110 réponses à ce sujet

[RavenousBear]

sylvanaerie wrote...

He's 50. I get that he has to be on hand for the DR if the warden is female (or refuses to do it personally), but like I said, I feel there should have been consequences in the game, and him having a 50/50 chance to survive the Joining might have been one.

But there isn't. It really does all end up the same.

Alistair gets the worst of it, because he confronts you to your face instead of just taking "Alistair disapproves" broken heart symbols without any explanations.

Then people would just reload the Landsmeet until Loghain survived the ritual. I do not see the point of these 50/50 survival chances in games.

I think I can see why now since now I remember him confronting the Warden after Connor/Isolde are killed in the Redcliffe questline. Still, if you decide to kill the kidd or his mother, I would expect such a reaction from my him since he used to live there.

[sylvanaerie]

Ugh my original post didn't make sense.

I mean if the randomness was 'locked' to that particular save.  Like he will always die on this game save, or always live, but you won't know till it happens which random event pops up.

I'd just go with whatever the outcome is (if I was forced to recruit him that is), just to see what happens, Alistair's feelings be damned.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 17 février 2014 - 07:46 .

[DarthGizka]

LoneWolf8588 wrote...

Had to use Wynne (the dullest character in my opinion) for about half my playthrough because I was sick of Morrigan's whining.

I find that quite annoying as well, on occasion. For example, if you don't allow Kitty to go back on her word and to possess Amalia anyway then Morrigan will disapprove. That is not in keeping with her usual character, and likely a scripting mistake. Quite a few of her other disapprovals (comments) seem to be out of character as well, probably following a directive like "Morrigan must never, ever approve of anything that could be considered the right thing to do". What makes this even more annoying is the uneven quality of her voice acting. Apparently some of Morrigan's lines are so stupid that not even an excellent actor could pull them off convincingly...

[RavenousBear]

DarthGizka wrote...

LoneWolf8588 wrote...

Had to use Wynne (the dullest character in my opinion) for about half my playthrough because I was sick of Morrigan's whining.

I find that quite annoying as well, on occasion. For example, if you don't allow Kitty to go back on her word and to possess Amalia anyway then Morrigan will disapprove. That is not in keeping with her usual character, and likely a scripting mistake. Quite a few of her other disapprovals (comments) seem to be out of character as well, probably following a directive like "Morrigan must never, ever approve of anything that could be considered the right thing to do". What makes this even more annoying is the uneven quality of her voice acting. Apparently some of Morrigan's lines are so stupid that not even an excellent actor could pull them off convincingly...

The absolute worse was the first time you confront Wynne during the Broken Circle quest. Really Morrigan, there are unknown number of demons, abominations, and other %*^& in the tower and you are trying to provoke the only known mage survivors into a fight? That was idiotic.

Regardless I do not hate any of the companions due to their behavior. The other companions should take lessons from Sten on how to behave during disagreements though.

[RavenousBear]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Ugh my original post didn't make sense.

I mean if the randomness was 'locked' to that particular save.  Like he will always die on this game save, or always live, but you won't know till it happens which random event pops up.

I'd just go with whatever the outcome is (if I was forced to recruit him that is), just to see what happens, Alistair's feelings be damned.

I think that would be an unwise if BW did such things in the future. Could you imagine the rage people would have on the forums?

[sylvanaerie]

LoneWolf8588 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Ugh my original post didn't make sense.

I mean if the randomness was 'locked' to that particular save.  Like he will always die on this game save, or always live, but you won't know till it happens which random event pops up.

I'd just go with whatever the outcome is (if I was forced to recruit him that is), just to see what happens, Alistair's feelings be damned.

I think that would be an unwise if BW did such things in the future. Could you imagine the rage people would have on the forums?

I know right?  Not saying it's optimal, just saying it would have been interesting to me.  I'd probably rage quit as much as the next guy tbh, but would still find it funny.

I could just hear it..."I recruit the guy and he dies!  WTF Bioware!" *press reload*

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 17 février 2014 - 08:21 .

[RavenousBear]

sylvanaerie wrote...

LoneWolf8588 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Ugh my original post didn't make sense.

I mean if the randomness was 'locked' to that particular save.  Like he will always die on this game save, or always live, but you won't know till it happens which random event pops up.

I'd just go with whatever the outcome is (if I was forced to recruit him that is), just to see what happens, Alistair's feelings be damned.

I think that would be an unwise if BW did such things in the future. Could you imagine the rage people would have on the forums?

I know right?  Not saying it's optimal, just saying it would have been interesting to me.  I'd probably rage quit as much as the next guy tbh, but would still find it funny.

I could just hear it..."I recruit the guy and he dies!  WTF Bioware!" *press reload*

If BW really wanted to troll the player there should be a chance when the Warden, Alistair, or Loghain take the final blow against the Archdemon, it wakes up to munch upon him/her and the rest of the party.

Game Over!

Now that would be Hilarious!

[Corker]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Corker wrote...

Rodian Power wrote...

 I am going to defile Andraste's ashes later on (which there really didn't seem to be any reason for beyond "Just do it to be evil")

You can do it to stop further bloodshed.  Agree to defile the Ashes, and I believe the Haven villagers will cease to be hostile toward you.  (Not sure about the cultists in unexplored areas of the caverns.)  It's actually not to hard, I think, to make the case that a human life is morally worth more than a thing - even a magical healing thing like the Ashes.

This is a credible motivation for a character, though I think that character would be pretty shortsighted. The Ashes are valuable because they have the power to save lives, and Eamon's will be the last they save if you do this. Then there's the fact that the cultists are actually a net loss of lives due to the way they treat strangers. Still, if you wanted a non-evil reason for a character to defile the ashes, this still works.

Or did you mean that you simply didn't want to be the one risk/lose lives to take them down? In that case, this really does work.

The Ashes have the potential to save lives - if people can get past all the Guardian nonsense and be judged "worthy." For a pious character who believes that Andraste is guiding the worthy to a miracle, then absolutely save the Ashes.  Or a good character who's nonetheless written off the Haven folk as hopelessly corrupted, the Ashes are a boon that should be preserved, as you say.

But if you've got a Warden of the "while there's life, there's hope" school of thought, then not killing more Haven folks opens up the opportunity for them to maybe go down a different path, do better things - maybe get recruited into the Grey Wardens by an unlikely string of events and save the world someday, who knows?  Once they're dead, they can't possibly redeem themselves.  (Canticle of Transfigurations gives some support that this is a viable line of theology for a Chantry-raised person, anyway.)  (I don't know - if you defile the Ashes but then kill the dragon, can you fight Kolgrim?  Do that, avoid Haven afterwards, and you may have freed the village from the most obvious nefarious influences shaping them.)

That might be way too idealistic for an 'anti hero' character, I freely admit, and obviously two 'good' characters (Leliana and Wynne) really think it's the wrong call.  But like you said - it's credible.  Somebody could think this.

Modifié par Corker, 17 février 2014 - 08:58 .

[GranfalloonMembr]

Jaison1986 wrote...

I think Riordan puts it best: "What does loyalty matters? We aren't judges. Kinslayers, blood mages, traitors, rebels, carta thugs, common bandits: Anyone with the skill and the mettle to take up the sword against the darkspawn is welcome among us."

The darkspawn are at our doorstep. What personal feelings and grudges matter? We need every able warden and Loghain can be made one. Of course, this comes from an ingame perspective.

Here's the thing: while Loghain actually turns out to acquit himself quite well against the darkspawn if given the chance, there was no way to be certain that they could trust him. I mean okay, he wasn't very likely to betray everybody with a darkspawn horde at the gates because he would gain absolutely nothing by it and lose everything dear to him...

...but if the Grey Wardens are supposed to stand for anything at all, then they need to be discriminating about who they bring in. Otherwise they will get a lot of people who are actually evil or mentally unstable or whatever, the kinds of people whom Alistair accused my character of being. And they'll get people like Sophia Dryden and Avernus, with the former staging a revolt as much due to her own bitterness over being denied the throne as any concern for what the sitting king was doing, and the latter thinking nothing of experimenting on people and summoning demons in order to figure out how to keep the Joining from being so deadly. (Good goal, horrible methods of trying to reach it.)

I like seeing people redeemed, and I would rather try to rehabilitate than punish if my judgment isn't clouded by an emotion, but in this case how can anybody know that Loghain's been redeemed just by joining the order, or by no longer having a devil in his ear by the name of Rendon Howe? Even if you can count on him against the darkspawn, will you be able to count on him afterwards, for the rest of his life? As a Grey Warden, he'll have a certain amount of influence. And the whole reason for taking him down in the first place was because he'd demonstrated quite thoroughly that he couldn't be trusted with too much power.

EDIT TO ADD: I still prefer having him in my party over Alistair because he isn't a blind apologist for the Grey Wardens, but I never claimed to approve of everything he did.

sylvanaerie wrote...

And at least when he disapproves/disagrees with you, Alistair has the balls to tell it to your face not just have random "Alistair disapproves" with broken heart symbol.

Um, no, he doesn't, not unless you really ****** him off. First conversation, if he asks you if you wanted to be a Warden and you tell him "No, and I still don't," he says "Fair enough..." after some hesitation, and it's -10 Disapproval after you finish talking to him.

As for agreeing to disagree, no, there are some things you don't agree to disagree on with friends. Like if I had a friend who agreed with most of my political views and liked the same games and stuff I did, and then that friend shocked me by saying something like "You know, I think racial segregation was actually a good idea..." then I would immediately lose all respect for that person and my opinion of them would change completely.

Similarly, when Alistair says that it is totally okay to kill people and to trick them into joining the order when they don't know that doing so is going to either end their lives immediately or plague them forever after, no, I can't agree to disagree. I refuse to be friends with somebody that twisted.

You may enjoy playing the game as if your Warden is happy to be there, but you're ignoring the fact that plenty of people aren't happy and didn't have a choice. People like to talk about how much Jory sucks because he freaked out and he was nervous out in the Wilds and so on, but come ON: I defy any of those people to not be nervous if their lives were actually in danger or to not freak out if they'd just seen somebody they'd fought alongside die painfully and then have somebody try to make them drink the same stuff that killed him.

With people heading for execution, yes, getting conscripted gives them at least a chance to live longer. But those aren't the only people Duncan and the others go after. They lie to people and trick them into thinking that yes, joining the Grey Wardens IS a path to--using the poor word choice of Jory here--"glory" and that yeah, you should totally sign up. And then they spring this Joining on you. And if you try to back out--which is what Jory was clearly doing, since he was literally BACKING AWAY from Duncan after his sword was drawn instead of advancing on him, you get killed on the spot to prevent you from talking.

If you're so high on seeing people executed for their crimes, then how is THAT not a crime worthy of execution?

If the people who participated in that were to have an epiphany when they realize that it's wrong and that it's unnecessary to boot, then I'd be a lot more forgiving. But they never do. Duncan doesn't, Alistair doesn't, and there's nothing you can do to make them.

Actually, the one thing I'm now concerned about is that in Awakening, Loghain visits you at the keep and tells you that they've assigned him to look for new recruits. I want to believe that he wouldn't do the same things Duncan did, wouldn't be as manipulative and deceitful, but considering his track record...

LoneWolf8588 wrote...

As for Alistair's tantrums, every character complains when you do things they disagree with. I am not sure why Alistair gets the worse rep for being the "whiniest" companion in DA:O. Try playing as a "good" character with Morrigan in your party. Had to use Wynne (the dullest character in my opinion) for about half my playthrough because I was sick of Morrigan's whining.

I did use Morrigan for a lot of quests, as a good character. Apart from losing approval for going out of your way to help people and the occasional sarcastic comment about kittens in trees or whatever, I never had her completely lose it over anything I did. Like when I took her to Redcliffe Castle and did the Fade ritual, she didn't yell at me later on about how that was stupid and I should've just killed the boy to be sure. And with the Anvil, which I haven't seen Alistair react to but which I've read here that he does, when I said it needed to be destroyed she didn't yell at me for throwing away an army of golems which could make a huge difference in the fight against the darkspawn.

It's much easier to get on Alistair's bad side than the others.

Modifié par Rodian Power, 17 février 2014 - 11:57 .

[GranfalloonMembr]

Re. Morrigan in the Circle Tower: I did take her there on my first playthrough. But having played the Mage origin story, I happened to agree with a lot of what she said about how lousy it was that the Chantry had these mages on a leash, even if I disageed with her claim that all they needed to do in order to gain freedom was choose to.

But she made some good points, I thought, so I said to her "Perhaps you are right."

And then Wynne flips out over the fact that I have an APOSTATE with me--*GASP!!!!*--and immediately starts trying to kill me.

That, along with Wynne giving you an earful if you romance Zevran or Morrigan about "You're a Grey Warden and this is not appropriate conduct and blah blah blah" is why I dislike Wynne far more than Morrigan. Because damn it, apostates are people too, and who the hell is she to dictate who I can and can't spend time with? My character's already lost enough freedom as a result of falling for Duncan's sales pitch (or just getting dragged along against his will on my second playthrough when he didn't fall for it), I'm sure as hell not going to give up the freedom to love whoever I want and act on it.

[RavenousBear]

Rodian Power wrote...

Re. Morrigan in the Circle Tower: I did take her there on my first playthrough. But having played the Mage origin story, I happened to agree with a lot of what she said about how lousy it was that the Chantry had these mages on a leash, even if I disageed with her claim that all they needed to do in order to gain freedom was choose to.

But she made some good points, I thought, so I said to her "Perhaps you are right."

And then Wynne flips out over the fact that I have an APOSTATE with me--*GASP!!!!*--and immediately starts trying to kill me.

That, along with Wynne giving you an earful if you romance Zevran or Morrigan about "You're a Grey Warden and this is not appropriate conduct and blah blah blah" is why I dislike Wynne far more than Morrigan. Because damn it, apostates are people too, and who the hell is she to dictate who I can and can't spend time with? My character's already lost enough freedom as a result of falling for Duncan's sales pitch (or just getting dragged along against his will on my second playthrough when he didn't fall for it), I'm sure as hell not going to give up the freedom to love whoever I want and act on it.

The problem is she chose to have this debate at the most inopportune time. It is a conversation appropriate in camp, not when the tower is overwhelmed by demons and abominations. With the tone of her voice, she wanted to incite Wynne and the mages into a fight, calling them cattle corraled in the circle, etc... I need more information about the situation, and Wynne and her mages know more about the situation than I do.

I am not going to defend Wynne at all since she is the dulliest character in my opinion (she has a particularly idiotic line in Unrest In The Alienage if you are CE), but Morrigan seemed to fail the realize the situation at hand when she started her argument. Her lack of social skills are partly to blame for this since Flemeth raised her in the Korcari Wilds.

I do partly agree with her stance on the Circle being controlled by the mages, but as I said before, it is simply the wrong time for her to discuss about during a moment of crisis.

[GranfalloonMembr]

LoneWolf8588 wrote...

Rodian Power wrote...

Re. Morrigan in the Circle Tower: I did take her there on my first playthrough. But having played the Mage origin story, I happened to agree with a lot of what she said about how lousy it was that the Chantry had these mages on a leash, even if I disageed with her claim that all they needed to do in order to gain freedom was choose to.

But she made some good points, I thought, so I said to her "Perhaps you are right."

And then Wynne flips out over the fact that I have an APOSTATE with me--*GASP!!!!*--and immediately starts trying to kill me.

That, along with Wynne giving you an earful if you romance Zevran or Morrigan about "You're a Grey Warden and this is not appropriate conduct and blah blah blah" is why I dislike Wynne far more than Morrigan. Because damn it, apostates are people too, and who the hell is she to dictate who I can and can't spend time with? My character's already lost enough freedom as a result of falling for Duncan's sales pitch (or just getting dragged along against his will on my second playthrough when he didn't fall for it), I'm sure as hell not going to give up the freedom to love whoever I want and act on it.

The problem is she chose to have this debate at the most inopportune time. It is a conversation appropriate in camp, not when the tower is overwhelmed by demons and abominations. With the tone of her voice, she wanted to incite Wynne and the mages into a fight, calling them cattle corraled in the circle, etc... I need more information about the situation, and Wynne and her mages know more about the situation than I do.

I am not going to defend Wynne at all since she is the dulliest character in my opinion (she has a particularly idiotic line in Unrest In The Alienage if you are CE), but Morrigan seemed to fail the realize the situation at hand when she started her argument. Her lack of social skills are partly to blame for this since Flemeth raised her in the Korcari Wilds.

I do partly agree with her stance on the Circle being controlled by the mages, but as I said before, it is simply the wrong time for her to discuss about during a moment of crisis.

Hmmm, yes, timing is important.

And to be honest, I was kind of annoyed at how when dealing with Redcliffe's blacksmith, any option besides "Attack and kill him" results in a few points of Disapproval. Even though making a deal to look for his daughter costs us nothing because we're eventually headed to the castle anyway, even though we're not making any guarantees about how she's still alive, and even though he's absolutely no use to us dead. It's like "Really Morrigan, it's like you WANT these militia to go into battle against the zombies with their armor falling to pieces or something."

[Mike3207]

The thing of it is though-the Warden is a leader. In a military company like the one the Warden is leading, you want your troops to have high morale. It actually increase their ratings if your companions have high morale. I can't see how increasing you companions rivalry to the point where they want to fight you in camp is going to help toward fighting the Blight.

[GranfalloonMembr]

I'd have that concern if disapproval resulted in penalties to their performance, similar to debuffs, but as far as I know it doesn't. So even if I were using Alistair frequently (and I'm not, usually going with Shale or Oghren as tank), I don't care too much about how his constitution could be better, but isn't.

Modifié par Rodian Power, 18 février 2014 - 02:23 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Makes me wonder what they will do when the last Archdemon is gone and the blood is used up...

The only reason the Joining is strictly necessary is because of the Archdemons who enable it. Even the Wardens admit that if that wasn't a problem, any sufficiently skilled warrior could do their job. (Though not as well in the abscence of the Taint resistance.)

That said, I think the Wardens also know how to use magic to enhance other sources of darkspawn blood to make that sufficient.

[Toasted Llama]

This whole post can be summed up as:

 

"Oh my god how DARE my companions have different opinions than mine and express their discomfort with my ideals and ways of life? How DARE they be flawed and be hypocrites, whiners, emotional and stupid like every other human being?! WHY AREN'T THEY PERFECT?! And especially Alistair; that guy is another Grey Warden! He should think in the exact same way I think and if he doesn't; he should understand, comprehend and accept every single argument I provide."
 

This is not hate on Alistair (well, actually it is, because he's the only one being pointed at right now), but this hate should count for just about any companion because the things mentioned are human flaws. They are human beings; they can't be perfect and each and every person acts differently. But hating on them because they are flawed and whatever they do or say that doesn't agree with your point of view is wrong? ... What?

In fact I believe Alistair is one of the few who doesn't attack or try to kill you when he reaches -100 approval and disagrees with the Warden. He even stays with the party and follows your orders untill the Landsmeet. Yet I saw a lot of people who would gladly kill him for his flaws. I just... I can't... I mean... What?!


Also, I lol'd when I saw someone write that they 'don't disrespect or dislike a friend who disagrees' or something among those lines, while the majority of the people that agree with the OP are just as bluntly disrespectful towards Alistair (and other companions).

[Shadow Fox]

I don't care how people play their games. However, I think that debating possible interpretations of the facts before us is legitimate, and I tend to believe that two plus two makes four even in magic worlds like Thedas - unless someone manages to convince me otherwise.

What Alistair really cares about becomes clear - beyond a shadow of a doubt - at the Landsmeet, when you refuse to give in to his tantrum. That's when he drops the mask and the ugly truth emerges.

In his eyes you are rewarding someone who betrayed his King for selfish reasons,left his men to die and killed the first person to care about him.

 

And you're surprised he's upset?

[Mike3207]

In his eyes you are rewarding someone who betrayed his King for selfish reasons,left his men to die and killed the first person to care about him.

 

And you're surprised he's upset?

 

It's really not a issue that he's upset. I mean, my PCs don't have a reason to like Loghain much either. The Wardens are all about using anyone can kill darkspawn, something Duncan was very pointed about on more than one occasion. Alistair just turned out not to have learned that lesson, 

[Shadow Fox]

It's really not a issue that he's upset. I mean, my PCs don't have a reason to like Loghain much either. The Wardens are all about using anyone can kill darkspawn, something Duncan was very pointed about on more than one occasion. Alistair just turned out not to have learned that lesson, 

That's the organization's philosophy yes but as with most groups not all members can or will follow it besides the Warden's already broke the Wardens' political policy so it's a little late to start adhering to their dogma at that point.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

...not killing more Haven folks opens up the opportunity for them to maybe go down a different path, do better things - maybe get recruited into the Grey Wardens by an unlikely string of events and save the world someday, who knows? 

 

Don't be silly. That'd never happen. >.>

 

OP: As far as Alistair is concerned, he has a very rose-tinted glasses view of the Wardens at times. He believes only good people should be recruited and definitely not criminals (so he can't have known the story of how Duncan got recruited; he also didn't understand what Duncan saw in Daveth), and despite his dialogue where he says that sometimes the Wardens must do some dubious things, he obviously thinks that Grey Wardens should be knights in shining armour wherever possible.

 

If romancing the PC and questioned by Morrigan, he'll be evasive about the priorities of ending the Blight (what a Warden should do) vs saving the one he loves (what Alistair would do).

 

It's part of his personality, so it's understandable he doesn't get along with strictly pragmatic or selfish characters. Unfortunately, for those who really don't like him, he's also the only character in the game you can't remove from your party until the Landsmeet.

[Shadow Fox]

Don't be silly. That'd never happen. >.>

 

OP: As far as Alistair is concerned, he has a very rose-tinted glasses view of the Wardens at times. He believes only good people should be recruited and definitely not criminals (so he can't have known the story of how Duncan got recruited; he also didn't understand what Duncan saw in Daveth), and despite his dialogue where he says that sometimes the Wardens must do some dubious things, he obviously thinks that Grey Wardens should be knights in shining armour wherever possible.

 

If romancing the PC and questioned by Morrigan, he'll be evasive about the priorities of ending the Blight (what a Warden should do) vs saving the one he loves (what Alistair would do).

 

It's part of his personality, so it's understandable he doesn't get along with strictly pragmatic or selfish characters. Unfortunately, for those who really don't like him, he's also the only character in the game you can't remove from your party until the Landsmeet.

I've never understood that: after arriving in Lothering you aren't forced to keep Alistair in your party people who dislike him can simply leave him at camp and not interact with him.

[Jaison1986]

In his eyes you are rewarding someone who betrayed his King for selfish reasons,left his men to die and killed the first person to care about him.

 

And you're surprised he's upset?

 

And in my eyes I'm giving Loghain an worse punishment then death, being sealed into a life of misery fighting darkspawn non stop and dying alone at the deep roads.

 

So, I'm not exactly sure what Alistair means when he says I'm granted Loghain with an honor.

[Mike3207]

And in my eyes I'm giving Loghain an worse punishment then death, being sealed into a life of misery fighting darkspawn non stop and dying alone at the deep roads.

 

So, I'm not exactly sure what Alistair means when he says I'm granted Loghain with an honor.

 

He's pretty clear about it at the Landsmeet. He'll tell you-"Joining the Wardens is a honor, not a punishment". He thinks it a honor to join the Wardens, and he doesn't want Loghain to be given that honor. Alistair never sees the above things mentioned as being a punishment when he did it, so he's unlikely to see it as a punishment for Loghain.

[Shadow Fox]

And in my eyes I'm giving Loghain an worse punishment then death, being sealed into a life of misery fighting darkspawn non stop and dying alone at the deep roads.

 

So, I'm not exactly sure what Alistair means when he says I'm granted Loghain with an honor.

So basically only your view should matter in this case and Alistair should suck it up and deal with it?

[Jaison1986]

So basically only your view should matter in this case and Alistair should suck it up and deal with it?

 

Oh, so bending my knee and giving in to his tautrum is an much better choice? Because when I use logic, I can't see it in any way how poisoning myself, ruining my lifespan, being haunted by nightmares every night and go to die at the deep roads while becoming an ghoul as an honor. So yes, he needs to suck it up and deal with it, because someone here still needs to see the situation logically.