romance with Zevran. When I played as an elf I got involved with him because I wanted to.

This time around, though, with my male dwarf, I asked him "Do you stare at everybody like that?" And he said yeah, if somebody looked good to him he did, but if it made me uncomfortable he would stop.

I said "Nah dude, I don't mind". And, unbeknownst to me, that started a romance!

I didn't find out about this until I'd given Zevran the Dalish Gloves and went to talk to Morrigan, who confronted me about spending a lot of time with Zevran. I was like "But I haven't slept with him" and she tells me that isn't the point, I have to choose. So I said "Well, I like you best," so everything was fine with her, but then I go to talk to Zev and he asks if I've found somebody else who's more compatible, and the poor guy looked really hurt. As much as I tried to soften the blow, I lost a ton of approval after I finished talking to him.

"How the hell did I wind up in THIS position?!" I was thinking.

So yeah, as far as major disapproval as a result of rejection goes, and accidentally giving somebody the wrong idea? Alistair's not the only one that can happen with, and you can probably wind up in the same position with Morrigan or Leliana if you click on the wrong dialogue.

Modifié par Rodian Power, 17 février 2014 - 02:27 .

[Jaison1986]

wiccame wrote...

It all boils down to the way you go into the game perception wise. And that's fine.

I despise Loghain. In my eyes he is so hell bent on hating the Orlesians, that he is willing to see his king killed, allow Howe to commit such atrocities, hunt the wardens down to extinction and throw the country into chaos. So he can take the throne and rule his way. So no amount of reasoning at the lm would ever make me recruit him.

As for Alistair, I like him and I see a man that on the surface reveres the wardens so much that he is willing to over look how wrong their methods really are. But, I see the little hints that say otherwise, like how when asked about the joining, he wants to tell you more but knows he cant.
I saw the look on his face when Duncan killed Jory and the way he recited the speech before the joining. So really nothing Alistair does would make me hate him, I just work at making him see reason.

I used to feel the same way about Loghain. I also hated Anora a lot as well, but that was just an first impression for me. Because for example, as much as Anora can be an trechearous viper, she is very competent at her role and someone that needs to be in charge, regardless of my personal feelings. The same kind of thing happened to me regarding Loghain, the more I explored the lore, the plot and the character motivations, I began to understand why Loghain is the person he is, and to understand why he did the things he did. So much it came to an point were I realized that killing him felt pointless, he was already defeated, might as put him in use now that he is at your mercy.

And that is the turning point of Loghain and Alistair. One is very well aware of the pragmatism of the role they fulfill, while the other does everything he can to turn an blind eye to it, because he can't accept the horrible implications that come with the order that he so much adores.

[DarthGizka]

wiccame wrote...

DarthGizka wrote... (regarding Alistair)

If you don't appease him, you'll lose approval. If you dare object to the conscription fraud of the Grey Wardens then you'll lose approval. If he sets his sights on a female Warden and she doesn't acquiesce, it's -100 approval. If you don't let him kill Loghain then he screams his little head off and runs away to start a new career as a drunkard.

If you watch his reactions closely then it becomes apparent that he doesn't give a flying meow about anything except for his fragile ego. In that regard he's the total opposite of Sten (whom I respect even if I do not agree with him).

if you don't appease any of your companions you lose approval.

I have played as a female warden that has not romanced him and still ended the game as his best friend.

I'm always super careful when I navigate the minefield of Alistair's dialogues, but apparently not careful enough. In the next game as a non-warrior I'll leave him to guard the camp and take Barkspawn along instead (he cannot dispel but apart from that he is much more capable, despite not being able to equip loads of über items).

As far as I remember, Alistair was the only companion who required constant appeasement. All the others are much more mature than the failed templar, even Loghain (despite having turned his hate of the Orlesians into a blind cult).

Modifié par DarthGizka, 17 février 2014 - 02:39 .

[wiccame]

Deep down I think Loghain really did what he did because it he felt it was for the good of the country.

I just think what he did, whether for the good of the country or not, is still reprehensible. He did some pretty horrible things, or allowed someone else to do them or turned a blind eye when he found out about them.

As much as I hate the wardens and their ways, why should theirs be treated with more disgust than Loghains. They are both doing what they think is right and for the good of the country.

Don't forget he was also the one that sent Jowan to poison Eamon. He even called you out at the landmeet for killing Howe saying no one deserves to be killed in his own home. Yet he didn't mind so much Howe butchering the Couslands. he even rewrded him for it by giving him the teynir.

[mousestalker]

I have to actively work at alienating Alistair to get his approval to drop. That's partly because I do not use him all that much. I prefer Shale as a tank. If the PC is a sword 'n board then the off tank is usually either Shale or Zevran.

Also, for in camp conversations, what Alistair wants is someone to condole with him about Duncan. He also wants to belong and to not have any one he knows killed. None of that really involves any appeasement on the PC's part. It does require a certain level of empathy and emotional support.