110 réponses à ce sujet

[DarthGizka]

mousestalker wrote...

Also, for in camp conversations, what Alistair wants is someone to condole with him about Duncan. He also wants to belong and to not have any one he knows killed. None of that really involves any appeasement on the PC's part. It does require a certain level of empathy and emotional support.

And next you know he wants tent time... BTDT.

Modifié par DarthGizka, 17 février 2014 - 02:53 .

[wiccame]

I can spot the romance triggers a mile off, they are really not that hard to see. Don't tell him he's handsome, don't tell him to 'try that line on me' when talking about the changes in being a warden, and don't ask him if he thinks your beautiful. And the cutscene triggers are even more easy to spot.

If you trigger one then turn him down I am not suprised he gets upset.

he is no different than the other companions, they will all act the same honestly.

[DarthGizka]

wiccame wrote...

I can spot the romance triggers a mile off, they are really not that hard to see. Don't tell him he's handsome, don't tell him to 'try that line on me' when talking about the changes in being a warden, and don't ask him if he thinks your beautiful. And the cutscene triggers are even more easy to spot.

Yes, but some traps seem to be fairly well hidden. There's no such thing as innocent banter with him... As far as I am aware the only thing that my HNF did wrong was the 'my prince' line after the Redcliffe revelations.

If you trigger one then turn him down I am not suprised he gets upset.

That's why I said he's totally immature.

[wiccame]

Jaison1986 wrote...

wiccame wrote...

It all boils down to the way you go into the game perception wise. And that's fine.

I despise Loghain. In my eyes he is so hell bent on hating the Orlesians, that he is willing to see his king killed, allow Howe to commit such atrocities, hunt the wardens down to extinction and throw the country into chaos. So he can take the throne and rule his way. So no amount of reasoning at the lm would ever make me recruit him.

As for Alistair, I like him and I see a man that on the surface reveres the wardens so much that he is willing to over look how wrong their methods really are. But, I see the little hints that say otherwise, like how when asked about the joining, he wants to tell you more but knows he cant.
I saw the look on his face when Duncan killed Jory and the way he recited the speech before the joining. So really nothing Alistair does would make me hate him, I just work at making him see reason.

I used to feel the same way about Loghain. I also hated Anora a lot as well, but that was just an first impression for me. Because for example, as much as Anora can be an trechearous viper, she is very competent at her role and someone that needs to be in charge, regardless of my personal feelings. The same kind of thing happened to me regarding Loghain, the more I explored the lore, the plot and the character motivations, I began to understand why Loghain is the person he is, and to understand why he did the things he did. So much it came to an point were I realized that killing him felt pointless, he was already defeated, might as put him in use now that he is at your mercy.

And that is the turning point of Loghain and Alistair. One is very well aware of the pragmatism of the role they fulfill, while the other does everything he can to turn an blind eye to it, because he can't accept the horrible implications that come with the order that he so much adores.

I've read the stolen throne and I know what he went through and what drives him to hate the Orlesians so much. 

Come the landsmeet and Alistair is the bad guy for whining about what Loghain did, and how he must die for his crimes and so forth and how he cant see past his hatred for him to see reason? But the same can be said for Loghain. His hatred for the Orlesians basically fueled everything he did. It was the driving force that put him at logger heads with Cailan, and which drove him to do all the despicable things he did. Yet he can be forgiven cause he now has been beaten down and proved that he is not the only one that can save the country? He threw a tantrum just like Alistair, but unlike Alistair his tantrum cost the king, nearly all the wardens, an entire army and peace.

Modifié par wiccame, 17 février 2014 - 03:16 .

[wiccame]

DarthGizka wrote...

wiccame wrote...

I can spot the romance triggers a mile off, they are really not that hard to see. Don't tell him he's handsome, don't tell him to 'try that line on me' when talking about the changes in being a warden, and don't ask him if he thinks your beautiful. And the cutscene triggers are even more easy to spot.

Yes, but some traps seem to be fairly well hidden. There's no such thing as innocent banter with him... As far as I am aware the only thing that my HNF did wrong was the 'my prince' line after the Redcliffe revelations.

If you trigger one then turn him down I am not suprised he gets upset.

That's why I said he's totally immature.

yeah but in his defence, your basically leading the guy on to think he has a chance, and when he's hooked you turn him down.
Are you sure you didn't tell him that him being a prince was thrilling? That will trigger it.

Modifié par wiccame, 17 février 2014 - 03:27 .

[DarthGizka]

wiccame wrote...

Come the landsmeet and Alistair is the bad guy for whining about what Loghain did, and how he must die for his crimes and so forth and how he cant see past his hatred for him to see reason? But the same can be said for Loghain.

Loghain is certainly more self-aware than the dork, and more pragmatic. What Alistair fails to realise is that by killing Loghain personally he also sentences a real warden to death, apart from the consequences for Ferelden as a whole.

If you feed Loghain to the arch lizard then he is just as dead afterwards. But instead of the Hero of Ferelden butchered by a conspiracy at the Landsmeet he will be the Hero of Ferelden who gave his life to end the Blight. Meaning he is a dead hero instead of a dead martyr, and his followers will find it more difficult to heap blame on whoever will sit on the throne. Appeasing Alistair by letting him kill Loghain at the Landsmeet just because he feels like it has the potential to rip the country apart.

Modifié par DarthGizka, 17 février 2014 - 03:45 .

[Jaison1986]

I think Riordan puts it best: "What does loyalty matters? We aren't judges. Kinslayers, blood mages, traitors, rebels, carta thugs, common bandits: Anyone with the skill and the mettle to take up the sword against the darkspawn is welcome among us."

The darkspawn are at our doorstep. What personal feelings and grudges matter? We need every able warden and Loghain can be made one. Of course, this comes from an ingame perspective.

[wiccame]

DarthGizka wrote...

wiccame wrote...

Come the landsmeet and Alistair is the bad guy for whining about what Loghain did, and how he must die for his crimes and so forth and how he cant see past his hatred for him to see reason? But the same can be said for Loghain.

Loghain is certainly more self-aware than the dork, and more pragmatic. What Alistair fails to realise is that by killing Loghain personally he also sentences a real warden to death, apart from the consequences for Ferelden as a whole.

If you feed Loghain to the arch lizard then he is just as dead afterwards. But instead of the Hero of Ferelden butchered by a conspiracy at the Landsmeet he will be the Hero of Ferelden who gave his life to end it. Meaning he is a dead hero instead of a dead martyr, and his followers will find it more difficult to heap blame on whoever will sit on the throne. Appeasing Alistair by letting him kill Loghain at the Landsmeet just because he feels like it has the potential to rip the country apart.

Alistair didn't at that point know about a warden dying. Him leaving the wardens would not have left them short, they had Loghain. So I don't think he felt he was jeapordising them.

See this is where I see this differently.....I do not see Loghain deserving to be seen as a hero, after all he has done. My character when at the landsmeet does not know that a warden will die. And does not see why Loghain should have the chance to be a hero again. She will not recruit him because he does not deserve anything but execution. 

How can it rip the country apart? Loghain's crimes have already been revealed, the country is already in turmoil. If you choose to put Alistair on the throne, Anora proves she is dangerous by not swearing fealty in a tantrum. Or if you keep Anora on the throne then thats fine too cause she is well loved and good at her job.

Modifié par wiccame, 17 février 2014 - 03:43 .

[DarthGizka]

Loghain is still seen by many as the Hero of Ferelden, and many believe the lies he spread about the Grey Wardens being to blame for Cailan's death.

Seeing Loghain not only fighting alongside the Grey Wardens but actually joining them totally defuses that situation. By having him die battling a common enemy instead of at the hand of a deluded fool at the Landsmeet you avoid the winning faction being painted as the enemy who martyred the Hero of Ferelden. That's elementary.

Alistair is too caught up in himself to realise that there are more important things at stake than his petty desire for vengeance.

[sylvanaerie]

Hmm since the game finishes the same regardless of our choices (Blight ended, Archdemon dead), I prefer to play my game how I want to play it. Loghain dies for heinous crimes at the Landsmeet. It's certainly what he intends to do to the warden and Alistair if he wins. And he's spent the last year plotting out my character's death, with bounties. He sells innocent civilians into slavery to fund his army, not to fight darkspawn (which he should be doing), but to fight his fellow nobles who don't want him ruling. Those who oppose him disappear into Howe's dungeons or Ft Drakon.

People who blame Howe for these crimes are just excusing Loghain. The first thing anyone in the military learns is "Chain of Command". The guy at the top is responsible for what his subordinates do in his name. That's the price of being in charge. Anything Howe does is on Loghain's head because he sanctions it. His denials in the Landsmeet only prove to me (if I didn't already think so) of how unfit he is to be in the position he's in.

And since my warden has been dealing with the blight all along with him not only NOT helping, but actively OPPOSING my efforts, I kill him, as my warden sees him as a dangerous liability when the country is already in a crisis of almost entirely his making. I can't blame him for the darkspawn, but I can for what happens afterward. At the very least, he certainly wasn't helping matters.

You can view it however you wish, it's your game, you paid for it, you get to interpret it your way, and you aren't wrong, but I don't agree with your assessment. As I said, there is no 'right or wrong' only interpretation.

Perhaps there should have been terrible consequences for each choice.  Like using the Circle to save Connor saves the boy, but you come back to find Redcliffe decimated.  Or Teagan objects to the slaying of his nephew, getting Eamon to not help you, or Eamon dies because you killed the boy (by severing the link).  By the way, I don't kill Connor, I usually sacrifice Isolde to Jowan's ritual (which costs me even more approval than killing the boy, but I won't do that to a child), but doing that could mean Jowan sucks away her life and makes good his getaway with the power gained, putting you back to square one with one less option.  Or allowing Alistair to walk away (or be executed) at the Landsmeet leaves you with Loghain who ends up stabbing you in the back.  Or Morrigan leaves  you (for any of a number of reasons) and refuses to offer the DR and both Loghain (Alistair) and Riordan die trying to fight the AD.  Or placing Harrowmont in charge of Orzammar means no troop support because he can't inspire the Assembly to get off their apathetic asses.  But it doesn't.  For no choice in the game is there any real consequence that truly affects the game, only its aftermath, and even then Bioware keeps retconning our choices with each new game to the point where, I've decided to see end slides as "rumors of things you may have heard" or possibly just a "tie everything up in a bow for anyone not continuing the series".  I guess it's just as well I don't write for Bioware, I can think up some pretty horrible no win scenarios.

As for him disagreeing with you, hell people disagree all the time.  Being friends doesn't mean you have to 'yes' to everything your friends do.  So he has morals that differ from yours.  When you tell him "I don't want to be a warden" it means you have (at the least) little in common with him, or at the worst you **** all over his views on the matter.  Remember he wanted to be a warden, it was the first choice he was allowed to make for himself, and he looks up to Duncan for caring enough about his fate to let him.  He's a warden, but he was written to be as realistic as possible which means he has feelings and viewpoints that may not coincide with yours, and how you view the wardens.  If you ****** all over his values, expect to get at the least a tonguelashing, just as you would any living person's.  Most of my wardens see being in the wardens as a 'life saving' event, no matter the circumstances they came to be there and pretty much not a punishment.  Even those who disagree with him treat him diplomatically, as he's quite obviously happy to be a warden.  You can view it differently, but I think this says something about the writing/acting put into the character that he isn't just some AI you can do whatever you want to and expect nothing but 'yes' out of, but a wonderfully rich characterization.

And at least when he disapproves/disagrees with you, Alistair has the balls to tell it to your face not just have random "Alistair disapproves" with broken heart symbol.

Of course, he makes mistakes, he's been written to be human.  Do I agree with the tantrum in the Landsmeet and the walkout?  No, bad form on his part, but then since I never see fit to reward Loghain (see my note above about not viewing it as a punishment) for doing what he did (seriously, do you give treats to a dog who piddles on your carpet?) with being made a warden, I don't really see that scene.  The only fate i think Loghain deserves is to have his head mounted outside the palace walls on a pike.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 17 février 2014 - 05:26 .

[Jedimaster88]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Hmm since the game finishes the same regardless of our choices (Blight ended, Archdemon dead), I prefer to play my game how I want to play it. Loghain dies for heinous crimes at the Landsmeet. It's certainly what he intends to do to the warden and Alistair if he wins. And he's spent the last year plotting out my character's death, with bounties. He sells innocent civilians into slavery to fund his army, not to fight darkspawn (which he should be doing), but to fight his fellow nobles who don't want him ruling. Those who oppose him disappear into Howe's dungeons or Ft Drakon.

People who blame Howe for these crimes are just excusing Loghain. The first thing anyone in the military learns is "Chain of Command". The guy at the top is responsible for what his subordinates do in his name. That's the price of being in charge. Anything Howe does is on Loghain's head because he sanctions it. His denials in the Landsmeet only prove to me (if I didn't already think so) of how unfit he is to be in the position he's in.

And since my warden has been dealing with the blight all along with him not only NOT helping, but actively OPPOSING my efforts, I kill him, as my warden sees him as a dangerous liability when the country is already in a crisis of almost entirely his making. I can't blame him for the darkspawn, but I can for what happens afterward. At the very least, he certainly wasn't helping matters.

You can view it however you wish, it's your game, you paid for it, you get to interpret it your way, and you aren't wrong, but I don't agree with your assessment. As I said, there is no 'right or wrong' only interpretation.

Perhaps there should have been terrible consequences for each choice.  Like using the Circle to save Connor saves the boy, but you come back to find Redcliffe decimated.  Or Teagan objects to the slaying of his nephew, getting Eamon to not help you, or Eamon dies because you killed the boy (by severing the link).  By the way, I don't kill Connor, I usually sacrifice Isolde to Jowan's ritual (which costs me even more approval than killing the boy, but I won't do that to a child), but doing that could mean Jowan sucks away her life and makes good his getaway with the power gained, putting you back to square one with one less option.  Or allowing Alistair to walk away (or be executed) at the Landsmeet leaves you with Loghain who ends up stabbing you in the back.  Or placing Harrowmont in charge of Orzammar means no troop support because he can't inspire the Assembly to get off their apathetic asses.  But it doesn't.  For no choice in the game is there any real consequence that truly affects the game, only its aftermath, and even then Bioware keeps retconning our choices with each new game to the point where, I've decided to see end slides as "rumors of things you may have heard" or possibly just a "tie everything up in a bow for anyone not continuing the series".

As for him disagreeing with you, hell people disagree all the time.  Being friends doesn't mean you have to 'yes' to everything your friends do.  So he has morals that differ from yours.  When you tell him "I don't want to be a warden" it means you have (at the least) little in common with him, or at the worst you **** all over his views on the matter.  Remember he wanted to be a warden, it was the first choice he was allowed to make for himself, and he looks up to Duncan for caring enough about his fate to let him.  He's a warden, but he was written to be as realistic as possible which means he has feelings and viewpoints that may not coincide with yours, and how you view the wardens.  If you ****** all over his values, expect to get at the least a tonguelashing, just as you would any living person's.  Most of my wardens see being in the wardens as a 'life saving' event, no matter the circumstances they came to be there and pretty much not a punishment.  Even those who disagree with him treat him diplomatically, as he's quite obviously happy to be a warden.  You can view it differently, but I think this says something about the writing/acting put into the character that he isn't just some AI you can do whatever you want to and expect nothing but 'yes' out of, but a wonderfully rich characterization.

Of course, he makes mistakes, he's been written to be human.  Do I agree with the tantrum in the Landsmeet and the walkout?  No, bad form on his part, but then since I never see fit to reward Loghain (see my note above about not viewing it as a punishment) for doing what he did (seriously, do you give treats to a dog who piddles on your carpet?) with being made a warden, I don't really see that scene.  The only fate i think Loghain deserves is to have his head mounted outside the palace walls on a pike.

Pretty much feel the same way.

My warden also fears that Loghain´s presence will have poisonous effect to his companions and he will not risk it, no matter what Riordan says. "He is too dangerous to be kept alive" pretty much says it all.

I would be nice if you could throw some counter-arguments to Riordan at the landsmeet because for my warden loyalty DOES matter and its one of the most precious things for him. If the roles were reversed and instead it would be Howe at Loghain´s place and given the same chance, my warden would also be VERY mad. Difference is he wouldnt waste time with words and would just throw Howe with the murder knive.

Just because he drank some blood and so doesnt mean he suddenly stopped believing in the the things he has always believed in. Justice, vengeance, love and other things. He never claimed to be "perfect" warden and if the other wardens have a problem with that, they can come to say it to his face.

[RavenousBear]

Jaison1986 wrote...

I think Riordan puts it best: "What does loyalty matters? We aren't judges. Kinslayers, blood mages, traitors, rebels, carta thugs, common bandits: Anyone with the skill and the mettle to take up the sword against the darkspawn is welcome among us."

The darkspawn are at our doorstep. What personal feelings and grudges matter? We need every able warden and Loghain can be made one. Of course, this comes from an ingame perspective.

Then why not ask for some of your companions to drink the darkspawn blood if more Wardens are desperately needed? There are plenty of worthy fighters such as Cauthrien that could become better candidates. I wish there were more dialogue options to question Riordan over it.

[DarthGizka]

sylvanaerie wrote...

 Being friends doesn't mean you have to 'yes' to everything your friends do.

Right, and that's what Alistair doesn't get. If I disagree with someone's opinions that doesn't mean I respect them less or like them less. Ditto if I make an advance and they say that they're not interested.

Alistair takes himself way too seriously. In fact, the only thing that really matters to Alistair when push comes to shove is his childish, unreflected emotionality. Not the Blight or the Grey Wardens, not Ferelden which he as the last Theirin has an obligation to, not even the woman he purports to love.

Modifié par DarthGizka, 17 février 2014 - 06:55 .

[Mike3207]

LoneWolf8588 wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

I think Riordan puts it best: "What does loyalty matters? We aren't judges. Kinslayers, blood mages, traitors, rebels, carta thugs, common bandits: Anyone with the skill and the mettle to take up the sword against the darkspawn is welcome among us."

The darkspawn are at our doorstep. What personal feelings and grudges matter? We need every able warden and Loghain can be made one. Of course, this comes from an ingame perspective.

Then why not ask for some of your companions to drink the darkspawn blood if more Wardens are desperately needed? There are plenty of worthy fighters such as Cauthrien that could become better candidates. I wish there were more dialogue options to question Riordan over it.

It comes down to Alistair not knowing how the joining is done, and I think Riordans says something like there is not enough Archdemon blood. I think there's only enough for one more Joining. I do think it should have been possible to do a Joining for a Warden other than Loghain. After all, if there's enough blood for Loghain, you could have used that blood for Cauthrien or another Warden.

[sylvanaerie]

DarthGizka wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

 Being friends doesn't mean you have to 'yes' to everything your friends do.

Right, and that's what Alistair doesn't get. If I disagree with someone's opinions that doesn't mean I respect them less or like them less. Ditto if I make an advance and they say that they're not interested.

Alistair takes himself way too seriously. In fact, the only thing that really matters to Alistair when push comes to shove is his childish, unreflected emotionality. Not the Blight or the Grey Wardens, not Ferelden which he as the last Theirin has an obligation to, not even the woman he purports to love.

Well, like I said, you're entitled to your interpretation, you paid for the game, you play it however you wish, I just disagree with you.

And that's okay.  There is no right or wrong here, only interpretation.

[DarthGizka]

I don't care how people play their games. However, I think that debating possible interpretations of the facts before us is legitimate, and I tend to believe that two plus two makes four even in magic worlds like Thedas - unless someone manages to convince me otherwise.

What Alistair really cares about becomes clear - beyond a shadow of a doubt - at the Landsmeet, when you refuse to give in to his tantrum. That's when he drops the mask and the ugly truth emerges.

Modifié par DarthGizka, 17 février 2014 - 07:06 .

[sylvanaerie]

Yea, it's just a case of arguing in circles now and pointless. You have your viewpoint and I disagree with it. I'm not going to convince you otherwise, and trust me, you won't convince me of different either. So I'm going to just 'agree to disagree' with you and leave it at that.

[RavenousBear]

Mike Smith wrote...

LoneWolf8588 wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

I think Riordan puts it best: "What does loyalty matters? We aren't judges. Kinslayers, blood mages, traitors, rebels, carta thugs, common bandits: Anyone with the skill and the mettle to take up the sword against the darkspawn is welcome among us."

The darkspawn are at our doorstep. What personal feelings and grudges matter? We need every able warden and Loghain can be made one. Of course, this comes from an ingame perspective.

Then why not ask for some of your companions to drink the darkspawn blood if more Wardens are desperately needed? There are plenty of worthy fighters such as Cauthrien that could become better candidates. I wish there were more dialogue options to question Riordan over it.

It comes down to Alistair not knowing how the joining is done, and I think Riordans says something like there is not enough Archdemon blood. I think there's only enough for one more Joining. I do think it should have been possible to do a Joining for a Warden other than Loghain. After all, if there's enough blood for Loghain, you could have used that blood for Cauthrien or another Warden.

Oh course, there is conveniently not enough Archdemon blood despite only a couple of dozen Wardens in Ferelden. Did Loghain flush the rest down the river or something? While Loghain may have been an excellent general earlier in his career (in game he hardly looks like a competent general at all) but I do not see him having the physical prowess to join the Wardens. He is around 50-60 years old in Origins correct? Even removing he actions in-game, one could argue there are more worthy candidates for the Joining since the supply of Archdemon blood is very low.

[mousestalker]

LoneWolf8588 wrote...


Oh course, there is conveniently not enough Archdemon blood despite only a couple of dozen Wardens in Ferelden. Did Loghain flush the rest down the river or something? While Loghain may have been an excellent general earlier in his career (in game he hardly looks like a competent general at all) but I do not see him having the physical prowess to join the Wardens. He is around 50-60 years old in Origins correct? Even removing he actions in-game, one could argue there are more worthy candidates for the Joining since the supply of Archdemon blood is very low.

Howe probably sold it to dwarven collectors. 

[RavenousBear]

As for Alistair's tantrums, every character complains when you do things they disagree with. I am not sure why Alistair gets the worse rep for being the "whiniest" companion in DA:O. Try playing as a "good" character with Morrigan in your party. Had to use Wynne (the dullest character in my opinion) for about half my playthrough because I was sick of Morrigan's whining.

[sylvanaerie]

He's 50. I get that he has to be on hand for the DR if the warden is female (or refuses to do it personally), but like I said, I feel there should have been consequences in the game, and him having a 50/50 chance to survive the Joining might have been one.

But there isn't. It really does all end up the same.

Alistair gets the worst of it, because he confronts you to your face instead of just taking "Alistair disapproves" broken heart symbols without any explanations.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 17 février 2014 - 07:24 .

[Mike3207]

It might be that Loghain moved it all to Amaranthine. You seem to have all the blood you would ever want in Awakening.

I do remember that Riordan thinks that Loghain destroyed all the blood in Denerim, yet you have enough for Loghain?IDK.

[Jaison1986]

Or it could be the giant archdemon you killed not too long ago. Fresh supply of blood for thousands of joinings.

[sylvanaerie]

Makes me wonder what they will do when the last Archdemon is gone and the blood is used up...

[RavenousBear]

mousestalker wrote...

LoneWolf8588 wrote...


Oh course, there is conveniently not enough Archdemon blood despite only a couple of dozen Wardens in Ferelden. Did Loghain flush the rest down the river or something? While Loghain may have been an excellent general earlier in his career (in game he hardly looks like a competent general at all) but I do not see him having the physical prowess to join the Wardens. He is around 50-60 years old in Origins correct? Even removing he actions in-game, one could argue there are more worthy candidates for the Joining since the supply of Archdemon blood is very low.

Howe probably sold it to dwarven collectors. 

Like Bodahn? That greedy little...